Toughest semi state based on rankings ?

[maligned]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

Cause Fort Wayne has more small schools. There’s no Warren Centrals or Merrillville up here. And there’s no big wrestling private/parochial schools like a Cathedral or Mater Dei. The Fort Wayne semi state has been held up by mostly smaller schools, outside of Carroll. Doesn’t help that Yorktown has fallen off, and even they are 2A. And while RTCs like the one at Indiana Tech are trying to get a foothold, there’s nothing in the area like a Red Cobra, CIA, Mauer Coughlin, or RWA. 

Agree. And the acceleration of the Information Age that's ramped up the resource and idea sharing tends to benefit those with more resources and more kids. Small schools and lower income schools are falling further and further behind in sports, on average, than ever before in comparison to larger and richer schools. 

[maligned]

3 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Good point Y2.  But the reason IMO FW isnt as strong as other SS like NC and Evansville (in the last 10 Years)  is  the NE quadrant of Indiana has a make up of schools with more smaller schools and less bigger schools than NC and EV.   The net result of this is there are just less kids that participate in wrestling  due to lower enrollments. Its just as statistical fact, the more enrolled kids you have in your universe,  the  higher chance you have of developing kids that can place at the higher level.  Thats the main reason.  I also think some people in ECC are in denial that they're much closer to FW and much further from EV and NC based on depth of wrestling.

The denial point is true but understandable. You've still got a good amount of high-end star power to distract from the extreme drop-off in depth. Also, the drop-off has happened rather rapidly in the last 5 or 6 years, so owning the "little brother" role probably hasn't fully happened yet for a semi-state that was so loaded in the 2000s and early 2010s.

[Galagore]

Should I say class wrestling now and get booed out of the room?

 

Or should I start toward the door and say it on my way out?

[GenHeavyHandz]

5 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

HISTORICALLY is has not been the weakest, you are only thinking of the last 10 years.

Tell’em

[GenHeavyHandz]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

Cause Fort Wayne has more small schools. There’s no Warren Centrals or Merrillville up here. And there’s no big wrestling private/parochial schools like a Cathedral or Mater Dei. The Fort Wayne semi state has been held up by mostly smaller schools, outside of Carroll. Doesn’t help that Yorktown has fallen off, and even they are 2A. And while RTCs like the one at Indiana Tech are trying to get a foothold, there’s nothing in the area like a Red Cobra, CIA, Mauer Coughlin, or RWA. 

There is the quality of knowledge similar to Red Cobra, etc.  In fact some of the very clubs you mentioned I’m in close contact with often.  A hard fact is that is overlooked in FW that everyone ignores: the ones who could actually help aren’t around or can’t legally do it.  That’s real.  So some expungements got to happen and we need to expand the knowledge vacuum and open up our rooms and put egos to the side or we will continue to be last.  I’ve been I every wrestling room in town: I know the issues we have up close.  We now have some generational talent coming in.  I hope we can get it together.  I can’t convince my Kids mom to let my boys come here from Cedar Rapids where they would be in arguably the toughest conference in the country: if Snider doesn’t win regionals or have a state champ in the next two years.  Veazy and Hinton are cousins who could be generational talents.  They need to be developed and allowed to reach their full potential.  We cannot muck this up.

[Wrestling Scholar]

45 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Should I say class wrestling now and get booed out of the room?

 

Or should I start toward the door and say it on my way out?

i got a feeling the big annual class wrestling thread is coming soon.    Get you're debate ammunition ready for the annual trip down the old polarized but entertaining class wrestling rabbit hole.

[TeamGarcia]

17 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

i got a feeling the big annual class wrestling thread is coming soon.    Get you're debate ammunition ready for the annual trip down the old polarized but entertaining class wrestling rabbit hole.

[SWINfan]

3 hours ago, Ftwaynewrestlingfan said:

I’ve been around and seen hayhurst wrestle since middle school. I don’t think it’s fair for someone to say a Friday nighter would 100% beat an undefeated senior who was a semi finalist last year. 

 

No one did.  The word used was "could".  Go back and read it again.

[TeamGarcia]

16 minutes ago, SWINfan said:

 

No one did.  The word used was "could".  Go back and read it again.

Excuse @Ftwaynewrestlingfan... jumping to conclusions. They probably just jump the gun a bit on The Fort wrestling. It’s been a while . Everybody just needs to calm down . Breathe ..... 10-9-8-7-6

[Galagore]

5 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

i got a feeling the big annual class wrestling thread is coming soon.    Get you're debate ammunition ready for the annual trip down the old polarized but entertaining class wrestling rabbit hole.

