KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 (Whistle Blows) Stalemate. oh were just getting started Xcard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 So as coaches and teachers we should teach the kids that life isn't fair? That is what we should be preaching to the kids? yes that is what should be taught.. then followed up with if you want to suceed you have to overcome the adversity. Or you could teach your kids life is fair and then they can go through a huge crisis when they realize life isn't fair. But if you do think life is fair, may i suggest you come down to Indy sometime later in this semester and see the kids suffering in a hospital no fault of their own? Why wouldn't you want to do a study? If it would result in a loss it would bolster your argument? Are you afraid that it would actually result in more money being made like it has for football and thus hurt your argument? Are you afraid of real data? multiple reason, first because I am no buissness major I would not be able to do a proper study and I am sure much of my data would be flawed and the time I put into it would be wasted time. Secondly time, I have 400 hours of work to do in a hospital as well as 3 classes to work on over the next 17 weeks. As well as a host of other reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 So as coaches and teachers we should teach the kids that life isn't fair? That is what we should be preaching to the kids? The message should be, it's the journey that's important not the destination. Win or lose, what do you get out of wrestling? How much stronger of a person does it make you? What have you learned? This is what the message is, not wins and losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 They way it was going last night, I thought this would be around 20+ pages already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Sorry xcard... but i do believe that your signature states you are not an official... therefore your call is just as valid as a wrestlers fans in the stands ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 pin, I'm honestly trying to understand your side of the debate. I am not trying to twist your words. You may say you don't know the answer why 40 states have class wrestling but if you are honest with yourself you will come to the same conclusion that I have. There is a class system for high school athletes because those states (and Indiana in the case of many sports) have determined that having classes is in the best interest of the schools and students in which they represent. If it hurt the association, schools, or students other states would have abandoned classed systems decades ago. This is not a new fangled idea. It is tried and tested across the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 A system that is as fair as possible is the wrong reason to implement classes??? Uh yeah, the goal should be about improving the wrestling product. A class system doesn't do that. Like what pin2win1 said, life's not fair. So why is there so much inclination to make sports so? How do you know it won't improve the product? I would argue that it would spur a renewed interest in many small schools. Much like class basketball has done at Triton, Oregon-Davis, and countless other small community schools that have had deep runs and been able to compete in as fair a system as possible for a state title. If interest increased because of class, then the product should improve. With all the data that I've seen, it's a hit and miss. Sure Triton and Oregon-Davis may have renewed interest, but I'm sure there are big schools that have lost interest since the class inception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 How do you know it won't improve the product? I would argue that it would spur a renewed interest in many small schools. Much like class basketball has done at Triton, Oregon-Davis, and countless other small community schools that have had deep runs and been able to compete in as fair a system as possible for a state title. If interest increased because of class, then the product should improve. With all the data that I've seen, it's a hit and miss. Sure Triton and Oregon-Davis may have renewed interest, but I'm sure there are big schools that have lost interest since the class inception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 A system that is as fair as possible is the wrong reason to implement classes??? Uh yeah, the goal should be about improving the wrestling product. A class system doesn't do that. Like what pin2win1 said, life's not fair. So why is there so much inclination to make sports so? How do you know it won't improve the product? I would argue that it would spur a renewed interest in many small schools. Much like class basketball has done at Triton, Oregon-Davis, and countless other small community schools that have had deep runs and been able to compete in as fair a system as possible for a state title. If interest increased because of class, then the product should improve. With all the data that I've seen, it's a hit and miss. Sure Triton and Oregon-Davis may have renewed interest, but I'm sure there are big schools that have lost interest since the class inception. Who??? Why would it decrease interest in big schools? Class basketball didn't effect there ability to compete? Are you afraid if Mishawaka doesn't get pummel LaVille anymore at sectionals that they may lose some interest in wrestling at Mishawaka? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 So you go back to the small school wrestlers just aren't working hard enough then right? not what i said y2, way to put words in my mouth... the correct statement would be that "The person who did not win state did not work hard enough to win state whether they be from a big or small school" However this does not mean they did not work hard. Instead it just means they did not work hard enough. Ok let me break this down for you, approximately 90% of the state champions have been from big schools, and 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools. You state that only the hard workers earn these honors. Therefore, the small school kids aren't working as hard as the big school kids or the numbers would be closer to being equal. Ok then, lets just have ONE weight class. To me its not fair that a 100lb kid is expected to compete, but according to you lets throw that out the window and find a real TRUE state champion of wrestling. I thought we covered this one already.... apparently you have forgotten... see previous posts. (i also thought this was established as being one of the dumbest arguments for class wrestling, please lets keep this converstation intelligent) But you keep going back to you don't want a fair system and I say lets go to the least fairest system possible. Why not have 10 or 5 or 2 weight classes? I understand your position, you don't care about the kids, you care about your person vendetta for the one true champion. High school athletics is for the kids, not the fans or the coaches. you