indyt Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 8 of the last 10 teams to win the 5A state in football have been from the MIC. That does not look good for most of us other 5A schools that play football. I am going to go to our head coach and tell him he needs to fight for a new system because he has very little chance of winning state. Its not fair to the other 5A teams. They just dont have the same chance or opportunity as the other 5A teams. And really, we should just drop girls swiiming. I would also venture to say that the majority of the coaches trophy winners in the last few years have been from the famous "30" team list that have the opportunity to wrestle in team state. I really do not like getting on this website and debating. I just feel this strong about a subject that really has helped promote the sport and has made an impact on the number of kids involved, fans involved, administrators involved..... My AD is a baseball, basketball guy. He is not real excited about individual tournaments but he likes the excitemnent of dual meets. Who doesn't except smooth, 1old and a few others out there. Sorry guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 8 of the last 10 teams to win the 5A state in football have been from the MIC. That does not look good for most of us other 5A schools that play football. I am going to go to our head coach and tell him he needs to fight for a new system because he has very little chance of winning state. Its not fair to the other 5A teams. They just dont have the same chance or opportunity as the other 5A teams. Actually the football coaches are taking a proposal to the IHSAA this year that will add a sixth class and add a multiplier based on private/parochial schools and percentage of free/reduced lunch kids in each school. So yes the football coaches are working on trying to level the field as much as possible for ALL of the teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 And, thats ok. We could have done this as well by classing the duals. But, as much as everyone wants to say it was the coaches who ruined that, I know for a fact that Bobby wants nothing to do with classing it. Period!! well, until he changes his mind again on something. But losing it was not the best option. And, his reasons seem to change from one quote to the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zachpierson Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I will try to help you out.How is the old system good for wrestling? The new system will give more teams a shot at regional/semi-state/state titles. More teams with a chance to win always tends to make those levels more exciting for the kids and the fans. Of course, the more the merrier. Can't really answer that, I was in the midst of my elustrious high school wrestling career at that time. I am sure some of the older guys would know. Winning a random dual throughout the season doesn?t translate into not being able to make it to state. Every team ?has a chance to make it to state,? but the reality is most know before the season how good their chances are. Here is an example for you from a small school perspective. When you are at a small school have a lot more peaks and valleys in terms of talent in athletics in the school. This not only goes for wrestling, but all the sports. In a single class system you must hope for that peak to be at a time where not only you have a good team, but other teams must also be down somewhat for you to sneak a title in. In 2004 we had a team that was tough as nails and 20-1 during the season with our only loss to Columbia City(top 4 in the state that year). This was a special team where we had 13(not a full lineup) kids that were solid from top to bottom. We beat some solid teams that year and it was a very special year. We ended up 3rd in our sectional and even if we would have made it to team regional we would have been whooped by Columbia City again. If we would have had that team a couple years ago we would have won sectional and been fighting for a spot at team state. Unfortunately, it was the wrong year to have a very good team. Again in 2009 we were poised to have another very special team. We knew ahead of time that up and down the line-up we would have solid wrestlers mixed in with a few very good ones. We were lucky in that it seemed everyone would be spread out amongst the weight classes and we might have had a couple small holes in the lineup. We also knew that the other good teams in the area were going to be somewhat down that year and we had the makings of a great season. Unfortunately, early in the season one kid was dismissed from the team for athletic code violations and another had to have shoulder surgery. We lost two very good wrestlers and had to replace them with vastly inferior replacements and our hopes were dashed. We had a great season and even with another injury were 8 points from our first sectional title. The point of those two examples is that at a small school there MUST be a perfect storm for them to have a special season. If one piece to the puzzle is missing however, the whole season can be affected. At a bigger school your peaks and valleys are less significant and when you lose a wrestler(injury, suspension, etc) it is easier to replace him with a wrestler that can hold his own. It gets us a dual meet win and if it is a conference dual one step closer to a conference tournament.In reality yes, a single kid can only wrestle one match. If they win their match they are doing their part in a dual. Yes. Settle down there, take a deep breath and count backwards from 10. i just have never seen wrestling as an individual sport. my senior year (2002) i was preseason ranked 2nd at 215. Our 171lber couldn't make it. i was down to weight and decided to bump up to heavyweight so that we could get a very good wrestler in the line up and so that we could get our best team on the mat. And you can't say perry has