Last state dual tournament this year

[zachpierson]

It was stated earlier in this thread.  Team state was nice but not essential.  I would certainly never campaign against it but now that it's not here it really has very little bearing on the vast majority of kids lacing them up and hitting the mats.  All the Perry and Mish supporters, get on here all you want and try and make us all believe that wrestling is a team endeavor.  It has been for you guys and that's great.  I'm sorry you believe something essential to the sport is being taken away.  Guess your programs are simply going to whither and die now that that team title isn't there as the ultimate prize.  I'm sorry for your loss but the programs you compete with will be delighted with your demise.  More kids from other schools will advance through the Individual Series because your teams just won't be able to compete at an individual level.  I'm being facetious obviously but that is what you guys are making it sound like.   MOST people that wrestle come to it because they are individualists.  They love the fact that win or lose, it all falls on their shoulders.  No "well if the D would have pulled their weight tonight, we would've won" or "our running game lost it for us" etc, etc.  Obviously the comraderie of the team is fun and even winning duals and tourney's as a team is fun but it always comes back to the individual.  If you're team gets smoked and you were the only guy to win a match, MOST wrestlers would be a touch bummed their team lost but fairly ecstatic that they were the only one who kept up their end of the bargain by winning.  Maybe that's not 90% of the wrestling world anymore but it sure was when I wrestled in the 80's.

 

 

not essentials for what? to prove who has the best team???? your right 1old did indian creek even win their sectional???

 

 

Summary of Team Standings

School 1. Franklin 241.5 2. Center Grove 218 3. Indian Creek 173

 

 

nope they got 3rd in sectional and 2nd in the state? haha man

[unclelouie]

It was stated earlier in this thread.  Team state was nice but not essential.  I would certainly never campaign against it but now that it's not here it really has very little bearing on the vast majority of kids lacing them up and hitting the mats.  All the Perry and Mish supporters, get on here all you want and try and make us all believe that wrestling is a team endeavor.  It has been for you guys and that's great.  I'm sorry you believe something essential to the sport is being taken away.  Guess your programs are simply going to whither and die now that that team title isn't there as the ultimate prize.  I'm sorry for your loss but the programs you compete with will be delighted with your demise.  More kids from other schools will advance through the Individual Series because your teams just won't be able to compete at an individual level.  I'm being facetious obviously but that is what you guys are making it sound like.   MOST people that wrestle come to it because they are individualists.  They love the fact that win or lose, it all falls on their shoulders.  No "well if the D would have pulled their weight tonight, we would've won" or "our running game lost it for us" etc, etc.  Obviously the comraderie of the team is fun and even winning duals and tourney's as a team is fun but it always comes back to the individual.  If you're team gets smoked and you were the only guy to win a match, MOST wrestlers would be a touch bummed their team lost but fairly ecstatic that they were the only one who kept up their end of the bargain by winning.  Maybe that's not 90% of the wrestling world anymore but it sure was when I wrestled in the 80's.

 

 

 

 

Well said 1old. Seems to be a lot of whining. Selling Team was a big thing for getting kids in their room. A lot of moving around happened so you could be a part of a great TEAM. It will be interesting to see what develops. Apparently 14 other people thought so too, Including Bobby Cox.

[zachpierson]

lol ya all bobby cox buddies who are afraid to go against him. Why isn't his position an elected position?

[unclelouie]

lol ya all bobby cox buddies who are afraid to go against him. Why isn't his position an elected position?

 

You have been drinking that Perry Kool-Aid too long ;D ;D My daughter would call this a DD Joke.

[zachpierson]

You have been drinking that Perry Kool-Aid too long ;D ;D My daughter would call this a DD Joke.

 

which means what? caring about kids in our school? who will probably quit wrestling because at some weights on our team they have no chance at making varsity and will get into other stuff that will hurt them in the long run. If that is what you are talking about then yes i have been drinking a keg of it a day.

