What if class wrestling....

[pin2win1]

Then we would take half the teams out of the Merrillville Semi State I'm all for that.

finally a logical argument for a class system

[KarlHungus]

karl, you have to take the quote in context..... to me from the origional post he was answering why multi class states did not change back to one class.

 

Maybe he was being sarcastic, but it was still funny nonetheless

 

But it is also the reason why people don't want Indiana to have class sports.  I honestly respect your stance, you want the state tournament to find out who the best is regardless of outside factors.  I say those outside factors are enough to make the change to classes.  40 states have decided to do it and Indiana does it already for other sports.

[cwajga]

Mr Y2CJ41

 

I looked at your data and found the following statistics.

 

The 7 largest schools in the state have a total enrollment of 24938 and in 11 years had 157 state qualifiers.

 

To get close to the same enrollment you need to add up the 72 smallest schools that have a total enrollment of 24759, these 72 schools had 159 sate qualifiers in the same 11 years.

 

Would you not agree that a small school wrestler actually has a better chance of becoming a state qualifier than a wrestler from the very largest schools?

 

I Miss Indiana High School Wrestling

[KarlHungus]

Mr Y2CJ41

 

I looked at your data and found the following statistics.

 

The 7 largest schools in the state have a total enrollment of 24938 and in 11 years had 157 state qualifiers.

 

To get close to the same enrollment you need to add up the 72 smallest schools that have a total enrollment of 24759, these 72 schools had 159 sate qualifiers in the same 11 years.

 

Would you not agree that a small school wrestler actually has a better chance of becoming a state qualifier than a wrestler from the very largest schools?

 

I Miss Indiana High School Wrestling

 

That proves his point....according to many single class supporters each school should have an equal chance of getting state qualifiers regardless of enrollment.  In the past 11 years according to your data the largest 7 schools have 10 times the chance of producing a state qualifier.

[cewrestlingfan]

Mr Y2CJ41

 

I looked at your data and found the following statistics.

 

The 7 largest schools in the state have a total enrollment of 24938 and in 11 years had 157 state qualifiers.

 

To get close to the same enrollment you need to add up the 72 smallest schools that have a total enrollment of 24759, these 72 schools had 159 sate qualifiers in the same 11 years.

 

Would you not agree that a small school wrestler actually has a better chance of becoming a state qualifier than a wrestler from the very largest schools?

 

I Miss Indiana High School Wrestling

 

That proves his point....according to many single class supporters each school should have an equal chance of getting state qualifiers regardless of enrollment.  In the past 11 years according to your data the largest 7 schools have 10 times the chance of producing a state qualifier.

 

I don't agree with this.  I think each student should have an equal chance to be a state qualifier regardless of enrollment.

[KarlHungus]

Mr Y2CJ41

 

I looked at your data and found the following statistics.

 

The 7 largest schools in the state have a total enrollment of 24938 and in 11 years had 157 state qualifiers.

 

To get close to the same enrollment you need to add up the 72 smallest schools that have a total enrollment of 24759, these 72 schools had 159 sate qualifiers in the same 11 years.

 

Would you not agree that a small school wrestler actually has a better chance of becoming a state qualifier than a wrestler from the very largest schools?

 

I Miss Indiana High School Wrestling

 

That proves his point....according to many single class supporters each school should have an equal chance of getting state qualifiers regardless of enrollment.  In the past 11 years according to your data the largest 7 schools have 10 times the chance of producing a state qualifier.

 

I don't agree with this.  I think each student should have an equal chance to be a state qualifier regardless of enrollment.

 

The data shows that that they don't have an equal chance.

[cewrestlingfan]

karl, you have to take the quote in context..... to me from the origional post he was answering why multi class states did not change back to one class.

 

Maybe he was being sarcastic, but it was still funny nonetheless

 

But it is also the reason why people don't want Indiana to have class sports.  I honestly respect your stance, you want the state tournament to find out who the best is regardless of outside factors.  I say those outside factors are enough to make the change to classes.  40 states have decided to do it and Indiana does it already for other sports.

 

Are any of the other individual sports in Indiana seperated by classes?  I don't understand the need to have an individual sport classed, but still agree that the team portion could be classed to be more fair for the smaller schools.

