Eliminate Semi-State

[base]

Wrestlebacks would help but keep in mind that no matter what fix you try to add, there are still going to be situations where a higher seeded person is stuck close to 2 other highly seeded individuals geographically and therefore will end up with a bad draw somehow.  There could theoretically be the top 5 seeds in the state at the same sectional, where there is no way to "change the system" so that they all can be state placers

• Final tournaments are setup geographically by the IHSAA, not by skill level or seeding
• Individuals change year to year, what may seem like a ridiculous sectional group of teams now may not be in another 10 years, or perhaps wasn't 10 years ago.  IHSAA is not going to schedule based on the prevailing winds
• Seeding is impressively accurate, but is only a subjective number assigned by knowledgeable individuals.  It is not 100% and should not be considered as anything more than a reference.  A #2 and a #5 seed may sound like a large gap, but in reality if the two have not wrestled before than the #5 could be better
• On any given day, wrestling is a sport where upsets CAN happen. It is not IHSAA job to penalize the underdog that has won, or to consider how the "favorite" should deserve another chance

Yes, it's personal because they are our kids.  Yes, we want to see the best kids represented at state finals.  Just remember that for every wrestler that you think "should" be there, there is a wrestler that "shouldn't" be there in your opinion but has earned their way by winning against the opponents placed in front of them

 

Let's celebrate the warriors that are still standing.  It may not be the best system, but it's what we have.  Imperfect yet beautiful

[bwoodjc89]

I'm 100% certain that IndianaMat rankings don't mean a thing to IHSAA officials. If you view it through that lens you'll see why they don't think wrestlebacks are necessary and the brackets are fine. Not saying I agree, I think the rankings are a pretty darn good representaion of where kids stand in their weight class. Those things just don't matter to IHSAA and the post season tournament series.

[JStits]

The topic was about shortening the 4 week state series.(You wrestlebackers are trying to hijack every conversation)

I am not for shortening the state series.

My stance is-the 4 week state series is really awesome and cool for the Indiana wrestler to be a part of. We're blessed to have four weeks. 

∆Wrestling is not for the soft. (Did not say anyone was soft)

∆Our state series is brutal and miserable and hard but worthwhile.

∆The way it's set up makes placing impressive. 

∆We don't have the safety net of wrestlebacks-That's the truth and It is what it is. (Not saying good, bad or indifferent nor am I trying to provoke anyone)

I will recap

4 weeks of state series-very good 

Our state series-very difficult

If you can place top 8-very impressive

 

[SIACfan]

22 minutes ago, base said:

On any given day, wrestling is a sport where upsets CAN happen. It is not IHSAA job to penalize the underdog that has won, or to consider how the "favorite" should deserve another chance

 

...Just remember that for every wrestler that you think "should" be there, there is a wrestler that "shouldn't" be there in your opinion but has earned their way by winning against the opponents placed in front of them

 

 

 

It's not about giving a certain individual a second chance, but rather giving every individual the same chance.

 

How is requiring all individuals to qualify against the entire bracket verses only their quarter bracket penalizing them?

[Disco]

On 2/7/2024 at 7:38 PM, slice6060 said:

No need to debate...

 

You are wrong.

 

It will NEVER happen.

It already has happened. In the 70’s there was no semi state. Regionals then state. 

[ILUV2PIN]

On 2/8/2024 at 12:15 PM, JStits said:

Are you kidding me!?

This is the most badass, and miserable, 4 weeks of the year.

I feel blessed my boys have this opportunity to try and advance week after week.

Make it through and get rewarded with the next tournament where it becomes tougher and tougher to advance. 

No safety-net wrestlebacks, win or your crushed. Misery or relief.

It is not for the soft.

This is what makes placing in Indiana really mean something.

Yet the PA, NJ, Ohio, Illinois, Michigan wrestlers perform better at the next levels than do Indiana guys... no one seems to have a good answer as to why that is the case.

