Crown Point, Brownsburg, Center Grove

[Disco]

40 minutes ago, Websterk149 said:

Well considering Fort Wayne just brought 30 placers from all the random schools around. This is CG’s first year top 3. The elites like mater Dei and cathedral weren’t even top 5. Little New castle was 5th. I’d say no no no. And why would all these kids all of a sudden start doing that? 2 of our 3 best kids in D1 college right now are from a 1a school and 3a school (Silas, mason, Mendez). Why didn’t the Lees (besides nick senior year), Mendez, seltzer, Brayton lee, red etc all just skip out and go? Because Indiana is progressing talent and our state tourney is awesome. Everyone wants to grow Indiana wrestling and this sport till a school they don’t like has a good season. 

Webster, I think you are on to something here. What you said is true , and in a lot of multi class high school wrestling states ,the wrestlers are fleeing and not participating in the states finals. Unlike Indianas one class premier tournament. Where the best want to be a part of one of the greatest spectacles in high school sports. 3 of the best D1 college wrestlers from around Indiana are from 1a and 3a schools . This says a lot. 

[Websterk149]

7 minutes ago, Disco said:

Webster, I think you are on to something here. What you said is true , and in a lot of multi class high school wrestling states ,the wrestlers are fleeing and not participating in the states finals. Unlike Indianas one class premier tournament. Where the best want to be a part of one of the greatest spectacles in high school sports. 3 of the best D1 college wrestlers from around Indiana are from 1a and 3a schools . This says a lot. 

Maybe I am but probably not. Just the “class state” and how Indiana wrestling is just becoming a sport for the elite and wealthy is so negative and way more harm than good. 

I am from one of the smallest schools in Indiana (Shenandoah) and I totally hate classing the tourney. I love class team state duals but I fell in love in 8th grade when I went to state and saw small schools just like me with a kids in the placings. It showed me that you CAN compete and beat these 4-6a school kids.
We are in a sport where if you don’t like the kid that got 1st, YOU can change that by your efforts and we’re in 1 of 3 states where if YOU don’t like a team that won a tourney, YOU can change it.
 

Silas Allred is an elite kid for our state that came out of the freaking “old middle school gym/cafeteria” of podunk Shenandoah that has a daggum wind turbine in its backyard. He did it all with shoes, a mat, a couple good partners, couple dedicated coaches/community and massive PASSION to be great and compete. Thrine just won a title with literally only wrestling his partners and listening to his coaches. 
 

These elite kids don’t just flee because they’re smarter than us and know they’re going to face a couple other elite challengers along the way and want to be apart of Indiana history legacy and truly grow our state in this awesome sport. “Iron Sharpens Iron” 

[Disco]

Webster, you ok? Glad you got it all out! A lot of good oration here. 

[matts]

10 minutes ago, Websterk149 said:

Maybe I am but probably not. Just the “class state” and how Indiana wrestling is just becoming a sport for the elite and wealthy is so negative and way more harm than good. 

I am from one of the smallest schools in Indiana (Shenandoah) and I totally hate classing the tourney. I love class team state duals but I fell in love in 8th grade when I went to state and saw small schools just like me with a kids in the placings. It showed me that you CAN compete and beat these 4-6a school kids.
We are in a sport where if you don’t like the kid that got 1st, YOU can change that by your efforts and we’re in 1 of 3 states where if YOU don’t like a team that won a tourney, YOU can change it.
 

Silas Allred is an elite kid for our state that came out of the freaking “old middle school gym/cafeteria” of podunk Shenandoah that has a daggum wind turbine in its backyard. He did it all with shoes, a mat, a couple good partners, couple dedicated coaches/community and massive PASSION to be great and compete. Thrine just won a title with literally only wrestling his partners and listening to his coaches. 
 

These elite kids don’t just flee because they’re smarter than us and know they’re going to face a couple other elite challengers along the way and want to be apart of Indiana history legacy and truly grow our state in this awesome sport. “Iron Sharpens Iron” 

 

To be clear, no where did I mention anything about the size of school or class sports. 