[unclelouie]

Not to worry. They will not quit. They will just move to another school to find a spot so they can compete for an individual place on the podium.  ;D ;D ;D Another  DD Joke

[zachpierson]

Not to worry. They will not quit. They will just move to another school to find a spot so they can compete for an individual place on the podium.  ;D ;D ;D Another  DD Joke

 

no clue what DD joke is  :

[Jimtown 138]

Here's a couple Bobby Cox quotes about team state-

 

"Some coaches held their top wrestlers out of it to better prepare them for the individual tournament series".

 

And -

 

"The concurrent running of both the team and individual tournaments created a hardship amoung advancing student-athletes and in some instances, produced undesirable results".

 

The first one is self explanatory, but what is the second one about?

[MattM]

The change will put more butts in the seats at Individual State  and cause the IHSAA less logistics to manage.  Which is what drove most of the IHSAA decision to end the event.  Will it equal the amount of people that attended the team state competition, that is yet to be seen.  However, I'm not sure the change will actually grow the sport athletical much.  Either way we still have the individual state and the kids that are motivated enough on varsity will continue to do well in that if we have team state or not so no real change in participation levels there.  But, losing the team side of things may obviously will give some kids (whose team has the potional for being part of a team regional or state) one less thing to be interested in sticking around for.  Obviously, the IHSAA can say that teams doing well in each level of the Individual Tournament points race will attract more participation in the long run, but that may not be to fruitful except for the team winning state or being runners up since those type of wins involves a little less of a team concept.  So it easy to see the IHSAA was looking at the move because of financial and logistical reason more than thinking it would somehow help participation levels.

[AJ]

Whats the point in even having practices just have 1 hour individual sessions with 4 or 5 people. State Champs!!!!!!! oh ya and you other 10 or 9 people can have rings too I guess.

 

So are you saying that individual tournament series then eliminates the need for a strong team to push each other and to grow and get better?  If you look at the teams that made it to team state, all except Delphi had multiple state qualifiers.  Thus giving them all an opportunity to win an individual scored tournament.  One could argue that the dominate teams are also now the dominant individual scoring teams.   PM, CP, EMD, Penn, Bellmont, Ytown, and Mishawaka are all dominant teams and also have dominant individual performances.   So maybe the team approach also works in an individual sport scoring system if it is pushed and pursued??????

 

 

[zachpierson]

So are you saying that individual tournament series then eliminates the need for a strong team to push each other and to grow and get better?  If you look at the teams that made it to team state, all except Delphi had multiple state qualifiers.  Thus giving them all an opportunity to win an individual scored tournament.  One could argue that the dominate teams are also now the dominant individual scoring teams.   PM, CP, EMD, Penn, Bellmont, Ytown, and Mishawaka are all dominant teams and also have dominant individual performances.   So maybe the team approach also works in an individual sport scoring system if it is pushed and pursued??????

 

 

 

i am not saying the need is not there. it will not change coach tonte and schoettle's coaching style at all. i am just frustrated that is all, cause i love the team aspect of our sport and feel that it is gonna be taken away with the new system.

[1oldwrestler]

which means what? caring about kids in our school? who will probably quit wrestling because at some weights on our team they have no chance at making varsity and will get into other stuff that will hurt them in the long run.

 

C'mon dude.  The next thing I'm going to hear from you is that a cure for all cancers was just about to be announced thanks to Indiana's Team State program but that evil *&%$# Cox wants people to die from cancer so he canceled team state.  The sun will come up tomorrow and the world will continue to spin on it's axis.  Hang in there.  Btw, wrestling will survive too.

[zachpierson]

No you won't hear me say that cause that has nothing to do with wrestling.

 

[Jimtown 138]

You make no sense with this statement. The national championship does count the dual meet is what doesn't count. Which is obvious because we all know it is no fun to win dual meets cause who cares what we can do as a group. It's all about what You can do as an individual not how you help your team. Whats the point in even having practices just have 1 hour individual sessions with 4 or 5 people. State Champs!!!!!!! oh ya and you other 10 or 9 people can have rings too I guess.

 

There were wrestling TEAMS and Dual Meets before the team state tournament ever started. Some people think that the real meaning of being on a "wrestling team" started with this state dual tournament? Please... There were wrestlers working in the practice rooms and pushing each other way before the most of you were even thought of. The whole point of wrestling is winning that "match", then winning the dual is the icing on the cake. Team comradery didn't start in 1996, it's been there for a long time.

