pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Y2, you just cant wrop your mind around that fact that i don't care about trying to make a fair system because it can't be achieved. Even under a class system people are going to be at a disadvantage.... the schools with 741 are still going to struggle getting kids to state (if they are in the big school class) where as a school with 735 won't all because they have 6 less students. And the schools wil 200 or 300 are still going to struggle as well under your system... all your system does is says hey lets draw a line and make it easier for the kids who are just a few schools under that line to make it to state. Why does Ohio have class wrestling? I dunno I have not asked anyone from Ohio, but according to you it was made that way in 1971.. back that i would agree there would be a difference between a large school and a small school because there was not as much off season wrestling going on in 1971 like there is today. Therefore I would say most wrestlers only were able to practice against those who went to their schools in 1971. Why does Conseco still see out for basketball and not wrestling... well umm even a brain dead person could figure that out... maybe it has something to do with Hoosier Hysteria... ummmm you know basketball being something that the state of Indiana is known for. I mean i hat to admit it but more people care about basketball than wrestling and are willing to watch two great teams play even if they have no affiliation with those two teams. Not as many people will do the same for wrestling in this state. Most people only go to state because they are there to cheer on a person or a team (or to party if you are a student). And yes class basketball did hurt Indiana basketball in the minds of some. Before they used to broacast the basketball games on tv my dad used to listen to the state finals on the radio... now however, he does not even turn on the games when they are on tv. When did this change, oh around the same year basketball in Indiana was classed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 are you really that obtuse to miss the whole point of my post? My point is that big and small is a very subjective term that can only be assigned when there are certain perameters that defines them. At this point we have no perameters and in my mind and in others mind as well, small might be large and large might be small. Every classed sport in every state in the union deals with this. Obviously there are parameters. actually I don't think we call schools big or small based off class i think we just say you are in this class because you are in this percentage of enrollment. And even then we do not have such perameters in wrestling... last i knew we just had one class... so big and small is subjective. No one said any classed system is 100%. But it would be a far more equitable system and the IHSAA should be in favor of ideas that benefit a majority of its membership. It is not the stated goal of the tournament to find the best. Then what is the stated goal of the tournament? I mean i thought we started football playoffs to determine who was the best football team in the state as opposed to letting the media decide? Also can you show me where the stated goals say that the goal of the state tournament is to make it fair for as many schools as possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 The football play-offs don't find the best team in the state though. Why even have the play-offs if we don't really know who the best team in the state is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 How do football playoffs not find the best team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 It should be the goal of IHSAA to have a system that "is as equitable as possible" to the majority of its members. Nearly every other state in the union realized that classed system is the best way to acheive this goal decades ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 How do football playoffs not find the best team? Because a 4A team might be better then a 5A. Or a 1A for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 It should be the goal of IHSAA to have a system that "is as equitable as possible" to the majority of its members. Nearly every other state in the union realized that classed system is the best way to acheive this goal decades ago. I always thought that a state moved to a class system because it was more profitable, but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I think the class system works fine for the team sports and would also be good for the wrestling team tournament. However, I am opposed to a class system for the individual tournament. It might be for selfish reasons, but I like it that there is only 1 individual state champion per weight class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 So since a fair system can't be 100% implemented, we should just go to the most unfair of systems? I find that argument pretty absurd that if we can't achieve a 100% effectiveness we shouldn't even try! Go tell a kid that if he can't get 100% on his test to not even do it. Should Josh Harper quit wrestling now that he can't win 100% of his matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 i'll say this, in sports where you have to have an entire team to win it yes then "fairness" should come into play because size does effect the team aspect of sports, therefore I would be more than ok with a classed team tourney. However every individual wrestler in this day and age has the same opportunity to win state no matter how big or small their school is. They just have to be willing to dedicate as much time to wrestling as wrestlers from the larger schools do. Now yeah some students at smll schools play multiple sports and it makes it harder, but umm wasn't Steven Sandefer a 3 sport athlete when he won state last year? So that is not even a fair excuse. As for Y2, you still can not comprehend the fact that sports is not about "fairness" when it comes to championships... it is about winning and finding the best. Let me say this very clearly, fairness be darned, forget it, it has no place in sports. Until you understand that is my position you will not understand my point. I understand your position, I understand you want fairness. I get it, I was the one who actually was able to point out the differences in our positions. However, I also know that fairness can not occur under your system at all. However, every student has the chance to get 100 percent, and every wrestler has the chance to win 100 percent of their matches, just like under this system, every wrestler willing to put in enough work and sacrifice other things in their lives (this includes