 

I merely wondered if the nationwide trend toward elite wrestling academies, national pre/post season tournaments (Super 32, Beast of the East, Poweraid, etc...), and some of the best kids forgoing high school seasons to train with RTCs is truly best for the sport.  Maybe it is.  I am just not so sure yet, and I hardly call it negative to discuss such.

 

Like it or not, the biggest academies, national travel, and the rise of powerhouse private schools like Sem, Valiant Prep, etc...  are aspects of our sport that are here and deserve to be explored and scrutinized.   

 

[Websterk149]

4 minutes ago, Disco said:

Webster, you ok? Glad you got it all out! A lot of good oration here. 

Never better lol. 2nd best weekend of whole year behind my bday just happened and got to watch great kids compete at high levels in this great sport in the greatest state. Just why can’t we all be elite and grow the talent in this sport so much that semi state ticket rounds are as tough as top 8 state matches. You may not win the team title but you’ll still help push Indiana levels further up!

[Websterk149]

2 minutes ago, matts said:

 

To be clear, no where did I mention anything about the size of school or class sports. 

 

I merely wondered if the nationwide trend toward elite wrestling academies, national pre/post season tournaments (Super 32, Beast of the East, Poweraid, etc...), and some of the best kids forgoing high school seasons to train with RTCs is truly best for the sport.  Maybe it is.  I am just not so sure yet, and I hardly call it negative to discuss such.

 

Like it or not, the biggest academies, national travel, and the rise of powerhouse private schools like Sem, Valiant Prep, etc...  are aspects of our sport that are here and deserve to be explored and scrutinized.   

 

I see what you are saying but I just really don’t think it’s happening to Indiana. Besides Lee and Carroll I can’t think of any other the elite kids we’ve had over years do this. Culver academy is same school setup as Sem, then why aren’t the elites going there to wrestle? What makes this state so great, to me in all sports and I might be wrong, is that kids still live and love to wear their schools name on singlet and point to their whole community in stands when the buzzer sounds. With school and clubs/academies working more and more together in Indiana I think has helped to prevent this more too. 

[Thor]

26 minutes ago, Websterk149 said:

Maybe I am but probably not. Just the “class state” and how Indiana wrestling is just becoming a sport for the elite and wealthy is so negative and way more harm than good. 

I am from one of the smallest schools in Indiana (Shenandoah) and I totally hate classing the tourney. I love class team state duals but I fell in love in 8th grade when I went to state and saw small schools just like me with a kids in the placings. It showed me that you CAN compete and beat these 4-6a school kids.
We are in a sport where if you don’t like the kid that got 1st, YOU can change that by your efforts and we’re in 1 of 3 states where if YOU don’t like a team that won a tourney, YOU can change it.
 

Silas Allred is an elite kid for our state that came out of the freaking “old middle school gym/cafeteria” of podunk Shenandoah that has a daggum wind turbine in its backyard. He did it all with shoes, a mat, a couple good partners, couple dedicated coaches/community and massive PASSION to be great and compete. Thrine just won a title with literally only wrestling his partners and listening to his coaches. 
 

These elite kids don’t just flee because they’re smarter than us and know they’re going to face a couple other elite challengers along the way and want to be apart of Indiana history legacy and truly grow our state in this awesome sport. “Iron Sharpens Iron” 

I mentioned this earlier with Thrine, but arguing for a single class because a small school lucked into a unicorn doesn’t help your argument. 

[Websterk149]

1 minute ago, Thor said:

I mentioned this earlier with Thrine, but arguing for a single class because a small school lucked into a unicorn doesn’t help your argument. 

Don’t need my argument to win over everyone. Just win over the ones that matter most.  

[MattM]

16 minutes ago, Websterk149 said:

Culver academy is same school setup as Sem, then why aren’t the elites going there to wrestle? 

Not getting into the rest of your argument but it’s worth clearing things up about Culver Academy.  