We might set a record for the latest date in the season to have one...supposing that it actually materializes. There's better than 10% chance that everyone on both sides just carries on with their lives.

 

For the record, I have a student teacher this quarter, so I am fully game for explaining why a two-class system makes the most sense for the individual wrestling tournament in Indiana.

[Ftwaynewrestlingfan]

On 2/9/2021 at 8:22 PM, Galagore said:

We might set a record for the latest date in the season to have one...supposing that it actually materializes. There's better than 10% chance that everyone on both sides just carries on with their lives.

 

For the record, I have a student teacher this quarter, so I am fully game for explaining why a two-class system makes the most sense for the individual wrestling tournament in Indiana.

Go on...

[Galagore]

21 minutes ago, Ftwaynewrestlingfan said:

Go on...

Maybe I am being trolled, but frankly, I don't care.

 

In general, small school wrestlers live in small towns, which means they do not have access to the kinds of training and competition resources available at a bigger school in a bigger town. If you take a look at the club circuit (on a normal year) it is easy to see that a young athlete form a small town has to go to much greater lengths to simply compete than one from a large area. Additionally, at a larger school, you are significantly more likely to have people right in your own room who are quality athletes, thus capable of helping you improve.

 

These are two examples of why wrestling in a smaller school is very much a different "game" than wrestling in a larger school. Moving to a two-class individual tournament would allow wrestlers to compete in an arena where the preparation opportunities are significantly more equitable.

 

If I didn't kill the thread before, it is likely fully dead now.

[Wrestling Scholar]

On 2/9/2021 at 1:27 PM, maligned said:

The denial point is true but understandable. You've still got a good amount of high-end star power to distract from the extreme drop-off in depth. Also, the drop-off has happened rather rapidly in the last 5 or 6 years, so owning the "little brother" role probably hasn't fully happened yet for a semi-state that was so loaded in the 2000s and early 2010s.

Maligned,  have you ever applied your genius ratings at the semi state level, in a similar way you do for sectionals and regionals?  I know your busy, but that would give some perspective to depth.   By the way, did I miss the old Genius ratings this year?

[maligned]

3 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Maligned,  have you ever applied your genius ratings at the semi state level, in a similar way you do for sectionals and regionals?  I know your busy, but that would give some perspective to depth.   By the way, did I miss the old Genius ratings this year?

Yes, I was just telling someone else this. A typical year has consistently yielded FW at about 3.6 or 3.7 "deserved" state qualifiers per weight and the other three sites in the 4.0 to 4.2 range. I've never run it where the gap was nearly big enough to justify using "Categories" where we award 5 state qualifiers per weight a certain site and 3 at another the way we do for sectional and regional. It's similar to the phenomenon at the Avon/Mooresville sectionals that feed into the Mooresville regional. Usually the Avon sectional will send more to semi-state even though we give the Mooresville sectional a higher category usually. The depth in terms of regional qualifier-level talent is more at Mooresville even though the higher-end talent at Avon has looked more impressive once they're head to head trying to earn semi-state bids. The depth of state qualifier talent at FW isn't as low as people assume just because the high-end talent of the bigger schools holds somewhat of a head-to-head edge in the first round at state and a monster edge by the finals.

[M109R]

On 2/11/2021 at 10:48 AM, Galagore said:

Maybe I am being trolled, but frankly, I don't care.

 

In general, small school wrestlers live in small towns, which means they do not have access to the kinds of training and competition resources available at a bigger school in a bigger town. If you take a look at the club circuit (on a normal year) it is easy to see that a young athlete form a small town has to go to much greater lengths to simply compete than one from a large area. Additionally, at a larger school, you are significantly more likely to have people right in your own room who are quality athletes, thus capable of helping you improve.

 

These are two examples of why wrestling in a smaller school is very much a different "game" than wrestling in a larger school. Moving to a two-class individual tournament would allow wrestlers to compete in an arena where the preparation opportunities are significantly more equitable.

 

If I didn't kill the thread before, it is likely fully dead now.

We have one of the best State Finals in the country . It is because we are a single class. Everyone in Attendance is watching 2 wrestlers under the lights , Not 4 , 6 , 8 or 10  and then wondering who is really the best wrestler . 

