Drooke Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Hey pin I'm trying to be politcally correct. But, that would probably actually happen. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 2 things Y2, ok now play fair and give me a list of state champs by school and I am sure i could find 51 NACO, actually Milan played Muncie Central not SBC that year. Yes I know it was a shock to me when I found out, but it took moving down by Muncie for me to realize that the Movie was not really all that accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naco228 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 NACO, actually Milan played Muncie Central not SBC that year. Yes I know it was a shock to me when I found out, but it took moving down by Muncie for me to realize that the Movie was not really all that accurate. .....um...i dont know what you are talking about lol did you mean to point that to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I found 768 state champions from big schools, that is without counting schools with only one state champion There are only 883 total state champions ever! Little math help, that means there are at MOST 115 state champs from small schools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I thought ur reference to SBC was about the movie Hoosiers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlock37 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I think all sports in Indiana should be one class ! To truly find out who the best is ! I agree with some of the comments ! Football there is 5 state champions ? who is the best ? We won't know this cause it's classed ! Same as with basketball ! But what makes wrestling great is we know who the best is cause it isn't classed ! I hear all these arguments about big schools !Big deal ! How many state championships has Mater Dai won ? And they are small ! That's my take and I'm sure I'll get a boo out of my comment ! I've been been against classing any of Indianas sports not just wrestling ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I found 768 state champions from big schools, that is without counting schools with only one state champion There are only 883 total state champions ever! Little math help, that means there are at MOST 115 state champs from small schools Well that is unfair, I bet if they did have schools with 1 state champ that most of them would be small school... but technically you just beat yourself because you have to give 10 state champs to 1... that means you need about another 382 wrestlers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Here is a rough estimate, I checked most schools, 798 state champions from big schools. 85 from small schools, I almost got the 10-1 right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoach Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 There are so many things mentioned tonight about the pros and cons of a class system for wrestling. Most have merit. However, it will take several hours, days, and weeks of discussion by the IHSAA before the change is made if it is made. When they change you can bet there will be an out burst from every corner of the state. A change will come for a class system. When? Who knows? Maybe next season. Maybe 5 yrs from now. It will come because some parent will sue the IHSAA because their son or daughter was not treated the same or given the same opportunity in wrestling as they were given while playing football or volleyball. The IHSAA doesn't like to have law suits. Especially those they can't win. I don't think they will win this--maybe they will?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naco228 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I thought ur reference to SBC was about the movie Hoosiers oh! lol no im sorry haha when Y2 posted the state champs from school i saw SBC and i just thought "wow they had such a great program" my grandpa got 3rd in state for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 yeah, too bad south bend had to split up their High Schools, they could have had some great sports teams.... oh whoops wait a second, I forgot HS wasn't about athletics, it is about what is best for the students academically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Old Coach, i think the parents would win if they tried to class team state through a lawsuit, however I can not see them winning a lawsuit aimed at individual state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naco228 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 yeah, too bad south bend had to split up their High Schools, they could have had some great sports teams.... oh whoops wait a second, I forgot HS wasn't about athletics, it is about what is best for the students academically psh you got that right SBCSC is just gay....in every way....period Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Did any of you see the dates in which states went to class wrestling? Only one, New York, has done so in the past 20 years and most were in the 70s. Why were states doing this in the 70's and even some in the 50's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Y2, i would like to point out two flaws in your system of numbers My guess is you are using the enrollment totals used by the IHSAA for football, however, I bet not all of those schools field wrestling teams which throws off your top/bottom 50% line. My guess is that some of the "big schools" that you are claiming would fall into the bottom 50 percent of schools with wrestling programs. Not like it would make a huge difference, but it is enough to throw things off. Also you are assuming that every school is at the same place on the list as it was when they had their state champions. It is possible that a school may have been small when they had a state champ but are not in the uper 50 percent. In other words to get an accurate idea one would have to go through every single year to see how many state champs came from the bottom half and the top half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoach Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 One more item before this old guy retires from this enjoyable discussion. Keep in mind this discussion because the same thing is being discussed (not as vigorously)by cross country guys and gals. Currently they are like wrestling in a one class system. The talk now is that the IHSAA is realigning the current sectionals-regionals and dropping the semi-state. A few have mentioned that there may be a class system for cross country next season. Watch out track!! Look out wrestling!