 

For one Culver has been committed to the IHSAA for a long time and thus had to follow their travel restrictions. That is a vastly different set of parameter for national competition and exposure compared to many national prep program. Sure the IHSAA has opened the travel doors now, but my second point is likely why they aren’t going to bloom into a powerhouse like Blair or Sem.  

 

Secondly, Culver has never put itself out there as a major nationally recruiting sports focused school like some of the other national prep programs.  Sure they invest in athletics but not near to the level of these other prep sports giants. Could they yes but so far they have chosen to to take that leap.  Culver has always been rooted in academic and preparing young adult leaders, so I don’t see a big change from that just because the IHSAA has opened travel. 

 

A better Indiana prep example would be La Lumiere. Which has choose not to be in the IHSAA so they could travel the nation for big games and big exposure.  They place a huge athletic emphasis on developing capable DI level basketball talent while making sure their players get the academic support necessary to be eligible for those college programs.   

Edited February 20, 2023 by MattM

[Websterk149]

20 minutes ago, MattM said:

Not getting into the rest of your argument but it’s worth clearing things up about Culver Academy.  

 

For one Culver has been committed to the IHSAA for a long time and thus had to follow their travel restrictions. That is a vastly different set of parameter for national competition and exposure compared to many national prep program. Sure the IHSAA has opened the travel doors now, but my second point is likely why they aren’t going to bloom into a powerhouse like Blair or Sem.  

 

Secondly, Culver has never put itself out there as a major nationally recruiting sports focused school like some of the other national prep programs.  Sure they invest in athletics but not near to the level of these other prep sports giants. Could they yes but so far they have chosen to to take that leap.  Culver has always been rooted in academic and preparing young adult leaders, so I don’t see a big change from that just because the IHSAA has opened travel. 

 

A better Indiana prep example would be La Lumiere. Which has choose not to be in the IHSAA so they could travel the nation for big games and big exposure.  They place a huge athletic emphasis on developing capable DI level basketball talent while making sure their players get the academic support necessary to be eligible for those college programs.   

Hey man I had a 50/50 shot that he didn’t know that and now you made 0 LOL but yep I know La Lumiere but I didn’t even know existed till like 4 years ago and don’t know much about them. I agree with all you said, just wanted to plug them in and hope for best really lol 

[tonyzirkle]

What was the team score record before CP destroyed it last year with 178 points?  Was it owned by EMD with around 108-112?  If so, this was a truly historic team meet bc all 3 broke the prior record. 
 

CP - 167

CG - 131 (65 last year)

BB - 129.5 (105 last year)

[HWTDAD]

16 hours ago, Websterk149 said:

How is center grove a dynasty with 0 team titles? No disrespect to them, they compete hard as hell, but cmon. And Indiana hasn’t had more dominant schools? Mater Dei, Perry, Penn, warren, cathedral might beg to differ lol 

To be fair...no they haven't. Up until 2 years ago all 3 of their team scores this year would have been a state record. There have never been teams this dominant.

[HWTDAD]

17 hours ago, navy80 said:

I'd like to know what the schools, coaches, wrestlers have done to change the culture into a dynasty culture? What are practices like? What are the coaches like? What's the secret sauce? 

 

I'll go on a limb and say Indiana has never had such three dominant teams.

That is a fact.  I believe Mater Dei held the team score record at 112 until last year. All 3 teams smashed that.

[The Professor Morgan]

Warren set the record at 109.5 in 2016

MD beat it at 112 a few years later.

 

[matts]

3 hours ago, HWTDAD said:

That is a fact.  I believe Mater Dei held the team score record at 112 until last year. All 3 teams smashed that.

 

Wow.  I had no idea.  The spread between 3rd and 4th place is fascinating, too.

[Silence Dogood]

The 2003 Mater Dei team would have had the record before Crown Point last year.

 

According to this article, they would have scored 158.

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2015/02/09/indiana-high-school-wrestling-evansville-mater-dei-best-ever/23118865/

 

But that score is not recognized by the IHSAA records because the IHSAA team title was crowned through the team dual tournament. 