[Thornton]

What is the goal of having a team championship? If it is to find the best team, then a dual meet format is the best way to accomplish that. Some will say that the other individual sports (swimming, cross country, tennis, golf, track and field, gymnastics)  determine their team champion with a point system at the state finals. That is true for gymnastics, cross country and golf. Teams advancing to the state finals take their entire team and the best score wins (a true team concept). Swimming, track and now wrestling determine their team champion based only upon the individuals that advance. Tennis runs a concurrent individual and team tournament, with the team champion determined first and the individual champions the following week. The difference that both wrestling and tennis have is that you can only compete against 1 person at a time. In swimming, track, cross country and golf you can compete against multiple people simultaneously and in the case of heats, the arbitor is the stopwatch (an objective standard). Wrestling is a different animal because without full wrestlebacks, the best kids don't always make it to the state finals. And I don't even want to hear the "well how many times does he get to lose before he is done" argument. State champion runners, jumpers, throwers, swimmers and golfers often don't win every step along the tournament. I have a new class coming in, so rant off.

[Timeinandout]

There were TEAMS and Dual Meets before the team state tournament, during, and after. People think that the real meaning of being on a "wrestling team" started with this team tournament? Please... There were wrestlers working in the practice rooms and pushing each other way before the most of you were even thought of. The whole point of wrestling is winning that "match", winning the dual is the icing on the cake. Team comradery didn't start in 1996. It's been there for a long time.

Yeah, but wrestling has changed a lot since 1990.  We don't have many week night duals anymore.  Those weeknight duals are some of the most exciting matches to attend.  That is why I enjoy the Team series so much.  

[indyt]

let me look at Bobby's quotes.  First, its only happened a few times where teams put in their back ups and it has been several years back(almost full teams).  Why didn't he seem concerned when Carmel put in some of their back up runners on the state roster so that they could rest some of their best kids and still make it through to the next level.  Or, how about when a 4 by 4 team which is allowed two alternates in track, puts the alternates in and still places top three in a heat to move on(not win the heat which is against the integrity of high school athletics-to not try to win).  Plus, whats wrong with putting young kids in when you are beat to gain experience.  Football does it every week, week end and week out for years apon years. I dont see them cancelling the football games.  Oh, and basketball does it almost every game as well.

 

He clearly said last year that losing money was not an issue which I would assume is tied to attendance(which by the way was up last year from the year before and they still made approx. 5-6ooo dollars).  As he said last year in the Indianapolis Star-it has nothing to do with money.  We lose money on lots of sports.

 

The coaches wanted this-actually the coaches wanted a classed team state!!!

 

and, the committee that voted 14-0 did the same thing for wrestle backs some years ago-I guess the committee understands the needs in our sport??

 

 

[Smooth34]

Team Scores

1. Penn State - 107.5

2. Cornell - 93.5

3. Iowa - 86.5

4. Oklahoma State - 70.5

5. American - 65

 

Yes, OSU and American made it a real nail biter....

 

Yeah you are right.  Finishing Top 5 at the NCAA's sucks.    

 

They both finished ahead of Minnesota who had 5 AA's.  

[Jimtown 138]

Yeah, but wrestling has changed a lot since 1990.  We don't have many week night duals anymore.  Those weeknight duals are some of the most exciting matches to attend.  That is why I enjoy the Team series so much.  

 

I miss those weekly duals myself. Two a season doesn't seem like a enough. But super duals are all we do all season until the conference tourney... so what's the difference.

[Wade McClurg]

C'mon dude.  The next thing I'm going to hear from you is that a cure for all cancers was just about to be announced thanks to Indiana's Team State program but that evil *&%$# Cox wants people to die from cancer so he canceled team state.  The sun will come up tomorrow and the world will continue to spin on it's axis.  Hang in there.  Btw, wrestling will survive too.