[KarlHungus]

karl, you have to take the quote in context..... to me from the origional post he was answering why multi class states did not change back to one class.

 

Maybe he was being sarcastic, but it was still funny nonetheless

 

But it is also the reason why people don't want Indiana to have class sports.  I honestly respect your stance, you want the state tournament to find out who the best is regardless of outside factors.  I say those outside factors are enough to make the change to classes.  40 states have decided to do it and Indiana does it already for other sports.

 

Are any of the other individual sports in Indiana seperated by classes?  I don't understand the need to have an individual sport classed, but still agree that the team portion could be classed to be more fair for the smaller schools.

 

No other individual sports are classed.  Logistically however, it might be hard to run a classed team tournament and unclassed individual.

[Y2CJ41]

Mr Y2CJ41

 

I looked at your data and found the following statistics.

 

The 7 largest schools in the state have a total enrollment of 24938 and in 11 years had 157 state qualifiers.

 

To get close to the same enrollment you need to add up the 72 smallest schools that have a total enrollment of 24759, these 72 schools had 159 sate qualifiers in the same 11 years.

 

Would you not agree that a small school wrestler actually has a better chance of becoming a state qualifier than a wrestler from the very largest schools?

 

I Miss Indiana High School Wrestling

Not technically because you are basing it off the total enrollments at each school and not how many entries each school has in the state tournament.  No matter the size of the school the max number of entries in the state tournament is 14 for each school.  If your school has 100 kids you get 14 entries and if your school has 4000 students you get 14 entries.  If each school was allowed to enter unlimited entries(as with ISWA state) then I would 100% agree with you!

[cewrestlingfan]

karl, you have to take the quote in context..... to me from the origional post he was answering why multi class states did not change back to one class.

 

Maybe he was being sarcastic, but it was still funny nonetheless

 

But it is also the reason why people don't want Indiana to have class sports.  I honestly respect your stance, you want the state tournament to find out who the best is regardless of outside factors.  I say those outside factors are enough to make the change to classes.  40 states have decided to do it and Indiana does it already for other sports.

 

Are any of the other individual sports in Indiana seperated by classes?  I don't understand the need to have an individual sport classed, but still agree that the team portion could be classed to be more fair for the smaller schools.

 

No other individual sports are classed.  Logistically however, it might be hard to run a classed team tournament and unclassed individual.

 

I agree that it would be difficult logistacally and that is probably why there hasn't been any movement to to a class system for sports that are considered to be individual sports.

[Y2CJ41]

If class wrestling does happen, so will class golf, track, cross country, etc.  I'm not naive enough to think that the IHSAA would do something special just for wrestling.  I'm also not naive enough to realize that those other individual sports aren't discussing these same things.  I do remember a big topic about class track a couple years ago on a track forum.

[AJ]

 

I don't understand what your trying to say in your first response.  I am saying that the IHSAA should have the best interest of the schools and students they represent.

 

On the second point, I am talking about the idea of classed sports in general.  Many states have had classes for 50 + years.   If it was a bad idea states would have abandoned it long ago.

 

My point was that what state organizations, like the IHSAA, are suppose to do, and what they actually do, can be two completely different things.

 

Your second point.  One could use your logic and say if single class was a bad idea for Indiana, Indiana would have abondoned it a long time ago.

 

 

 

 

Like I said earlier, class wrestling is one of those things were there are too many variables for someone or something to predict what will happen.  The only way to find out if it will hurt or help, is if it is implemented.  Some people want to take the risk, while others do not.

[KarlHungus]

 

I don't understand what your trying to say in your first response.  I am saying that the IHSAA should have the best interest of the schools and students they represent.

 

On the second point, I am talking about the idea of classed sports in general.  Many states have had classes for 50 + years.   If it was a bad idea states would have abandoned it long ago.

 

My point was that what state organizations, like the IHSAA, are suppose to do, and what they actually do, can be two completely different things.

 

Your second point.  One could use your logic and say if single class was a bad idea for Indiana, Indiana would have abondoned it a long time ago.

 

 

 

 

Like I said earlier, class wrestling is one of those things were there are too many variables for someone or something to predict what will happen.  The only way to find out if it will hurt or help, is if it is implemented.  Some people want to take the risk, while others do not.