[bomber_bob]

16 minutes ago, ILUV2PIN said:

Yet the PA, NJ, Ohio, Illinois, Michigan wrestlers perform better at the next levels than do Indiana guys... no one seems to have a good answer as to why that is the case.

are you insinuating that the IHSAA State Tournament series is the reason why Indiana does not perform as well as the states you mentioned at the next level?

[ILUV2PIN]

1 minute ago, bomber_bob said:

are you insinuating that the IHSAA State Tournament series is the reason why Indiana does not perform as well as the states you mentioned at the next level?

There are elements of our tourney that may be responsible for our lack of success comparative to those other states, yes, I wholeheartedly believe that. 

[Disco]

The winner of the regional was the only one that advanced to state. 

20 hours ago, Disco said:

It already has happened. In the 70’s there was no semi state. Regionals then state. 

 

[jason]

On 2/8/2024 at 2:12 PM, Wrestling Scholar said:

This is a great example of reason #3 in my recent post on why "Indiana doesn't have wrestlebacks".  Thanks for the content JStits.  Im going to edit my post and add "soft" to the description.

 

 

3. I didnt have wrestle backs when i wrestled:  How many grizzled veterans of the Indiana state tournament post they love the format, and that we have the best tournament in the country.  Even though many were scarred by their bad draws and robbed of placing or their lots were thrown wheel of luck. Its really just a psychological perception to block progress because they didn't have the same advantage Why should these young cocky spoiled wrestlers have a progressive advantage we didn't.   It's just not fair, thus were continually stuck in this circle state of no changes or progress.   These are the same dudes that walked to school 6 miles in the snow and loved it.

We had wrestle backs and classed wrestling in Ohio. I moved here when the kids were young so kinda stuck with this mess. Don’t like it. But what are ya gonna do? Just go with how it is and beat whoever is in your bracket.

[Wrestling Scholar]

19 minutes ago, jason said:

We had wrestle backs and classed wrestling in Ohio. I moved here when the kids were young so kinda stuck with this mess. Don’t like it. But what are ya gonna do? Just go with how it is and beat whoever is in your bracket.

Good points, just wrestle your best.   You have it to admit its kind of ironic, that we all complain on this board, give our opinions, but does it really matter.  You rarely see a change out the IHSAA, its a futile effort.

[WrestlinAdvocateIndiana]

Semi State is absolutely necessary. While it is difficult to overcome, if you do it says something about the individuals consistency and overall talent. The title of state qualifier will lose its prestige if you were to eliminate semi state.

[blueandgold]

1 hour ago, WrestlinAdvocateIndiana said:

Semi State is absolutely necessary. While it is difficult to overcome, if you do it says something about the individuals consistency and overall talent. The title of state qualifier will lose its prestige if you were to eliminate semi state.

Not factual.

[Jcjcjc]

As someone who was at semi state today, Semi state is as awesome today. 
Eliminate the filibuster, left turns at stop lights, or something else, and keep your damn dirty ape hands off my semi state. 

[indypharmd]

wish there were wrestlebacks for rd 2

[WrestlinAdvocateIndiana]

50 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

Not factual.

“Not factual” yeah right buddy, making something easier won’t hurt its prestige??? Most of these kids are yearning for prestige and semi state gives them that opportunity.

[blueandgold]

7 minutes ago, WrestlinAdvocateIndiana said:

“Not factual” yeah right buddy, making something easier won’t hurt its prestige??? Most of these kids are yearning for prestige and semi state gives them that opportunity.

Yes. Not factual. Eliminating semi-state doesn’t make it easier. Eliminating it and implementing full wrestlebacks at the regional level with a larger bracket size will, in fact, make it harder, “buddy.” 

Edited February 11 by blueandgold

[WrestlinAdvocateIndiana]

15 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

Yes. Not factual. Eliminating semi-state doesn’t make it easier. Eliminating it and implementing full wrestlebacks at the regional level with a larger bracket size will, in fact, make it harder, “buddy.” 