[Y2CJ41]

17 hours ago, Websterk149 said:

I see what you are saying but I just really don’t think it’s happening to Indiana. Besides Lee and Carroll I can’t think of any other the elite kids we’ve had over years do this. Culver academy is same school setup as Sem, then why aren’t the elites going there to wrestle? What makes this state so great, to me in all sports and I might be wrong, is that kids still live and love to wear their schools name on singlet and point to their whole community in stands when the buzzer sounds. With school and clubs/academies working more and more together in Indiana I think has helped to prevent this more too. 

How many elite of elite kids have we had that could go the RTC route their senior year? This is a very new avenue to take and even when Nick Lee did so he got some people questioning his decision. 

 

There are many factors that go into choosing to skipping a senior year to train and attend college opens. One of them simply being at the elite level, others include family resources, the chosen college having a strong RTC training environment, amongst other factors. The ones that are choosing to stay are not doing it based on being a single class state. For instance Christian Carroll would have had two opponents that are either nationally ranked or previously ranked to go through, but chose to leave.

 

You are living in a dream world if you think kids are making decisions on class wrestling or not. If they were you would see kids in Arizona, Georgia, Virginia, and other states with 5+ classes leaving in droves.

[ReformedPoster]

19 hours ago, Websterk149 said:

I see what you are saying but I just really don’t think it’s happening to Indiana. Besides Lee and Carroll I can’t think of any other the elite kids we’ve had over years do this. Culver academy is same school setup as Sem, then why aren’t the elites going there to wrestle? What makes this state so great, to me in all sports and I might be wrong, is that kids still live and love to wear their schools name on singlet and point to their whole community in stands when the buzzer sounds. With school and clubs/academies working more and more together in Indiana I think has helped to prevent this more too. 

All three Lee brothers skipped their senior season.

 

I've said before, if there is a truly elite wrestler (like Nick Lee and Christian Carroll) that doesn't have a shot a being a 4xer then you will start seeing them opt out of their senior year to get a jump on college.  Let's pretend that the headlock that Koontz threw on Mendez in the finals in '20 resulted in a pin.  I truly believe that Mendez would have been better served to go train at Ohio St for his senior year rather than steamrolling the competition in Indiana.  But the chance to be a 4xer is something that puts you in the history books and cements your legacy.  that's too hard to pass up.  But when that dream is gone, go and get yourself into a better training situation to prepare yourself for the next level.  Not all will choose to go this route, but I can see it becoming more commonplace.

[igotcaught]

11 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

All three Lee brothers skipped their senior season.

 

I've said before, if there is a truly elite wrestler (like Nick Lee and Christian Carroll) that doesn't have a shot a being a 4xer then you will start seeing them opt out of their senior year to get a jump on college.  Let's pretend that the headlock that Koontz threw on Mendez in the finals in '20 resulted in a pin.  I truly believe that Mendez would have been better served to go train at Ohio St for his senior year rather than steamrolling the competition in Indiana.  But the chance to be a 4xer is something that puts you in the history books and cements your legacy.  that's too hard to pass up.  But when that dream is gone, go and get yourself into a better training situation to prepare yourself for the next level.  Not all will choose to go this route, but I can see it becoming more commonplace.

I think team titles are a factor to consider too. Mendez helped out his senior year for CP to win state. 

[ReformedPoster]

3 minutes ago, igotcaught said:

I think team titles are a factor to consider too. Mendez helped out his senior year for CP to win state. 

True, but not in all cases.  I think MD would have won in 2020 had Matt Lee stayed and won his 2nd title.  So it doesn't always factor in as highly for some as it does for others.

[Disco]

So summing up what’s the secret to these schools becoming hammers in the state, seems to be the extra work put in at all levels provided by academies. Does this go back to the MD era? Or PM dominance? What about Griffin High School in the 2000’s?  Did they get to that stage by relying on academies? I’m not so sure. Hell I remember in the late 60’s to early middle 70’s Bloomington High School ,Kay Hutsell ,was a squad nobody wanted to face. And even continued after they split Bloomington school in half, a lot of the wrestlers went to the new north school, Bo Henry ,and continued the dominance. Was there even academies then? Maybe not as dominant bet Delta comes to mind, at that time a new suburban school, that I’m wondering if the academy ,or out side of school, training existed?