always been good since i have been there cause my 6th grade year we were 6-7 and 7th grade 4-13 and 8th grade year 5-15 freshman year 19-1 weren't even sectional champs. So no we didn't talk about team state. I hate when people say wrestling is an individual sport. I don't practice by myself or for myself. I practiced with my teammates and we got better as a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 So I don't see how the new/old system is better for wrestling. Can someone please explain it to me? Can you explain how the team series format was/is better for wrestling? Key phrase is better for wrestling. If you take emotion out of it what exactly is your argument that proves or shows that the team series was good for wrestling, not just good for a few schools but for the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Wrestling is a sport like no other, a solo fight in your teams honor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zachpierson Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Can you explain how the team series format was/is better for wrestling? Key phrase is better for wrestling. If you take emotion out of it what exactly is your argument that proves or shows that the team series was good for wrestling, not just good for a few schools but for the sport. well at perry it might sound bad but lets be honest we have some kids that come out just for the chance to get a ring. These kids more often than not make our varsity team at some point in their careers and without the excitement of team state i will not be shocked if the number of these kids that come out depletes. So therefore the number of kids that come out for our team will be lower and take down the number of kids that are interested in wrestling down which in my eyes isn't what we are striving for. Most of these kids aren't delusional they know their role on the team and they play them well. They make it to semi state and then at team state beat a state qualifier to make it to the team state finals and pretty much win us the state championship i.e. Sam tasseff. He would've never got the opportunity to feel as big of a role in the state championship if it were the individual scoring system cause he drew mitch sliga in the ticket round. So i see this move as bad one if they don't add wrestle backs to get the best kids to state cause then there isn't really anyway to get a true champion if they got unlucky in the draw. ps sorry for the run ons haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Can you explain how the team series format was/is better for wrestling? Key phrase is better for wrestling. If you take emotion out of it what exactly is your argument that proves or shows that the team series was good for wrestling, not just good for a few schools but for the sport. If numbers are something that is good for wrestling then I think that team state is something that helped wrestling greatly. The top teams had to produce top programs not just individuals to compete at that top level. They needed all 14 guys to be tough every year not just 4 or 5. Those top teams also needed to have top notch JV kids to fill in the graduating kids spots so that they could stay on top year after year. So getting and keeping kids out for these teams would cause their numbers to grow. The teams that where behind these teams in turn had to produce better teams in an attempt to catch the team in front of them. Unless of course you just give up on the idea that your team/ program can ever get any better, in that case I guess that is your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 My AD is a baseball, basketball guy. He is not real excited about individual tournaments but he likes the excitemnent of dual meets. Who doesn't except smooth, 1old and a few others out there. Sorry guys! I'm going to share a story that would surprise a few of you because I'm viewed as one if the "non team" supporters. A couple of years ago during my oldest's Senior year he lost in the semis of sectionals to a kid he had went back a forth with over their careers. Terrible time to lose but lose he did. Suffice it to say he would have had a better time at Regionals if he threw the 3/4 place match and took 4th. In his emotional state after losing his semi match he suggested losing on purpose to make his shot at making the finals at Regionals easier or better (my son would have had a better chance facing the kid he lost to in the semis at Sectionals in the Regional semis than facing the kid that won his Sectonals in the Regional semis, convoluted I know but most of you understand this). Though crushed and hurting for him after his Sectional loss, when he suggested throwing the match, I kind of came unglued and beasted him out for even thinking such a thing. I told him his team was depending on him and everyone of his teammates to place as highly possible in an effort to win Sectionals as a team. He stuck the kid in the 3/4 place match and his team won Sectionals by half a team point. He and I talk about that and he's glad he did what he did but his individual accomplishmets far outweigh that team championship. They got beat the next week at team Regionals, BTW and the individual pursuit, which was never supplanted by team pursuit, took over. I have heard that some coaches aren't quite as noble and I think a few years ago one of them (not sure who) may have even suggested a kid throw a championship match in Sectionals to get a better draw in Regionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I liken the team series to the Ryder Cup in PGA golf. I don't typically watch many of the individual tournaments - because I am a casual fan Im not familiar with many beyond the top 3 or 4 big names on the tour. But when a group of guys starts competing as "Team USA" I am much more likely to follow the competition, and as a fan I am more interested in the non-marquee players' contribution to the squad, and the team strategy