 

You could use that logic but I think your line about fearing change applies more.

[fearless fly]

I didn't realize how confused I was until I read all these posts.

 

 

ff

[Fabio Jr.]

Personally, Class Wrestling needs to happen, you say that it does not matter if u are a 2a or 1a champ,  lets say we have 2 classes, you argue we cannot find a true champion and that hinders our wrestling, but lets look at the most sought after recruits from last year and where they are from?

 

States Represented in Intermats Top 100 High School Recruits (Compiled 2007 http://intermatwrestle.com/high_school/ranking/top100_commit.aspx)

1 OH 11

2 PA 9

3 NJ 8

4 IA 7

4 KS 7

5 CA 6

5 MN 6

6 WA 5

6 IL 5

7 OR 4

7 MI 4

8 UT 3

8 NY 3

9 DE 2

9 CO 2

9 IN 2

9 MO 2

9 WV 2

9    WI 2

9    FL 2

10 TX 1

10 MD 1

10 NC 1

10 ND 1

10 SD 1

10 AL 1

10 WY 1

10 VA 1

 

Out of the 28 states represented Indiana had 2 kids make the top 100 (Andrew Howe and Brennan Cosgrove), which puts us at 9th, while  Ohio had over 5x that amount, class wrestling must really suck,  im sure the kids over there that are div 2 state champs but still manage to go to a Big Ten Powerhouse are heart broken they were not true state champions.

 

Indiana needs to realize WE SUCK AS A WHOLE, and by suck i mean we are not at the level of OHIO, ILLINOIS, PA, NJ....and guess what they are all classed. By doubling the State Qualifiers and allowing smaller schools a chance to earn a championship and garner national credibility which can help send them to an Iowa, Iowa State, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, etc... we allow our state to become more recognized and get more attention and allow even more kids for better opportunities after high school

 

I as a former wrestler want our current generation to get attention of the college coaches, and not the trines and Manchester but the D1 powerhouses

 

sure we have had our howes escabedos and tsirtis' for each one of those we had, ohio, pa, il all had 3-5x that amount

 

just thought i would throw this little argument out there, i am passionate for IN to succeed in this sport, more so am i tired of hearing these ohio people say how bad we are and being an Indiana state champ is comparable to being a qualifier in Ohio or maybe placing...

 

 

 

[NickS]

Personally, Class Wrestling needs to happen, you say that it does not matter if u are a 2a or 1a champ, lets say we have 2 classes, you argue we cannot find a true champion and that hinders our wrestling, but lets look at the most sought after recruits from last year and where they are from?

 

Out of the 28 states represented Indiana had 2 kids make the top 100 (Andrew Howe and Brennan Cosgrove), which puts us at 9th, while Ohio had over 5x that amount, class wrestling must really suck, im sure the kids over there that are div 2 state champs but still manage to go to a Big Ten Powerhouse are heart broken they were not true state champions.

 

Indiana needs to realize WE SUCK AS A WHOLE, and by suck i mean we are not at the level of OHIO, ILLINOIS, PA, NJ....and guess what they are all classed. By doubling the State Qualifiers and allowing smaller schools a chance to earn a championship and garner national credibility which can help send them to an Iowa, Iowa State, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, etc... we allow our state to become more recognized and get more attention and allow even more kids for better opportunities after high school

 

I as a former wrestler want our current generation to get attention of the college coaches, and not the trines and Manchester but the D1 powerhouses

 

sure we have had our howes escabedos and tsirtis' for each one of those we had, ohio, pa, il all had 3-5x that amount

 

just thought i would throw this little argument out there, i am passionate for IN to succeed in this sport, more so am i tired of hearing these ohio people say how bad we are and being an Indiana state champ is comparable to being a qualifier in Ohio or maybe placing...

 

 

 

 

There are only 13 states that have more top 100 recruits than Indiana. 6 States have the same number of top 100 recruits. So that means there are 27 (2 states don't have wrestling I think right?) that are behind Indiana. Pretty solid for a single-class state. You think OH, PA, NJ, have more college wrestlers is because they happen to reward more state champions? No, the answer has to do with the fact that their just better than us. Ohio doesn't get more recruits because they reward more champions. It's because they have more kids that do better than every other state on the national level.