[Silence Dogood]

7 minutes ago, Disco said:

So summing up what’s the secret to these schools becoming hammers in the state, seems to be the extra work put in at all levels provided by academies. Does this go back to the MD era? Or PM dominance? What about Griffin High School in the 2000’s?  Did they get to that stage by relying on academies? I’m not so sure. Hell I remember in the late 60’s to early middle 70’s Bloomington High School ,Kay Hutsell ,was a squad nobody wanted to face. And even continued after they split Bloomington school in half, a lot of the wrestlers went to the new north school, Bo Henry ,and continued the dominance. Was there even academies then? Maybe not as dominant bet Delta comes to mind, at that time a new suburban school, that I’m wondering if the academy ,or out side of school, training existed?

[ReformedPoster]

5 minutes ago, Disco said:

So summing up what’s the secret to these schools becoming hammers in the state, seems to be the extra work put in at all levels provided by academies. Does this go back to the MD era? Or PM dominance? What about Griffin High School in the 2000’s?  Did they get to that stage by relying on academies? I’m not so sure. Hell I remember in the late 60’s to early middle 70’s Bloomington High School ,Kay Hutsell ,was a squad nobody wanted to face. And even continued after they split Bloomington school in half, a lot of the wrestlers went to the new north school, Bo Henry ,and continued the dominance. Was there even academies then? Maybe not as dominant bet Delta comes to mind, at that time a new suburban school, that I’m wondering if the academy ,or out side of school, training existed?

MD's dominance was rooted in their feeder program.  From the 70's up through the early 2000's there was not a better model in the state.  Kids would start wrestling in Kindergarten and there was/is the huge family/tradition aspect that kept that going.  Every feeder school would field a full team and the coaches were dads that were MD wrestlers. 

 

Now it has been surpassed by the academy model.  Kids are specializing and wrestling 365 days per year now and that has made a huge difference.  Those academy kids start matriculating to the same schools and before you know it you've got a powerhouse school that has a ton of resources.

[indypharmd]

2 hours ago, ReformedPoster said:

MD's dominance was rooted in their feeder program.  From the 70's up through the early 2000's there was not a better model in the state.  Kids would start wrestling in Kindergarten and there was/is the huge family/tradition aspect that kept that going.  Every feeder school would field a full team and the coaches were dads that were MD wrestlers. 

 

Now it has been surpassed by the academy model.  Kids are specializing and wrestling 365 days per year now and that has made a huge difference.  Those academy kids start matriculating to the same schools and before you know it you've got a powerhouse school that has a ton of resources.

The article that Anna Kayser did early in the season summarizes Brownsburg's rise when Darrick took over. The other element that tagged in when Darrick arrived was the decision of Brayton Lee choosing to stay home in Purplesburg vs going elsewhere to high school. Darrick's endorsement of kids attending academies AND his open practices is also a key point. The BCSC administrators are also great supporters of co-curricular activities and often attend regionals, SS, and state finals...

 

I also wondered this weekend what Chesterton would have accomplished if the guys who went to elementary school would've stayed through HS...?

[Barn Burner]

10 minutes ago, indypharmd said:

The article that Anna Kayser did early in the season summarizes Brownsburg's rise when Darrick took over. The other element that tagged in when Darrick arrived was the decision of Brayton Lee choosing to stay home in Purplesburg vs going elsewhere to high school. Darrick's endorsement of kids attending academies AND his open practices is also a key point. The BCSC administrators are also great supporters of co-curricular activities and often attend regionals, SS, and state finals...

 

I also wondered this weekend what Chesterton would have accomplished if the guys who went to elementary school would've stayed through HS...?

3 Champs:

132 Sergio Lemley

145 Aiden Torres

160 Sam Goin