involved in setting the match ups. I would love to see a classed team tournament, which would allow for the smaller schools to have a shot even as they deal with unique issues like filling all the weight classes. The big schools could use their depth to formulate the best match ups. A smaller school dual championship could generate a lot of excitement within the community as they follow their TEAM hopefully to state. The 8-21 record heavyweight with a bazillions cousins and uncles is going to bring the crowd in to see if his might be the match that decides the dual for their hometown. I think this would be good for the sport of wrestling, and would get many more casual fans involved than the individual tournament does -- it is more for the faithful wrestling follower (and would remain so even if you classed it, in my opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Actually the football coaches are taking a proposal to the IHSAA this year that will add a sixth class and add a multiplier based on private/parochial schools and percentage of free/reduced lunch kids in each school. So yes the football coaches are working on trying to level the field as much as possible for ALL of the teams. Yeah, like that hasn't been tried before by the football programs that dont win ??? Same concept I guess lets find a way to get our team a title, other than just beating who's been put in front of you...Same teams seem to win regularly because they have the best programs, it's a pretty simple concept!! How do you see a team that has losses on it season against a team that's undefeated and they may have even went head to head, but your State Champ could be the team with the losses?? It's just wrong! Although I agree with Y2 that the leaders of this sport for the most part woke up a little late on finding a workable souloution (such as classing team state), which I must say I wasn't big on until it was a good alternitive to loosing team state series altogether.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Can you explain how the team series format was/is better for wrestling? Key phrase is better for wrestling. If you take emotion out of it what exactly is your argument that proves or shows that the team series was good for wrestling, not just good for a few schools but for the sport. Maybe because the BEST TEAM is not crowned the State's Best Team!! Simple enough : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Maybe because the BEST TEAM is not crowned the State's Best Team!! Simple enough : The best team doesnt always win in a dual format either. Things happen in wrestling. So that is not simple enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timeinandout Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The best team doesnt always win in a dual format either. Things happen in wrestling. So that is not simple enough... In the team format, the best team that day is the champ. In the individual format, 75%(or more) of the championship team won't even compete in the tournament. AJ, why don't you like the team tournament? I hate the excuse that "the same teams always win." That isn't always true. Perry wins their first last year and there are several other teams that have built a solid program that also want a shot at there first team title. The same teams are always there because they are the best teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Well, no matter if you like it or you don't like the situation, it's over after this year. Did any of you guys get to vote on it's fate? The IHSAA executive committee voted 14-0 to drop it. Sounds like some hard core wrestling fans... They also will revert back the old "Coaches Trophy" scoring to determine the team state champs. Last year Perry Meridian won the state team title, but Crown Point would have won under the Coaches Trophy system with Indian Creek a close second... As a consolation, IHSAA will help the Indiana Wrestling Coaches Association set up it's own state team tournament... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrick Snyder Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I can only spreak from personal experience, but at Mishawaka we have put a special emphasis on the team since I have been here. My first year we had 30 wrestlers. We have had over 70 come out for the team each of the past 5 years. We now have to have cuts as our room will only hold about 60 guys. So yes the focus on the team has increased our numbers. Bradon Straub, Christian Lentz, Alex White, Anthony Eddy, are all wrestlers that only wrestled because of Team State the last few years. Lentz was a two time state runner-up and only stayed out as a senior to help us win Team State. I have heard similar stories from other programs. If we could have gotten the IHSAA to class it so many other schools would know what I am talking about. I hate it when people insist on us being an individual sport. What do the most popular sports have in common? They are TEAM sports. Yet we have people that want us to be an individual sport. That makes no sense if you want wrestling to grow. My indivdiuals have trained harder because of our emphasis on the team. They have improved and done better in the individual season because they are not only training for themselves, but also for their teammates. They train even harder because of the TEAM! Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 In the team format, the best team that day is the champ. In the individual format, 75%(or more) of the championship team won't even compete in the tournament. AJ, why don't you like the team tournament? I hate the excuse that "the same teams always win." That isn't always true. Perry wins their first last year and there are several other teams that have built a solid program that also want a shot at there first team title. The same teams are always there because they are the best teams. Just because I asked a question does not mean I dont like the team series. I do like it, but all I asked is how has it HELPED wrestling. Some people seem to act like this will kill the sport and I just want to know how the sport has changed so drastically these past 16 years that it will be seriously hurt by the change. And you talk as if Perry was never a top team until this year when they won it. They have been a regular at the team state series. And they deserved all the success that they had!