[NickS]

I've put together the state-by-state results at Fargo Junior Nationals for the past 5 years. Here's how they ranked top to bottom with points accrued.

 

1. Iowa 223

2. New Jersey 214

3. Pennsylvania 212

4. Illinois 200

5. Ohio 197

6. Missouri 173

7. Minnesota 150

8. California 146

9. Oklahoma 97

10. Oregon 86

11. Indiana 76 <<<---------

12. New York 75

13. Michigan 70

14. Colorado 68

15. Idaho 64

16. Washington 64

17. Florida 63

18. Utah 59

19. Kansas 58

20. Delaware 52

21. Virginia 48

22. Georgia 34

23. Arizona 33

24. Texas 32

25. Wisconsin 32

26. North Carolina 27

27. North Dakota 20

28. Massachusetts 17

29. Maryland 15

30. Montana 15

31. Connecticut 13

32. Puerto Rico 11

33. Nebraska 10

34. Alaska 9

35. South Dakota 9

36. Alabama 7

37. West Virginia 7

38. New Mexico 6

39. Tennessee 3

40. Hawaii 2

41. Rhode Island 2

42. Louisiana 1

 

These don't even include the states that failed to produce an all-american. Indiana ranks behind just 10 states, while ahead of 37 (?) other states that have wrestling. So how's a class system the answer when we're ahead more classed states than what we're behind?

[Fabio Jr.]

look at the top 5 and compare those scores to ours too big of a gap just because u have more teams under us doesnt mean we are better i could have told you we had a better program than colorado my point is that the higher ranked states all find a way to make classes work and its helping there wrestlers succeed and get great opportunities after high school, to wrestle at a top college. Throw that with all of Y2's Data you stubborn classless supporters can really say all they want is one champion cause its a True champion, (when in fact, it is not)

[dpetty]

At this time we lack depth I am not sure class wrestling will fix that.  What I mean is after are top four or in some weights the top two everyone else are not in the same league.  After being in charge of the IN IL dual I had several conversations with them and the guys felt like it helped their state.  On the dual team level I think it would really help us build a solid fan base.  People love a team and even though I love wrestling for the individuality after listening to coaches who have been to dual team state and the kids it seems they felt it was even more exciting.  Class dual team state might be the answer because you have too many people who would not switch the individual format. 

[Y2CJ41]

Winning a team title affects more people than winning an individual title.  When a team does well, the managers, coaches, administrators, and the non-varsity wrestlers all get recognized.  When an individual does well he's the only one that gets recognition.  I would rather have classes for both, but team state classes would be a step in the right direction.

[littlevito]

I would be in favor of changing the Team State format to a class system.  I have also talked to a few coaches from teams that compete in Team State year in and year out, and a few of them wouldn't mind seeing a 2 class system or maybe even a 3 class system for the team portion.  But all of us agreed to keep the individual series the way it is.

[IMAWRESTLER]

I attended an allstar camp in Ohio this weekend and there were kids from NJ, OH, PA, IL,IN, MI, and many of the other class states.  Indiana is doing it right we are making great strides!  It all starts with the coaching, we are attracting great coaches we just need to get more kids in those rooms.  Numbers are down from where they were a year ago.  The elite clubs need to work together to succeed!

[SnatchSingle]

Exactly right.

 

It is just low number of wrestlers.  Class isn't going to help anything.

I want to see who the actual Indiana High School state champion is at each weight class.  Not see two or three of them.  And wonder who is the REAL state champ.

It takes too much time and everything to split it up into class champions.

 

There is no need for it.

 

Best wrestler wins, if he is 2 A then so be it, if he happens to be 5 A then right on.  Go out and wrestle to see who is the actual STATE champion.

[mockdad79]

I can't help but think that if you made it say 3 classes, that you would create more interest and enthusiasm which in turn would put more kids on the mat.

[TheAncientElder]

OK, now lets take all of the figures posted on this thread and sort them out.

 

How many of the class 1 through 10 state champions, Junior National place winners, etc., have gone on to college, based on their placing at any of these tournaments?

 

And when you have recapped all of the data, so what?

Are you looking to get these wrestlers into a college based on their HS accomplishments or build your resume as a coach?

 

TheAncientElder (TAE)

 

The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana.

I wear my Fez with pride.