are right for once... it is.... and every kid has the chance to win a state title, no one is at a disadvantage under the current system. So schools with more coaches don't have an advantage over schools with less coaches? A kid with more practice quality practice partners doesn't have an advantage over kids with less partners? Again, if we cannot have 100% fairness we shouldn't even try at all or even work towards it? If you can't win 100% of your matches, should you even try? If you can't get 100% on a test should you even try to achieve 90% on it? Not what i said, stop putting words in my mouth. You and Karl do such a great job of that. What I said is that your system is very flawed and actually does very little to promote fairness for a majority of teams in Indiana, all it will do is make the team just under the break off to have a chance at state if winning is about numbers as you state. How am I putting words in your mouth? You are stating if we cannot achieve 100% in something that we shouldn't even try to achieve 25 or 50% in it. Should those kids quit after they don't achieve the 100%? According to you if you can't achieve 100% you shouldn't even try. Not if you are a coach that instill a strong work ethic and character in your wrestlers, then they will overcome adversity. Or they could instead take your road and whine and complain that the other guy was more muscular or had better technique and they need to class wrestlers based off ability to make it more fair. So you are saying that under a class system I won't work hard as a coach? Are you saying the small school wrestlers won't work as hard if there is a class system? Are you saying Jimtown doesn't work as hard as Warren Central in football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 karl.... the reason I will not answer the 40 state question is because I can not make an informed opinion on it, all i can do is speculate as to why it would be that way. However, I have only lived in Indiana, and i was born after many of these states went to classes. You may be right as to that being the reason, but i normally try not to over speculate things. If I were to specualte, i would say there are 3 possible choices. 1) Money could be at the heart of it, but once again I do not know the data on the issue, they might lose money from it. But one thing I have learned in the world is that money is a very influential aspect in most decisions 2) Because they decided to class all sports so wrestling go lumped in with everything else and was classed 3) The states got tired of people like ys complaining so they made it somewhat more "fair" Which is right, I can't claim to know the answer because i was not at the heart of the decision making process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 So basically it was money and whining that caused many states to go to classed athletics? WOW, I thought the state associations were for what is best for the state's athletics, but according to you they just want money and give in to whiners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 There is a class system for high school athletes because those states (and Indiana in the case of many sports) have determined that having classes is in the best interest of the schools and students in which they represent. Best interest of the schools and students, or the state organization? We believe that our governing body does not do things with the best interest of the sport, student, or school. If it hurt the association, schools, or students other states would have abandoned classed systems decades ago. This is not a new fangled idea. It is tried and tested across the country. It has not succeded throughout the country. It is not like all the states with class wrestling are growing and booming with wrestlers. Class wrestling is one of those issues that the only way to know if it would be good or bad, would be to try it for a period of time. Debating it will not convince anyone because there are examples of success and failure on both sides. It does make for great passionate debates however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 karl.... the reason I will not answer the 40 state question is because I can not make an informed opinion on it, all i can do is speculate as to why it would be that way. However, I have only lived in Indiana, and i was born after many of these states went to classes. You may be right as to that being the reason, but i normally try not to over speculate things. If I were to specualte, i would say there are 3 possible choices. 1) Money could be at the heart of it, but once again I do not know the data on the issue, they might lose money from it. But one thing I have learned in the world is that money is a very influential aspect in most decisions 2) Because they decided to class all sports so wrestling go lumped in with everything else and was classed 3) The states got tired of people like ys complaining so they made it somewhat more "fair" Which is right, I can't claim to know the answer because i was not at the heart of the decision making process. 1) Money surely is a factor. But if classing sports was bad for the sport or bad for schools or bad for kids, other states would have abandoned it. 2) I agree, the IHSAA should class all sports or class no sports. It is either about finding out who the very best is no matter what or it is acknowledging that there are many advantages larger schools have and trying to create as fair a system as possible. 3) My guess is that it probably didn't get to the point of people complaining in those other states. Other state athletic assoiciations most likely saw the problems that different enrollments caused and either started their schools classed or didn't need to be convinced that it was best for the schools, sports and students they represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Why haven't states that have class wrestling gone back to single class wrestling since according to you it is unsuccessful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Why haven't states that have class wrestling gone back to single class wrestling since according to you it is unsuccessful? People hate change and power associations hate to admit they were wrong. