Ideas for team state

[KarlHungus]

Coach Peck,

 

I don't think facilities would be too hard to come by.  Some AD's out there would be smart enough to realize that hosting a "State" Tournament without having to turn in ALL their ticket money to the IHSAA is a GREAT idea.  But this brings us to another point......would the host site(s) have to turn in money to the IHSWCA or just keep the profits?  Things to think about.

 

 

-Pat Wilkins

 

I haven't run the numbers but if 300 schools paid a 50 entry fee to be in the IHSWCA state tournament that would bring 15K that could be used to pay officials, meet workers, awards and probably have $$ left over for the association.  Gates could be kept by the hosts and allow for rotating of site if more than one school wants to host.

[Y2CJ41]

The gate could also be split between all the schools such as sectionals are done now.  This would give all AD's a reason to back this.

[samaj]

I think a huge key here would be to somehow ease into this so that schedules can be revised over time, etc etc.  AD's are going to be much more willing to help if thats the case.  From this coaches perspective I think it would be very smart, and would get alot of people behind this event if it was an ALL IN event.  If you leave teams out, or try to do an invite only thing, we are right back to 90% of the teams in Indiana not caring about the event since their team has no shot of being involved in it.  Let everyone in, and class it and you will have quite a bit of support.  Any coach who chose to not be involved in this event would be shot by their parents and booster clubs.

 

We need to think MONDAYS for now.  I know it stinks for weight, but that's why we should think Mondays.  Nobody wrestles on Mondays and furthermore, there is no varsity basketball on Mondays.  It would be an empty night that we could schedule on right away and not have to change anything for a couple years. We wanted to wrestle Castle in a weeknight dual and we wrestled on Monday night two years in a row until we could clear the schedule and find  another night.  Coach Harmon and I didn't like it, and it wasn't a perfect situation, but we still had great dual meets and everyone made weight both years.

 

Monday of week before Xmas Break - Sectionals

First Monday after Xmas Break - Regionals

Following Saturday (5 days later) - Finals

 

This would not interfer with any christmas tournaments.

This would not interfer with current schedules (except for the Finals weekend..which is known as the BELLMONT WEEKEND)

This gives the maximum amount of time for a team to qualify for the finals and make plans for travel. (five days instead of 2 in some suggestions)

 

This would allow the IHSWCA to give everyone notice that the 2013 and 2014 tournaments would be Monday night based events and that the change to Tuesdays would take place in 2015.  (if thats what they choose to do) That gives school three years to free up two Tuesday nights.  Overall though, I think Mondays work great.  Its TWO Mondays tops and if a team knows they have a state tournament event on Monday, they will make adjustments over the weekend and be prepared to compete on a Monday.

 

Coach Gelarden was correct in that everyone would need to state their intent to participate early enough to get the event planned.  I think would need to be a year in advance if possible.  We would rely heavily on the 16 regional reps to find out who intends to compete and who does not.  I think it should be mandatory that the head coach be a member of the IHSWCA for their team to compete.

 

If we suddenly had 500 coaches association memberships, and we had an IHSWCA State Tournament that was making substantial money, the IHSAA would look foolish and I for one would enjoy that.

 

[Coach Seltzer]

I think if we do go to an IHSWCA "state" dual tournament.. We have to petition the IHSAA to go from 18 to 20 dates. I would hate to lose a good tourney or super dual for a shot to be one or two and done as a team.

[base]

It is kind of like the two Raccoons we had when I was a kid. ....

 

Sorry for the tangent, but wanted to give a Wahoo to Coach Peck for this intro to a comparison.  Coach, I will 100% buy into any comparison you want to make when you start it with the sentence above.  ;D

 

 

OK, on topic....for those of you endorsing the one-week tournament scenario, please keep in mind that the schedule on this would be very tight, and would take place during one of the weeks most likely to see weather-related delays or cancellations.  I cannot imagine the level of clusterf&%* that would result from the entire northern or southern part of the state having a few days of school cancelled during the first part of qualifying.