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 alright as of two posts ago i am now a semi state qualifyer.... i just have one questions... did I qualify for semi state in a certain class, or is this board a one class system ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 My guess is you are using the enrollment totals used by the IHSAA for football, however, I bet not all of those schools field wrestling teams which throws off your top/bottom 50% line. Your guess is wrong, this is what I am using and this only consists of schools that have wrestling as of last year. http://garrettwrestling.com/proof2008.html By the way, this is the data from the past 11 years. Take a look at it and tell me there isn't something that is not right with the current system and I'll call you a liar! My guess is that some of the "big schools" that you are claiming would fall into the bottom 50 percent of schools with wrestling programs. Not like it would make a huge difference, but it is enough to throw things off. Again, no, this is data from the enrollments from the 2008 year that they used to align all the other classed sports in Indiana Also you are assuming that every school is at the same place on the list as it was when they had their state champions. It is possible that a school may have been small when they had a state champ but are not in the uper 50 percent. Do you really think its going to make a difference so much that it will help your argument? Do you think if I were to compile this data it will magically show that half of the state champions are from small schools? Have some common sense, the schools that are big more than likely have always been big. Most of these schools are big city schools, South Bend, Fort Wayne, Indy, Evansville have always been big cities and always had the biggest schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 man... where do u get all these cool stats? And I was not planning on them affecting things that much..... i was just pointing out that the stats might not be 100 percent accurate. By the way, as long as the best wrestler wins state then i find nothing wrong with the current system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Its from the IHSAA site and something I put together to help promote class wrestling. Its hard to argue that small schools are getting the shaft when you see it plain as day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 small schools are not getting the shaft... if they were getting the shaft then the IHSAA would not allow them the opportunity to make it to state, you know like the BCS does with small D1A colleges I mean in all honesty looking at your list there are large schools that have very few state qualifiers on it like Arsenal Tech who is one of the 20 largest schools but has no qualifiers... if numbers equaled sucess then they should have double digits at the least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Really i think what it all comes down to in the end y2 is what we believe "state" should be Y2 thought = state should be an event where everyone has as close to an equal shot of making it and winning it Pin2win1 thought = state should be about finding who is the best wrestler at each weight class in the state. There is no way we will ever agree because we both think state should be two different things and its not because one of us is wrong and one of us is right but instead we just thing differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Ok..Here is the answer: We set up a class system that awards State Championship Medals to each school. The last time I checked, Wrestling is a sport based on one person meeting another individual head to head and the winner is determined by who out performs the other in a given match. This expirence has done more to educate many of our youth that the story of David and Golith is not just wishful thinking, but can actually be a fact of life. The point is, at the end of the day, it isn't how many kids are in the class rooms and halls of the school you represent...It's about the effort given by that one wrestler who represents them in each match. If these wrestlers are approching a match with a "Golith" school with the attitude that they can't win, well I am sorry, but that is a failure of the kid and more so the coaches. Wrestling does not reward such failures. From where I sit, a class system is telling these kids that it's ok to claim the highest prize in the state without facing the best competition. And this factor goes BOTH ways! Think back to past State Champions who have had to beat kids from smaller schools to reach that position. It just seems to go against the spirit of the sport of Wrestling to allow it to be watered down in such a way. We have the stats on how many wrestlers have won state from Big schools, but no stats on who they wrestled on their way to that distiction. Who from the smaller schools qualified for the State Tourney and how were their head to head matches decided? For that fact, what are the stats for the Big versus Small schools at the Semi-State level? Or even the Regional level? I think these would give us a better idea of where the level of competition becomes unbalanced. Now if you want to split the Public and Private schools into separate divisions (for ALL sports) then I would be willing to listen. That makes more sense than by size given the history of wresting champions in the state than basing it on size of student population. Even so, I am not in favor of doing that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Did any of you see the dates in which states went to class wrestling? Only one, New York, has done so in the past 20 years and most were in the 70s. Why were states doing this in the 70's and even some in the 50's? I can tell u why... $$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearless fly Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I agree $$$ is part of the problem but in a different way...coaches. When a coach from a small school has success at a small school he gets the attention of the larger schools whom basically "buy" him for their program, taking him from the small school, thus making it harder for the small school to continue success. ff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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