other sports) has a shot at the state title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 It should be the goal of IHSAA to have a system that "is as equitable as possible" to the majority of its members. Nearly every other state in the union realized that classed system is the best way to acheive this goal decades ago. I always thought that a state moved to a class system because it was more profitable, but I could be wrong. I doubt that any state athletic association would admit any decision they made was for increasing profit. They are non-profit organizations. I'm not naive enough to think $$ doesn't factor into their decisions. Is the IHSAA bucking the rest of the country by not classing wrestling and other sports because of tradition?? I doubt it Is the IHSAA not classing wrestling because they it will make more money??? I really doubt it Is the IHSAA not classing wrestling because the association is very conservative and afraid to make even minor changes (wrestlebacks) let alone have a classed system like the rest of the country? Much more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 The IHSAA is concerned about making profits in the sports that they can in order to cover for the losses that they make in other sports. While non-profit does mean not making money, it certainly does not mean they are willing to lose money.... the goal is to break even. So yes money is a huge issue with the IHSAA despite being a non-profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 i'll say this, in sports where you have to have an entire team to win it yes then "fairness" should come into play because size does effect the team aspect of sports, therefore I would be more than ok with a classed team tourney. However every individual wrestler in this day and age has the same opportunity to win state no matter how big or small their school is. They just have to be willing to dedicate as much time to wrestling as wrestlers from the larger schools do. Now yeah some students at smll schools play multiple sports and it makes it harder, but umm wasn't Steven Sandefer a 3 sport athlete when he won state last year? So that is not even a fair excuse. As for Y2, you still can not comprehend the fact that sports is not about "fairness" when it comes to championships... it is about winning and finding the best. Let me say this very clearly, fairness be darned, forget it, it has no place in sports. Until you understand that is my position you will not understand my point. I understand your position, I understand you want fairness. I get it, I was the one who actually was able to point out the differences in our positions. However, I also know that fairness can not occur under your system at all. However, every student has the chance to get 100 percent, and every wrestler has the chance to win 100 percent of their matches, just like under this system, every wrestler willing to put in enough work and sacrifice other things in their lives (this includes other sports) has a shot at the state title. "Sports is not about fairness when it comes to championships"??? When competing for a championship I would hope you would want as fair a system in place as possible. "Let me say this very clearly, fairness be darned, forget it, it has no place in sports." Amazing statement!?!!? I hope you don't actually coach kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 The IHSAA is concerned about making profits in the sports that they can in order to cover for the losses that they make in other sports. While non-profit does mean not making money, it certainly does not mean they are willing to lose money.... the goal is to break even. So yes money is a huge issue with the IHSAA despite being a non-profit Thats why I said I would not be so naive to think that money did not play into decisions they made. So why wouldnt they class wrestling and other sports in order to make more money if that is the reason they do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 However every individual wrestler in this day and age has the same opportunity to win state no matter how big or small their school is. They just have to be willing to dedicate as much time to wrestling as wrestlers from the larger schools do. So you go back to the small school wrestlers just aren't working hard enough then right? As for Y2, you still can not comprehend the fact that sports is not about "fairness" when it comes to championships... it is about winning and finding the best. Then why do over 40 states have class wrestling? You have yet to answer thsi question Let me say this very clearly, fairness be darned, forget it, it has no place in sports. Ok then, lets just have ONE weight class. To me its not fair that a 100lb kid is expected to compete, but according to you lets throw that out the window and find a real TRUE state champion of wrestling. Until you understand that is my position you will not understand my point. I understand your position, you don't care about the kids, you care about your person vendetta for the one true champion. High school athletics is for the kids, not the fans or the coaches. I understand your position, I understand you want fairness. I get it, I was the one who actually was able to point out the differences in our positions. However, I also know that fairness can not occur under your system at all. Again, if we cannot have 100% fairness we shouldn't even try at all or even work towards it? If you can't win 100% of your matches, should you even try? If you can't get 100% on a test should you even try to achieve 90% on it? However, every student has the chance to get 100 percent, and every wrestler has the chance to win 100 percent of their matches, just like under this system, every wrestler willing to put in enough work and sacrifice other things in their lives (this includes other sports) has a shot at the state title. Should those kids quit after they don't achieve the 100%? According to you if you can't achieve 100% you shouldn't even try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Again, what is the goal of a class system? Is it so that the "little" guys can feel good about themselves? Frankly, this is what the main argument for it is boiling down to. Sorry, but this is the wrong reason to implement such a system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 First off way to twist words Karl.... yes you should play by the rules and be fair that way... but making a "fair system" is not what sports is about and nor should it be. Last I knew high school sports was about life lessons as well as everything else. Well one thing I have learned is that life is not fair, in fact it is the opposite. Just looke at going to college, if you are rich you mom and dad can pay it