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Westforkwhite

Class Wrestling - Participation

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I need to put my one class wrestling post in for the after season. I don’t see enough disparity of how many state champs, placers, or qualifiers to justify taking a chance in messing up what I feel is the best of both worlds right now.  I wish the IHSAA would step-up with team state, but then again other than location I feel people love the way it is done now. The IHSWCA listen to improvements and make them! Plus, I like it in my backyard so I can go there without getting a hotel. 

 

I’m a true believer that programs are built in the community no matter what the size of the school. Alumni and/or coaching can make huge impacts on coaching, building the brand, and on culture.  I watch programs like Jimtown, PH, Shenandoah, Wawasee, Triton, Yorktown, and several others figure out how to work within these smaller schools. Matter of fact, I laugh because 4 (3-2a and 1-1a) of the 6 programs that Kyle wrestled with over the summer were these smaller schools. We were wrestling with them because we couldn’t find enough kids in our 3a to fill a 3 man team. I would say of our 28-ish wrestlers this year around 80-85% are multi-sport athletes.

 

The only way that I would see a class program work is if you would constantly adjust by moving the best programs of each class up to the next and the worst of the programs down a class. Best example I could think of, I'm sure someone could come up with something even better.

  • 405 schools / 3 = 135 schools per class
  • 3 Semi-States (each class) 45 schools in each SS
  • 15 Regionals (each class) 9 schools at each Regional
  • No Sectionals (there is 4 less matches, per IHSAA request)
  • Last 2 placed teams in 3A & 2A shift down a class and best 2 teams in 1A & 2A move up (the following year).

If you are going to go for a better system, than make it one that will benefit all classes and programs.  63 teams had a state placer and 49 additional teams had at least 1 qualifier.  That is 15.6% of high schools had a placer and 27.7% of high schools with a wrestler at state. 

  • 1 wrestler to state 59 teams (52.7%)
  • 2 wrestlers to state 28 teams (25%),
  • Makes up 87 high schools and 77.7% of state participants. (Might be off 1 or 2 teams, tired eyes)

I know that not all 405-ish schools have wrestling teams and/or have a lot of FF, probably should be the first problem addressed. Does classing wrestling do this? If so, wouldn’t all the 3a schools be good or at least being able to fill a team? I mean they have the most advantages in the classing theory.

 

I state again……

  • 63 Indiana High School wrestling teams out of 405 schools had a State placer!
  • 112 Indiana High School wrestling teams out of 405 had at least 1 state qualifier and/or placer!

I do feel that this is a low amount of schools represented at an individual state tournament (not sure how that compares to say CC, swimming, track or etc.). Question is do you make it bigger, class it, add wrestle backs, something different, or leave it alone? I find it disturbing just shy of 1/2 of the schools that take people down to state don't wrestle the next day! How many people do not come back Saturday or even down because these kids/schools didn't make it to the next day. I would think just the money lost in ticket sales from this alone would warrant wrestle backs!

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Since I would love to see this topic get to double-digit pages...I wanted to clarify one thing.  Granted, it's a small sample size, but it's just an untrue statement that "big schools have kids that specialize".  

 

The state champs this year, which is a "big school"...half their kids that advanced to state are 2-sport athletes...and that happens to be the heavier weights that played football.  And they didn't just play, they all were major contributors.  The staff does an excellent job of working together and embracing multi-sport kids.

 

Heck, our kid at 145 really loves football and has really wanted to play...but he's really good at wrestling so we've tried to encourage him to do that.

 

I have no doubt our 106, 120, and 126 would love to give it a shot but at that size it might not be wise to play 6A football at those weights.    

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Since I would love to see this topic get to double-digit pages...I wanted to clarify one thing.  Granted, it's a small sample size, but it's just an untrue statement that "big schools have kids that specialize".  