[GrecoCoach]

I think if we do go to an IHSWCA "state" dual tournament.. We have to petition the IHSAA to go from 18 to 20 dates. I would hate to lose a good tourney or super dual for a shot to be one or two and done as a team.

 

We'd need 2 extra weigh-in points IF the IHSAA considers it one long spread out tournament.  Otherwise, based on some of the scenerios listed, it could take up to 6 extra weigh-in points for the 3 levels of multiple school events.  (or the IHSAA could just make everyone drop 3 tournaments)

[Y2CJ41]

What is going to be the purpose of this event? 

 

1. Is the purpose to get something started that maybe/possibly/hopefully the IHSAA will take over in the future?

If this is the purpose then we need to model it after the IHSAA tournaments in other sports with all-in and no seeding. 

 

2. Is the purpose just to have a meet where teams come and get a big trophy presented by the IHSWCA and you can be called their champion?

If this is the purpose we can invite teams however we want, via Genius Ratings, last year's individual state series results, by committee, etc.

 

My understanding is #1 is the answer, but I may be wrong.

[FlyNavy]

It is kind of like the two Raccoons we had when I was a kid.  You could give the Raccoons a sugar cube which they got really excited over and then watch them start to wash it, like raccoons do, and see it disappear in their little hands.

 

 

I like that analogy and the visual is comical.  May have to put out some sugar cubes and water on the driveway, pull up a chair by the window, and watch the show some evening!

[maligned]

We'd need 2 extra weigh-in points IF the IHSAA considers it one long spread out tournament.  Otherwise, based on some of the scenerios listed, it could take up to 6 extra weigh-in points for the 3 levels of multiple school events.  (or the IHSAA could just make everyone drop 3 tournaments)

 

I posted this yesterday...I'll try again.  Multiple classes. Multiple phases on logical dates. Full match schedules for all without extra weigh-ins needed.  Three Duals champions crowned:

 

Why can't this event be an all-inclusive event carried out in phases through the season with no unfair scheduling exemptions?  For example:

 

Phase 1: Second weekend of December

A. Three classes

B. All schools invited

C. Each class has 16 super duals of 6 or 7 teams to determine Phase 1 Champions (pools if necessary with 7 teams, format would be easy).

D. Pre-determined hosts

E. Weigh-in rules and weight loss plans apply

 

(Thus, everyone is entered in the tournament, and everyone gets a pre-planned super dual on the same weekend.)

 

Phase 2: Mid-week between second and third weekends of December (immediately following Phase 1)

A. Round of 16 dual (one dual)

B. Everyone in state has dual scheduled for same day (and count toward scheduling number)

C. Champion of a given Phase 1 hosts champion of another given Phase 1

D. All other placements of same Phase 1 location host their counterparts from the opposite Phase 1 location (i.e. all schools from one location pre-plan to host an unknown opponent...opposite location pre-plans to visit unknown location...first place hosts first place, second hosts second, etc.)

E. Weigh-ins count toward state minimums and weight-loss plans must be honored as with any scheduled dual

 

Finals: First weekend of January

A. Final 8 from each of three classes meet at 3 different locations

B. 2 pools of 4 teams wrestle round-robin to determine championship match contenders

C. Championship matches wrestled at night for maximum attendance of wrestling community

D. All events scheduled for first weekend of January have pre-planned alternate host in the event host school qualifies for Duals Finals

E. No scheduling exemption given to qualifying schools (all schools STRONGLY urged to be a part of some event this weekend with the understanding that this weekend will be flexible for allowing teams to pull out of events for state finals; normal events recommended to be 6-team super duals with only a simple contingency plan needed in case of pull-outs)

F. Weigh-in count and weight loss plans still must be followed as normal

 

(Pool competition would allow Duals Finalists to still receive plenty of matches despite no scheduling exemption)

[AJ]

What is going to be the purpose of this event? 

 

1. Is the purpose to get something started that maybe/possibly/hopefully the IHSAA will take over in the future?

If this is the purpose then we need to model it after the IHSAA tournaments in other sports with all-in and no seeding. 