for you, if you are poor the government can pay it for you, but if you are in the middle well you pay for it yourself. Now I could have said forget school because they system is unfair, but i didn't I decided to pay for it myself and am a semester away from a masters. I overcame despite life not being fair to me in that reguard and a few others. A to your other post... who says that class wrestling will automatically equal more profits? Have you done a study on it? Would the extra admission cover the costs of running the extra venues? Maybe it would actually result in a loss for a sport like wrestling. I am not sure, I have not done a study on it nor will I ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Again, what is the goal of a class system? Is it so that the "little" guys can feel good about themselves? Frankly, this is what the main argument for it is boiling down to. Sorry, but this is the wrong reason to implement such a system. A system that is as fair as possible is the wrong reason to implement classes??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Yes it is very wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 A system that is as fair as possible is the wrong reason to implement classes??? Uh yeah, the goal should be about improving the wrestling product. A class system doesn't do that. Like what pin2win1 said, life's not fair. So why is there so much inclination to make sports so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 So as coaches and teachers we should teach the kids that life isn't fair? That is what we should be preaching to the kids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 First off way to twist words Karl.... yes you should play by the rules and be fair that way... but making a "fair system" is not what sports is about and nor should it be. Last I knew high school sports was about life lessons as well as everything else. Well one thing I have learned is that life is not fair, in fact it is the opposite. Just looke at going to college, if you are rich you mom and dad can pay it for you, if you are poor the government can pay it for you, but if you are in the middle well you pay for it yourself. Now I could have said forget school because they system is unfair, but i didn't I decided to pay for it myself and am a semester away from a masters. I overcame despite life not being fair to me in that reguard and a few others. A to your other post... who says that class wrestling will automatically equal more profits? Have you done a study on it? Would the extra admission cover the costs of running the extra venues? Maybe it would actually result in a loss for a sport like wrestling. I am not sure, I have not done a study on it nor will I ever. I don't know if it would equal more profits or not... i was using what wcs145 said about why they went to classes? Why wouldn't you want to do a study? If it would result in a loss it would bolster your argument? Are you afraid that it would actually result in more money being made like it has for football and thus hurt your argument? Are you afraid of real data? I don't think i am twisting your words, I'm quoting you from this post and you say "but making a "fair system" is not what sports is about and nor should it be" . Are you really serious that you don't want as fair system as possible to compete in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 So you go back to the small school wrestlers just aren't working hard enough then right? not what i said y2, way to put words in my mouth... the correct statement would be that "The person who did not win state did not work hard enough to win state whether they be from a big or small school" However this does not mean they did not work hard. Instead it just means they did not work hard enough. Then why do over 40 states have class wrestling? You have yet to answer thsi question Can't answer it for you... I have not talked to representatives of the 40 states.... who knows their reasons. We can speculate, but until we talk to them we will not know the answers for sure. Ok then, lets just have ONE weight class. To me its not fair that a 100lb kid is expected to compete, but according to you lets throw that out the window and find a real TRUE state champion of wrestling. I thought we covered this one already.... apparently you have forgotten... see previous posts. (i also thought this was established as being one of the dumbest arguments for class wrestling, please lets keep this converstation intelligent) I understand your position, you don't care about the kids, you care about your person vendetta for the one true champion. High school athletics is for the kids, not the fans or the coaches. you are right for once... it is.... and every kid has the chance to win a state title, no one is at a disadvantage under the current system. Again, if we cannot have 100% fairness we shouldn't even try at all or even work towards it? If you can't win 100% of your matches, should you even try? If you can't get 100% on a test should you even try to achieve 90% on it? Not what i said, stop putting words in my mouth. You and Karl do such a great job of that. What I said is that your system is very flawed and actually does very little to promote fairness for a majority of teams in Indiana, all it will do is make the team just under the break off to have a chance at state if winning is about numbers as you state. Should those kids quit after they don't achieve the 100%? According to you if you can't achieve 100% you shouldn't even try. Not if you are a coach that instill a strong work ethic and character in your wrestlers, then they will overcome adversity. Or they could instead take your road and whine and complain that the other guy was more muscular or had better technique and they need to class wrestlers based off ability to make it more fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 (Whistle Blows) Stalemate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 A system that is as fair as possible is the wrong reason to implement classes??? Uh yeah, the goal should be about improving the wrestling product. A class system doesn't do that. Like what pin2win1 said, life's not fair. So why is there so much inclination to make sports so? How do you know it won't improve the product? I would argue that it would spur a renewed interest in many small schools. Much like class basketball has done at Triton, Oregon-Davis, and countless other small community schools that have had deep runs and been able to compete in as fair a system as possible for a state title. If interest increased because of class, then the product should improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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