 

The state champs this year, which is a "big school"...half their kids that advanced to state are 2-sport athletes...and that happens to be the heavier weights that played football.  And they didn't just play, they all were major contributors.  The staff does an excellent job of working together and embracing multi-sport kids.

 

Heck, our kid at 145 really loves football and has really wanted to play...but he's really good at wrestling so we've tried to encourage him to do that.

 

I have no doubt our 106, 120, and 126 would love to give it a shot but at that size it might not be wise to play 6A football at those weights.    

When I was at Garrett(2A at the time) we would have pretty much EVERYONE from 119lbs and up on the football team and most of the time contributing. I remember very vividly counting at one point and there were like 7 wrestlers on the field for defense. It was fun to watch them...except the time my 135lbs state qualifier tried to tackle a guy that was well over 300lbs.

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As a football coach, you are an absolute idiot if you don't try to fill your defense with wrestlers...and on the flip-side if you have a kid that plays defense and doesn't do a winter sport if you don't "strongly encourage" him to get in the wrestling room.  Even if he has never done it and only gets to wrestle JV (and do nothing but practice tackling 2+ hours a day all winter).  

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Y2, what's the stats on small school to large school wrestlers participation in "off season" camps and tournaments. And of those that do so, what is the stat in regards to either advancing to or placing at state.

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Looking at numbers and compared to other sports, I wonder if the IHSAA would want more classes. I thought 5 would be the max and could promote growth in lower levels. Yes it would water the product down in my opinion, but that's why I'd like to have both single class and classed wrestling tournaments.

For team duals:

Single class would currently consist of 281 teams if you stipulated that teams must fill 7+ weight classes. So the current 32 sectionals for the current individual tournament would work with 9 teams per sectional (makes 288 teams). I would re-align teams to even each sectional to 8 or 9. Have 25×9=225 and 7×8=56, 25+7=32 sectionals,and 225+56=281 teams. From that you have single elimination sectionals from 281 to 32 top seed in 9 team getting bye and 8/9 winner. Then have 8 regionals of 4 teams single elimination again to have 8 teams at state. Sectional would be 3 or 4 matches (if 8/9 seed wins).Regionals would be 2 and state 3 with placement with single elimination to remain in winner's beacket. Giving 8 to possibly 9 matches total.

Classed team duals with 281 teams in 5 classes =56.2 teams which would correlate to football with 64 teams per class (before 6A). I would do 8 sectionals/regionals (whatever you name it) of 7 to 8 teams depending which class has the odd amount of 57 teams. Top seeds get a bye in 7 team areas. Have it single elimination as well. So 56/57 to 8 teams with 2 or 3 matches. Then the 8 winners go to state where I'd keep the pool play. Two 4 team brackets of pool play and place in pool determines placement match. If not just do single elimination for winner's bracket. Could use pool play for 1st rd as well.

Individual tournaments:

Single class I'd keep the same format except make each match single elimination until top 4 placement. I'd also try to even out the number of schools in each sectional. The IHSAA lists 311 schools assigned to a sectional. I'd do 23 sectionals of 10 and 9 sectionals of 9 which is 23+9=32 & 230+81=311.

Class individual I'd do 5 classes as well. 311÷5=62.2 which is close enough for 64. So 4 classes of 64 and 1 of 55. Have the 64 team classes split into 8 sectionals of 8 teams with double elimination to 3rd/4th. 1st/2nd would have 3 matches and 3rd/4th would have 4. Then have those top 8 do the same at state.

 

Yes this will never happen, but hopefully can lead to ideas or other suggestions. I'd like to see class wrestling to enhance numbers but keep single class to ensure quality. With 5 classes, I think you could follow the success factor the IHSAA uses and allows for a future partnership to facilitate easier.

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What would a 2 class state finals at Bankers Life look like? 12 kids per weight class from big school class qualify and 8 kids per weight class for small school class qualify?  I would assume that we would still need to complete the tournament on Friday night and Saturday, so we wouldn't have the time to add too many more kids and matches to be able to get it all completed.