 

2. Is the purpose just to have a meet where teams come and get a big trophy presented by the IHSWCA and you can be called their champion?

If this is the purpose we can invite teams however we want, via Genius Ratings, last year's individual state series results, by committee, etc.

 

My understanding is #1 is the answer, but I may be wrong.

 

There is a third option.  To show the IHSAA that there is a profit to made with a Team tournament.  I think the Team Tournament can be tweaked over time to go from an invite to an all in scenario.  But it will take a few years of having a successful tournament before the IHSAA even consideres taking it over.  So option 3 would be to just get a tournament going and be willing to change and adapt to make it better each year.

[bharmon01]

I think Rex hit the nail on the head. Our new President asked me last Friday at the Spring Clinic what I thought about this. My answer was almost the same as Rex after having delt with the IHSAA as an IHSWCA officer. I said they gave it to us to make us feel better, like they were really doing something for us. The bottom line is they wanted it gone (Blake and Bobby) and think the IHSWCA will fail in trying to run it.

Who is going to run it? What venues? Officials? Table workers? Set up and tear down?

Already we can't agree on it - if its not class some people will be mad, if its not all in some people will be mad, if its invite some people will be mad.

The IHSAA said they would grant a waiver like the Basketball Hall of Fame. I don't think they will give multiple weigh-in, multiple dat waivers.

Why are they willing to let us do this, but told us not to give out trophies this year for the Individual tournament? I don't trust them.

Why is it now ok to have 2 champions now? That was an argument against giving a trophy for individual state because Blake said there was only 1 state champion.

I'll answer it - because they think it will fail and just fade away. I hope the IHSWCA can prove them wrong.

[KarlHungus]

I think Rex hit the nail on the head. Our new President asked me last Friday at the Spring Clinic what I thought about this. My answer was almost the same as Rex after having delt with the IHSAA as an IHSWCA officer. I said they gave it to us to make us feel better, like they were really doing something for us. The bottom line is they wanted it gone (Blake and Bobby) and think the IHSWCA will fail in trying to run it.

Who is going to run it? What venues? Officials? Table workers? Set up and tear down?

Already we can't agree on it - if its not class some people will be mad, if its not all in some people will be mad, if its invite some people will be mad.

The IHSAA said they would grant a waiver like the Basketball Hall of Fame. I don't think they will give multiple weigh-in, multiple dat waivers.

Why are they willing to let us do this, but told us not to give out trophies this year for the Individual tournament? I don't trust them.

Why is it now ok to have 2 champions now? That was an argument against giving a trophy for individual state because Blake said there was only 1 state champion.

I'll answer it - because they think it will fail and just fade away. I hope the IHSWCA can prove them wrong.

 

Excellent post coach.  That is why I think if the IHSWCA attempts to take this tournament on, it needs to be all in, effeciently run, and a money maker.  It's only 22 months away.

[ENoblewrestling]

Here is a set up that would get the entire tournament done with minimal "big" events.  The biggest hurdle would be the IHSAA allowing us to spread the tournament out over three-four events, instead of just one big one.

 

Tournament would be 4 classes 77, and 78 teams per class.

Each classes tournament would go as follows:

 

Round 1- 32 sites, two or three teams per site (77 teams would be 13 sites with three teams, 19 with two.  78 teams would be 14 sites with three teams, 18 with two.)

Round 1 could be done on a week night in December.  It would either be a single dual, or two duals on the evening.  That would take you to 32 teams.

 

Round 2-  32 remaining teams wrestle a single dual, that takes s to 16 teams

 

Round 3- 16 teams wrestle a dual that takes us to the finals 8

 

Round 4- Final 8 wrestle a similar event to what we have now.

 

This style would get allow us to spread the tournament out.  It would allow for minimal problems for A.D.'s  your essentially adding three duals.  You could keep cost low, and all teams could be involved.  You could easily drop a round in this format to shorten the event by one week if need be.  It would also bring back the popularity of week night duals.