 

Wrestling will survive?  Whether you like team state or do not like team state that is besides the point.  The number 1 thing that you do not understand is that wrestling just lost something that was their own.  And when wrestling loses ground on something (like college programs being dropped because of lack of support, funding, Title IX, etc.) it is very likely we will never get it back.  Wrestling isn't like football and basketball programs that make a bunch of money and the programs are never in danger to get dropped.  Before you know it one day wrestling may not be surviving anymore, and it's because of people who can't or won't see the big picture and are not doing what's in the best interest of the sport and the kids involved.

[1oldwrestler]

Wrestling will survive?  Whether you like team state or do not like team state that is besides the point.  The number 1 thing that you do not understand is that wrestling just lost something that was their own.  And when wrestling loses ground on something (like college programs being dropped because of lack of support, funding, Title IX, etc.) it is very likely we will never get it back.  Wrestling isn't like football and basketball programs that make a bunch of money and the programs are never in danger to get dropped.  Before you know it one day wrestling may not be surviving anymore, and it's because of people who can't or won't see the big picture and are not doing what's in the best interest of the sport and the kids involved.

How melodramatic.

[unclelouie]

What is the goal of having a team championship? If it is to find the best team, then a dual meet format is the best way to accomplish that. Some will say that the other individual sports (swimming, cross country, tennis, golf, track and field, gymnastics)  determine their team champion with a point system at the state finals. That is true for gymnastics, cross country and golf. Teams advancing to the state finals take their entire team and the best score wins (a true team concept). Swimming, track and now wrestling determine their team champion based only upon the individuals that advance. Tennis runs a concurrent individual and team tournament, with the team champion determined first and the individual champions the following week. The difference that both wrestling and tennis have is that you can only compete against 1 person at a time. In swimming, track, cross country and golf you can compete against multiple people simultaneously and in the case of heats, the arbitor is the stopwatch (an objective standard). Wrestling is a different animal because without full wrestlebacks, the best kids don't always make it to the state finals. And I don't even want to hear the "well how many times does he get to lose before he is done" argument. State champion runners, jumpers, throwers, swimmers and golfers often don't win every step along the tournament. I have a new class coming in, so rant off.

 

So let us start working for wrestlebacks  and quit whining for the return of team state. There are other ways to make the sport better and I don't see an end to the worlds oldest sport because the state of Indiana no longer has a TEAM STATE format. Let's move forward!!

[Big Hawaiian]

So let us start working for wrestlebacks  and quit whining for the return of team state. There are other ways to make the sport better and I don't see an end to the worlds oldest sport because the state of Indiana no longer has a TEAM STATE format. Let's move forward!!

 

I think that's was tried and talked about before there was even a Team State Series  :, so lets take to steps back and hope we can pick up something that's been desired for years. That is the point, since we didn't have wrestlebacks they gave us team state, and now they take it away and we have neither. How does one not see this as going backwards? Are you so young or new to this sport that you don't remenber the years of calling for wrestlebacks? They threw us a bone and now has taken it back...

[unclelouie]

I think that's was tried and talked about before there was even a Team State Series  :, so lets take to steps back and hope we can pick up something that's been desired for years. That is the point, since we didn't have wrestlebacks they gave us team state, and now they take it away and we have neither. How does one not see this as going backwards? Are you so young or new to this sport that you don't remenber the years of calling for wrestlebacks? They threw us a bone and now has taken it back...

 

So maybe the time has come. The IHSAA is ready to look at wrestlebacks. If they do give us Wrestlebacks will you TEAM STATE guys quit whining?? I will call Bobby Cox and start the ball rolling.  ;D ;D

[MattM]

So maybe the time has come. The IHSAA is ready to look at wrestlebacks. If they do give us Wrestlebacks will you TEAM STATE guys quit whining?? I will call Bobby Cox and start the ball rolling.  ;D ;D

 

Cox and crew don't care for wrestle backs since they make the day last longer but don't put extra butts in the seat for revenue.  If you can figure out a way to not add logistical problems but advance more wrestlers though they would love it.  No added organization issues plus more families attending each event makes the money (i.e. advancing 4 to semi-state and saying its a favor to wrestling).