[Y2CJ41]

11 minutes ago, M109R said:

We have one of the best State Finals in the country . It is because we are a single class. Everyone in Attendance is watching 2 wrestlers under the lights , Not 4 , 6 , 8 or 10  and then wondering who is really the best wrestler . 

Are you willing to sacrifice that for 500 more kids experiencing this great sport each year?

[M109R]

10 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Are you willing to sacrifice that for 500 more kids experiencing this great sport each year?

I don’t agree with that number, most kids start wrestling because they like it, not because they feel they can win a state championship.So how can you expect 500 more to come out for wrestling ? Talk to parents that have had kids wrestle in a state that has class wrestling. They will tell you their state championships are boring. 

[Y2CJ41]

6 minutes ago, M109R said:

I don’t agree with that number, most kids start wrestling because they like it, not because they feel they can win a state championship.So how can you expect 500 more to come out for wrestling ? Talk to parents that have had kids wrestle in a state that has class wrestling. They will tell you their state championships are boring. 

So are you willing to keep the spotlight if we lose 50 programs that have wrestling in the state?

[M109R]

Have we lost 50 Programs in the last 5 Years , 10 years ? Why are we all of the sudden going to lose 50 programs if we don't go to class wrestling ? Small schools that don't/can't field a complete team are not going to magically find wrestlers if we go to class wrestling . 

[TeamGarcia]

On 2/9/2021 at 3:06 PM, Wrestling Scholar said:

i got a feeling the big annual class wrestling thread is coming soon.    Get you're debate ammunition ready for the annual trip down the old polarized but entertaining class wrestling rabbit hole.

Why you do this man ?  
 

DISCLAIMER 

* No Animals Was Hurt In This Video * 

 

[Galagore]

48 minutes ago, M109R said:

We have one of the best State Finals in the country . It is because we are a single class. Everyone in Attendance is watching 2 wrestlers under the lights , Not 4 , 6 , 8 or 10  and then wondering who is really the best wrestler . 

It certainly would not be a great idea to make decisions for amateur child athletes based on "everyone in attendance."

[Y2CJ41]

12 minutes ago, M109R said:

Have we lost 50 Programs in the last 5 Years , 10 years ? Why are we all of the sudden going to lose 50 programs if we don't go to class wrestling ? Small schools that don't/can't field a complete team are not going to magically find wrestlers if we go to class wrestling . 

I'm trying to gauge at what level would YOU would think that the sport is hurting enough to look into class wrestling. If we lose 50 programs is that enough? What about 100? What about 200? At what point tips the scales and you think there potentially is a participation issue here in Indiana?

[M109R]

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I'm trying to gauge at what level would YOU would think that the sport is hurting enough to look into class wrestling. If we lose 50 programs is that enough? What about 100? What about 200? At what point tips the scales and you think there potentially is a participation issue here in Indiana?

Class Wrestling would hurt the sport in Indiana just like it did for Basketball . Most people on this board would be all for class wrestling  if we actually thought it would grow the sport . The only positive would be more wrestlers get Rings all while destroying the state finals . Indiana Basketball has been declining in participation and attendance at an alarming rate over the last 20 years . I wonder why ?

[Y2CJ41]

Just now, M109R said:

Class Wrestling would hurt the sport in Indiana just like it did for Basketball . Most people on this board would be all for class wrestling  if we actually thought it would grow the sport . The only positive would be more wrestlers get Rings all while destroying the state finals . Indiana Basketball has been declining in participation and attendance at an alarming rate over the last 20 years . I wonder why ?

Per the NFHS data we have lost 2000 wrestlers in Indiana.

https://members.nfhs.org/participation_statistics

or if you want to see forfeit data also

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Knl68lI1LvTmzACIn5kK3Uq3KCHTLEATGFHE_TdciEU/edit?usp=sharing

 

What would you attribute the decline in participation in wrestling to? Obviously the decline in basketball was due to class basketball.

[Galagore]

8 minutes ago, M109R said:

Class Wrestling would hurt the sport in Indiana just like it did for Basketball . Most people on this board would be all for class wrestling  if we actually thought it would grow the sport . The only positive would be more wrestlers get Rings all while destroying the state finals . Indiana Basketball has been declining in participation and attendance at an alarming rate over the last 20 years . I wonder why ?

Basketball has been on decline on the national level as well. Wrestling has been increasing nationally, but not in Indiana. There are significantly more states that have class wrestling than do not, so if class wrestling were going to cause a decrease or stagnation in participation, why would wrestling numbers be increasing nationally?