[GrecoCoach]

The IHSAA gave it away because they don't want to deal with it anymore.  It was still making money (not as much as it used to, but still a lot more than most other sports).  Also, it's been stated that they don't want other sports asking to have 2 state tournaments like us.  

 

What makes us think that they'll ever want to take it back?

 

For those that think "if it makes a ton of money then of course the IHSAA will want it back," how is the coaches association supposed to expect to make tons of money when all the other teams not wrestling in it have their own tournaments that same weekend?  To make a huge profit, the finals would have to be isolated to try to encourage all the other teams to attend it.  I don't think that can possibly happen during the middle of the season unless the IHSAA mandates it.

 

I say we, as a coaches association, completely ignore what the IHSAA wants/thinks about something they gave away.  We should just focus on what we want to accomplish with it, which is to determine which school is the best dual meet team in the state.  Whatever format does that best is what we should do.  (and it will make some extra money for the coaches association to use however we feel it is best for our own sport)

[KarlHungus]

The IHSAA gave it away because they don't want to deal with it anymore.  It was still making money (not as much as it used to, but still a lot more than most other sports).  Also, it's been stated that they don't want other sports asking to have 2 state tournaments like us. 

 

What makes us think that they'll ever want to take it back?

 

For those that think "if it makes a ton of money then of course the IHSAA will want it back," how is the coaches association supposed to expect to make tons of money when all the other teams not wrestling in it have their own tournaments that same weekend?  To make a huge profit, the finals would have to be isolated to try to encourage all the other teams to attend it.  I don't think that can possibly happen during the middle of the season unless the IHSAA mandates it.

 

I say we, as a coaches association, completely ignore what the IHSAA wants/thinks about something they gave away.  We should just focus on what we want to accomplish with it, which is to determine which school is the best dual meet team in the state.  Whatever format does that best is what we should do.  (and it will make some extra money for the coaches association to use however we feel it is best for our own sport)

 

If there is no hope the IHSAA ever recognizing a dual meet champ, I am not sure the tournament has any chance of gathering widespread support.

[Smooth34]

First Monday after Xmas Break - Regionals

 

Bad idea.

 

Let's take this year for example.  Al Smith was somewhere around 28-29 or 29-30...correct?  That tournament can be a meat grinder.  Some kids get 6-7-8 matches. 

 

So the kids are then expected to turn around and be on weight in a few days when they come back to school (taking into consideration New Years that weekend as well)?

[Darrick Snyder]

I could not be more disappointed that the IHSAA is doing away with Team State after next year.  I have made my thoughts very clear to everyone on the board.  I think this is a HUGE step backwards for our sport.  

 

As long as I am at Mishawaka, we will attempt to compete in whatever version of a Team State the IHSWCA comes up.  Just stinks that it will not declare the true state champions - no rings, no parade, none of the joy that should come from being the best team in the state.  If the Al Smith Classic needs to be moved up a few days or a week to make the Team State more doable, I would work to make that happen.  It should not be an issue.  My athletic department will have a hard time running the Al Smith Classic if my staff, wrestlers, and I are at Team State:)

 

It saddens me that the true state champions will shortly be determined by my few best kids against everyone elses top few kids.  Doesn't get me all that excited to imagine celebrating with my 5 studs and two coaches that are allowed on the floor.  Not looking forward to rooting for the Cathedral kid to beat the Perry kid so we can win state.  It is so stupid.  Does not compare to competing in a dual meet where my TEAM determines whether or not we win a state tournament.  All the coaches and the entire team right there.  It is unbelievable.  I truly wish the IHSAA would go for the classed team state.  It saddens me that so many teams are losing something and will never understand how great it was.  

 

Get ready for less dual meets...that is bad for our sport....get ready to lose some great wrestlers that only competed because of the team...get ready for sectionals to be a lot less exciting...sure we will want to win, but not that big of a deal after next year.  We want to win state...we can lose at every single level of the tournaemnt series and still win state because we have a few studs ...sooooo stupid...

 

I am not sure on my thoughts on the number of classes there should be at the IHSWCA Team State, but it absolutely should be classed.  Hopefully, we can come up with a great format and event.  