Thanks for explaining it like that, pal. When you put it like that, it may have the potential to increase the prestige for state qualifiers. If it can do that I’d be on board.

[Cmoney125]

On 2/8/2024 at 2:54 PM, blueandgold said:

People won’t admit it, but there is a lot of luck involved in the random pairing format. The fact that you can have a 1-3 record at the state finals and be considered top 8 in the state is kind of ridiculous. The whole tournament series needs realignment. A lot of people also don’t like change or don’t want to see better for future generations, so they think it’s worth it to compete in a flawed system that doesn’t truly measure how good you actually are but how lucky you get. There is ZERO reason Hunter May and Tommy Gibbs or Preston Haines and Ty Henderson should be wrestling in the quarterfinals on Saturday. They’ve separated themselves from the rest of the state aside from the #1s ahead of them and this is how they’re rewarded.

Don't place 4th?

[blueandgold]

30 minutes ago, Cmoney125 said:

Don't place 4th?

You can’t say that when some 4th place finishers are gifted better draws than champs and runner-ups.

[Cmoney125]

2 hours ago, blueandgold said:

You can’t say that when some 4th place finishers are gifted better draws than champs and runner-ups.

I can because every kid has control of what's on the mat in front of them. Every kid has to deal with the same system. Should we just start picking 16 kids since every sectional, regional and semi state aren't created equal?

[blueandgold]

27 minutes ago, Cmoney125 said:

I can because every kid has control of what's on the mat in front of them. Every kid has to deal with the same system. Should we just start picking 16 kids since every sectional, regional and semi state aren't created equal?

Yes, they all have to deal with the same system, but if we all know the system can be improved, why not improve it?

[blueandgold]

32 minutes ago, Cmoney125 said:

I can because every kid has control of what's on the mat in front of them. Every kid has to deal with the same system. Should we just start picking 16 kids since every sectional, regional and semi state aren't created equal?

Clay Guenin was a regional champion with a 36-1 record and has wins over numerous state qualifiers and medalists, yet he was rewarded with Luke Penola in the ticket round. The same scenario was the case for Tommy Gibbs, Preston Haines, Guillermo Rivera, Jaylen Young, Hruai Lian, Jacob McClure, etc. Them losing their matches isn’t the issue. It’s the fact that they proved they were among the best wrestlers in the state all year, had to wrestle another top talent in the qualifying match, and didn’t have the opportunity to wrestle back to be among the best in the group while in some cases, the common opponents they shared with the person who beat them advanced facing less quality opponents. That’s not dissing the kids, either, it’s just the facts of the matter. If you don’t see how seeding based on a full body of work done throughout the season to create separation and full consolation rounds to ensure wrestlers get their rightful chance could fix that, then we don’t need to be having this discussion. If you want to keep semi-state, that’s fine, but then discussion about eliminating sectionals or regionals needs to take place.

 

The reason I say Indiana has a subpar state tournament is because of the long, plodding month-long journey just to get to the state finals, there aren’t any consolations, and because one week in the first three is an unnecessary rehash of what could’ve already taken place. A lot of people don’t want to change it because they either aren’t positively receptive towards change or because they hold the old head “Well, if I suffered, they should too” mentality. There isn’t always testament of who the best wrestlers are, so therefore, we don’t always get a good indicator of how deep or good the field truly is as compared to other states, but that’s also not the IHSAAs priority either. So, until there is change at that level, we won’t see much, but that doesn’t mean you stop voicing what is right for the sport and cease work on improving the system.

[Cmoney125]

Be careful use too much voice, you'll get classed wrestling and destroy the whole tournament

[CommanderLightFeet]

Have wrestle backs all across the board. Combine the two sectionals that feed into the regional and only have regionals, semi-state, and state. The top 6 from each regional move onto semi state. The top two from the regional get a bye in the first round at semi state. Have wrestle backs in semi state and state as well as regionals. Only top four from semi-state move on to state but wrestle backs are a must at state.