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightinstructor Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I say we look at the bright side...we will still have the team format per the coaches association and also enjoy the excitement of the point system updates at individual state(which makes the tournament so much more exciting). Crowd participation is so much greater when real time updates are given at state anyway. I feel something has been missing from state without said updates for years and I know I'm not alone on this, I've heard it from many people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Bring back the organ too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Show me a team that has had less than 4 AA's (that's not including wrestlers who scored points but didn't place) and was a serious threat at winning a national title. Here's a link to previous results to help you out. http://www.wrestlingstats.com/ncaa/brackets.htm Last year, Oklahoma State only had 3 AA's and finished 4th. American only had 3 AA's and finished 5th. Maybe that's not your definition of being in contention for a National Championship, but finishing in the Top 5 seems pretty legit. Nebraska finished 12th and they only had one AA. National Champ and Hodge Trophy winner, Jordan Burroughs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 If you get beat during the season in a dual and win the state title because of a flawed system does it really mean that much? Iowa beat Penn State 22-13 last year at Penn State. I guess Penn State probably doesn't celebrate their National Championship since it doesn't really count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorktownPatriot Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Earlier in this thread the statement and/or question was made. "How is Team State better for wrestling" When I wrestled back in the early 80's, then my sons in the early 90's Satudays were filled with Individual Tournaments, where most Elementary Schools had maybe 10 kids participating in the Individual Tournaments. I moved to North Carolina in the mid 90's returning to Indiana in 2005, got remarried to a woman in 2008 who at that time has a 7 year old son. So I convince my wife to have him try wrestling, which he does and is still wrestling today. Me being back in Indiana am assuming that wrestling is still the same as when I left, but of course I find out about the Elementray Duals, where you have a team of 20 kids competing in a team enviroment on a Sunday. Compared to the maybe 10 kids from an Elementary School on a Saturday. I truly do not believe you see the number of Elementary kids wresting today with out Team State being a part of HS Wrestling the last 15 years. To me that is how it has made it BETTER for wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zachpierson Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Iowa beat Penn State 22-13 last year at Penn State. I guess Penn State probably doesn't celebrate their National Championship since it doesn't really count. You make no sense with this statement. The national championship does count the dual meet is what doesn't count. Which is obvious because we all know it is no fun to win dual meets cause who cares what we can do as a group. It's all about what You can do as an individual not how you help your team. Whats the point in even having practices just have 1 hour individual sessions with 4 or 5 people. State Champs!!!!!!! oh ya and you other 10 or 9 people can have rings too I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 You make no sense with this statement. The national championship does count the dual meet is what doesn't count. He was being sarcastic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 It was stated earlier in this thread. Team state was nice but not essential. I would certainly never campaign against it but now that it's not here it really has very little bearing on the vast majority of kids lacing them up and hitting the mats. All the Perry and Mish supporters, get on here all you want and try and make us all believe that wrestling is a team endeavor. It has been for you guys and that's great. I'm sorry you believe something essential to the sport is being taken away. Guess your programs are simply going to whither and die now that that team title isn't there as the ultimate prize. I'm sorry for your loss but the programs you compete with will be delighted with your demise. More kids from other schools will advance through the Individual Series because your teams just won't be able to compete at an individual level. I'm being facetious obviously but that is what you guys are making it sound like. MOST people that wrestle come to it because they are individualists. They love the fact that win or lose, it all falls on their shoulders. No "well if the D would have pulled their weight tonight, we would've won" or "our running game lost it for us" etc, etc. Obviously the comraderie of the team is fun and even winning duals and tourney's as a team is fun but it always comes back to the individual. If you're team gets smoked and you were the only guy to win a match, MOST wrestlers would be a touch bummed their team lost but fairly ecstatic that they were the only one who kept up their end of the bargain by winning. Maybe that's not 90% of the wrestling world anymore but it sure was when I wrestled in the 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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