 

Again, determining our Team State Champions at an Individual Tournament is bad for our sport.

 

Snyder

[busstogate]

I would bet one wrinkle you will have to address will be inviting in-state non-IHSAA teams to this tourney.  I, for one, might not see the tournament as a coach unless these teams were allowed to be invited.

[wildcatcountry97]

Best Idea- use the NCAA model - score it from the individuals!

 

You DO NOT NEED CLASS if you score the individual tournament b/c a team that can only field 10 kids due to school size can put in the work, hire a good coach, and still beat a team with 50 wrestlers on the roster.

 

IE: Team one is a big school, has 50 wrestlers on roster. They have 5 SQ, 1 champ 2 5ths. Tiny school only has 10 wrestlers on roster. 5 SQ. 2 Champs 2 3rd,  and a 4th. Thus, small schools can compete with the large schools - NO NEED TO CLASS. And...it's fair b/c all individual wrestlers have the same opportunity to advance through the tournament.

[NickS]

In my opinion, in order for this IHSWCA dual tourney to work from the get go, we need to start small. Just by reading through this thread, it looks like we aren't going to have many weeks open out of the season to run this thing. I'm not sure we'll have the organization and manpower to run an all-inclusive tournament right now, especially in just one week. Be patient, start small the 1st year, and build from there.

 

This is what I propose for the 1st year.

 

A 16 team invite on a Saturday, in mid-January. I know there might be some conference tournaments going on. But I do think this can be worked around if the invitees are given enough time to prepare.

 

This is how I would go about which teams will earn those invites.

 

Count all the returning team points earned throughout the entire State Tournament, sectionals thru state. (I'm actually in the process of looking at the returning placement points just to see what it would look like for this coming year.) To make it so that this invite tourney wouldn't be dominated by big school teams. Split up all schools into 4 classes: 4A, 3A, 2A, 1A, with the top 4 scoring teams from each class being invited to this tournament. If a team happens to decline the invitation, invite the next team down for that class.

 

Seed the tournament by those returning team points, 1 thru 16, with 4 teams going to 4 mini-brackets in the morning session. In each mini-bracket, the winners of the semi's will face off in their mini-final, while the losers will wrestle for mini-3rd (yes, I love using the word mini.)

 

In the afternoon session, You'll have the mini-1sts going against eachother, in the same format, as well as the mini-2nds and mini-3rds and mini-4ths, you get the picture.

 

In other words, I'd run this tournament similar to how The Clash is ran. Every team gets 4 matches in. So it wouldn't be like the weaker teams would get hammerd in their first match and would be one and done. They'd get 4 good matches in and hopefully it'd be a good experience. With the better teams wrestling 4 matches as well, with 1 being crowned champion and having bragging rights for a  year.

 

If this is a success, which I don't see why not, then do it again for a 2nd year. Ask the coaches what they thought of the tourney and what could be done to improve it, same with the fans. I do believe this would leave just enough taste in everyone's mouth to clamor for more. Like I said start small and I can't emphasize enough to be patient. Don't rush to an all-inclusive tournament. We aren't ready for that just yet, I think.

[Smooth34]

Best Idea- use the NCAA model - score it from the individuals!

 

You DO NOT NEED CLASS if you score the individual tournament b/c a team that can only field 10 kids due to school size can put in the work, hire a good coach, and still beat a team with 50 wrestlers on the roster.

 

IE: Team one is a big school, has 50 wrestlers on roster. They have 5 SQ, 1 champ 2 5ths. Tiny school only has 10 wrestlers on roster. 5 SQ. 2 Champs 2 3rd,  and a 4th. Thus, small schools can compete with the large schools - NO NEED TO CLASS. And...it's fair b/c all individual wrestlers have the same opportunity to advance through the tournament.

 

If this is how the Team State Champion is going to be determined, there absolutely has to be wrestlebacks, to ensure the best kids are getting to state.  Also, take the 4th place regional placer away from semi-state and add wrestlebacks. 

[Smooth34]

Count all the returning team points earned throughout the entire State Tournament, sectionals thru state.