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 There is a class system for high school athletes because those states (and Indiana in the case of many sports) have determined that having classes is in the best interest of the schools and students in which they represent. Best interest of the schools and students, or the state organization? We believe that our governing body does not do things with the best interest of the sport, student, or school. If it hurt the association, schools, or students other states would have abandoned classed systems decades ago. This is not a new fangled idea. It is tried and tested across the country. It has not succeded throughout the country. It is not like all the states with class wrestling are growing and booming with wrestlers. Class wrestling is one of those issues that the only way to know if it would be good or bad, would be to try it for a period of time. Debating it will not convince anyone because there are examples of success and failure on both sides. It does make for great passionate debates however AJ, I don't understand what your trying to say in your first response. I am saying that the IHSAA should have the best interest of the schools and students they represent. On the second point, I am talking about the idea of classed sports in general. Many states have had classes for 50 + years. If it was a bad idea states would have abandoned it long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 ok last post for awhile..... Anyway, you can twist my words and make me seem like the bad guy Y2, but it is not because i think the small schools do not work hard enough. There are 14 state champions each year and 14 people work hard enough to win state. The other 3000 or so wrestlers however did not work hard enough. This is true whether they are from a small school or a large school. End of discussion with me on that issue. We have weight classes because there is a safety issue involved. If you can tell me that you are afraid to wrestle Penn, Mishawaka, LN, or any other large school because they could put you in the hospital based off of the size of their student body alone then I will say lets go to 1 weight class. kids only required to be in their wrestling room 3 months a year, after that they can go get all the competition that they want and even get help from other coaches if they wish. 20 years ago I would agree that competition and coaching was an issue, but i don't think that is the case anymore. BTW when I wrestled at the huge school of Mishawaka, we were told that they only allowed for 2 paid wrestling coaches, the rest were volunteers. I believe football allowed 3 paid coaches 10 years ago as well. Most of the coaches coached because they loved coaching not because they got a great paycheck. As for fairness.... as i have said i don; care about fairness. I was just pointing our that even your system was not all that fair and it failed to achieve it's goal. On the other hand mine achieves its goal the the very least 9 times out of 10. Yes I will admit, fluke wins and loses do sometimes happen. Finally, let me ask you this... when your team prepares for a team that they know they can easily beat do they prepare as hard as they do when they have to face a team that is going to be really tough to beat? It is my expereince that the harder the competition you face the harder you are more likely to prepare, and the more work you put it. And AJ is going to get a ton of cool points just for this post People hate change and power associations hate to admit they were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 So you can't answer that, because if it was failing they would definitely correct the situation. Just as the single class system was failing they went to a classed system. If a classed system didn't help their state they would have gone back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Why haven't states that have class wrestling gone back to single class wrestling since according to you it is unsuccessful? People hate change and power associations hate to admit they were wrong. ;D Good one! People do hate change, that is obvious. But I doubt that there is an outcry in the classed states that are clamoring for a one class system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 ok last post for awhile..... Anyway, you can twist my words and make me seem like the bad guy Y2, but it is not because i think the small schools do not work hard enough. There are 14 state champions each year and 14 people work hard enough to win state. The other 3000 or so wrestlers however did not work hard enough. This is true whether they are from a small school or a large school. End of discussion with me on that issue. We have weight classes because there is a safety issue involved. If you can tell me that you are afraid to wrestle Penn, Mishawaka, LN, or any other large school because they could put you in the hospital based off of the size of their student body alone then I will say lets go to 1 weight class. kids only required to be in their wrestling room 3 months a year, after that they can go get all the competition that they want and even get help from other coaches if they wish. 20 years ago I would agree that competition and coaching was an issue, but i don't think that is the case anymore. BTW when I wrestled at the huge school of Mishawaka, we were told that they only allowed for 2 paid wrestling coaches, the rest were volunteers. I believe football allowed 3 paid coaches 10 years ago as well. Most of the coaches coached because they loved coaching not because they got a great paycheck. As for fairness.... as i have said i don; care about fairness. I was just pointing our that even your system was not all that fair and it failed to achieve it's goal. On the other hand mine achieves its goal the the very least 9 times out of 10. Yes I will admit, fluke wins and loses do sometimes happen. Finally, let me ask you this... when your team prepares for a team that they know they can easily beat do they prepare as hard as they do when they have to face a team that is going to be really tough to beat? It is my expereince that the harder the competition you face the harder you are more likely to prepare, and the more work you put it. And AJ is going to get a ton of cool points just for this post People hate change and power associations hate to admit they were wrong. You're the one that is hating a proposed change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 ok i was going to stop posting for awhile but i could not pass this up Good one! People do hate change, that is obvious. But I doubt that there is an outcry in the classed states that are clamoring for a one class system. of course not, because nearly everyone gets a ribbion I am kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I don't care, Class, no class How would they run the finals on diferant weekends or run them at the same time Ill? I'm a fan of the Spot light in Indy Just wondering. Then we would take half the teams out of the Merrillville Semi State I'm all for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 karl, you have to take the quote in context..... to me from the origional post he was answering why multi class states did not change back to one class. Maybe he was being sarcastic, but it was still funny nonetheless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 ok i was going to stop posting for awhile but i could not pass this up Good one! People do hate change, that is obvious. But I doubt that there is an outcry in the classed states that are clamoring for a one class system. of course not, because nearly everyone gets a ribbion I am kidding LOL glad we can finish the debate with a smile ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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