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When I was at Garrett(2A at the time) we would have pretty much EVERYONE from 119lbs and up on the football team and most of the time contributing. I remember very vividly counting at one point and there were like 7 wrestlers on the field for defense. It was fun to watch them...except the time my 135lbs state qualifier tried to tackle a guy that was well over 300lbs.

We have 3 kids who are new to the sport that do not play other sports. 1 was our 106 back up , 1 our heavy and 1 our 152. They are not training much in off season though. That hopefully changes this offseason.

Our best kids run cross and play football

1 plays baseball & football he scares the life out of me - he's our 132 and is not afraid of anything on the field.

 

Fun to watch and keeps us busy scheduling Open mats and technique sessions.

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Since I would love to see this topic get to double-digit pages...I wanted to clarify one thing.  Granted, it's a small sample size, but it's just an untrue statement that "big schools have kids that specialize".  

 

The state champs this year, which is a "big school"...half their kids that advanced to state are 2-sport athletes...and that happens to be the heavier weights that played football.  And they didn't just play, they all were major contributors.  The staff does an excellent job of working together and embracing multi-sport kids.

 

Heck, our kid at 145 really loves football and has really wanted to play...but he's really good at wrestling so we've tried to encourage him to do that.

 

I have no doubt our 106, 120, and 126 would love to give it a shot but at that size it might not be wise to play 6A football at those weights.    

 

My favorite quote from this past weekend came from Jacob Gray who said "Playing multiple sports makes me a better athlete, it makes me more versatile". Both of our state qualifiers this year are 3 sport athletes, one has a State Championship football ring, our 106 SQ is our JV quarterback, and both of them play baseball in the spring. I think one thing that has hurt wrestling is the idea of specialization, and it has hurt us in the past with kids who have become football players in the fall and then told us they were not going to wrestle because they needed to lift all winter for football. I think working with your school's football coach, along with other fall and spring sports can really pay dividends for your participation numbers. Classing the state tournament is not going to convince those winter football players at the small school level to come out for wrestling.

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why is it most of the time a small school gets a good coach he moves on to bigger greener pastures ?  cant be money can it ?  don't all coaches, no matter what size school, have a salary cap ?

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No. Coaches salary is set entirely by the school corporation. But even beyond salary, coaches move to bigger schools for a lot of reasons, better facilities, more available club money, and even just the ability to reach more kids.  

 

A lot of guys move to a better school so their own kids can have more opportunities as well, both in the classroom and in athletics.

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I forgot facts don't faze you. What was a I thinking.

 

Here are some more facts

There are 20 schools that have yet to have a state qualifier, 18 from 1A, 2 from 2A....believe it or not, none from 3A

Guerin Catholic 2A

Salem 2A

Attica 1A

Carroll (Flora) 1A

Covington 1A

Cowan 1A

Crawford County 1A

Faith Christian 1A

Hebron 1A

Indiana Deaf 1A

Indianapolis Lutheran 1A

Lapel 1A

Mitchell 1A

North Judson 1A

North Putnam 1A

Paoli 1A

Switzerland County 1A

Tri 1A

Tri County 1A

Westview 1A

 

Since 2000

1A 73 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

2A 94 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

3A 99 of 101 schools have had a state qualifier

 

Since 2008(10 years)

1A 59 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

2A 88 of 102 schools have had a state qualifier

3A 96 of 101 schools have had a state qualifier

 

Everything is fine, nothing to see here.

 

Switzerland County does not really have a wrestling team. To my knowledge, they have never even wrested a single match. They call and cancel all of them.

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Switzerland County does not really have a wrestling team. To my knowledge, they have never even wrested a single match. They call and cancel all of them.

They wrestled at the Jennings County sectional this year.

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They have cancelled every time we were supposed to go against them in a dual for the last 3 years. If you have a program less than 5 years old and your kids never see action, that is a bigger hindrance than the size of your school.

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