 

I would hate this idea.  What happens if you have a stud that might have been a Semi-State Qualifier or State Qualifier, but couldn't crack the lineup the previous year?  Probably a small percentage of guys

 

How about a team that graduates a lot of seniors, but has really good underclassmen?

 

I would much rather have the Genius Rankings or some other formula decide.  At least then you would be using the current seasons results. 

[GrecoCoach]

An "all-in" format would be ideal, but not realistic (at least at first) and a whole lot of volunteer work for a few people to coordinate it all.

 

If we want to get the ADs' support, then schools need to be able to schedule it before the season starts.  An invitation format makes this possible.

 

Smooth34 - Yes, a couple of good teams might get left out based on how it's determined, but most will be correct.  If it's based objectively, then coaches might complain, but they'll understand why their team wasn't invited for one year.

 

wcs145 - I really like your idea and think many coaches would get behind the event, especially the fact that teams won't be "one and done".  More coaches will appreciate that.  I'd suggest a minor change that instead of including 4 classes in one tournament, that we set up 2 or 3 tournaments like it seperated by class.  Surely there are 3 fieldhouses across the state that can hold 8 mats to accomodate the 16 teams at each location.  This would include the top 15% of teams.

 

Invitations could be based on...

1.  Previous year's individual results

2. Previous year's team results (anyone who can figure out an accurate way to do this deserves a wahoo)

3. Regional Rep voting (throwing it out there as a possibility)

4. Committee (again, just throwing it out there)

5. Petitions (teams ask to be invited then evaluated based on above criteria)

 

Invite the top 16 (based on whatever objectives happen) in each class after the season is over so they can schedule it for the next season.  If any of those teams decline the invitation, then start going down the list until the event is full.

 

It would be best to schedule this 3 weeks before sectionals to avoid probably all conference meets.  Tournaments that are already on that date can either move their tournament date or be flexible for teams that get invited.  The good news with this plan is that everyone will know about 6 months in advance.

[charger.dad]

I could not be more disappointed that the IHSAA is doing away with Team State after next year.  I have made my thoughts very clear to everyone on the board.  I think this is a HUGE step backwards for our sport.  

 

As long as I am at Mishawaka, we will attempt to compete in whatever version of a Team State the IHSWCA comes up.  Just stinks that it will not declare the true state champions - no rings, no parade, none of the joy that should come from being the best team in the state.  If the Al Smith Classic needs to be moved up a few days or a week to make the Team State more doable, I would work to make that happen.  It should not be an issue.  My athletic department will have a hard time running the Al Smith Classic if my staff, wrestlers, and I are at Team State:)

 

It saddens me that the true state champions will shortly be determined by my few best kids against everyone elses top few kids.  Doesn't get me all that excited to imagine celebrating with my 5 studs and two coaches that are allowed on the floor.  Not looking forward to rooting for the Cathedral kid to beat the Perry kid so we can win state.  It is so stupid.  Does not compare to competing in a dual meet where my TEAM determines whether or not we win a state tournament.  All the coaches and the entire team right there.  It is unbelievable.  I truly wish the IHSAA would go for the classed team state.  It saddens me that so many teams are losing something and will never understand how great it was.  

 

Get ready for less dual meets...that is bad for our sport....get ready to lose some great wrestlers that only competed because of the team...get ready for sectionals to be a lot less exciting...sure we will want to win, but not that big of a deal after next year.  We want to win state...we can lose at every single level of the tournaemnt series and still win state because we have a few studs ...sooooo stupid...

 

I am not sure on my thoughts on the number of classes there should be at the IHSWCA Team State, but it absolutely should be classed.  Hopefully, we can come up with a great format and event.  

 

Again, determining our Team State Champions at an Individual Tournament is bad for our sport.

 

Snyder

 

 

right on the mark.......amen!

 

[KarlHungus]

An "all-in" format would be ideal, but not realistic (at least at first) and a whole lot of volunteer work for a few people to coordinate it all.

 

 

Is there a transition plan/timetable to make this an ideal, all in tournament?