Galagore Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, SIACfan said: I have never tried to claim that small schools are on equal footing as large schools. In fact I have tried to explain the exact opposite. To think a school "A" with 100 students can field 14 wrestlers that can stack up against the 14 wrestlers from school "B" with 1,000 students is nonsensical. But it is logical that for every 10 state qualifiers that school "B" produces, school "A" should be able to produce 1. The problem is that it is hard for you small school guys to accept that on an individual basis, you should only have 1/10th the individual success of a school 10 times your size. Now the reality is some schools way out perform their numbers. But that is mostly the result of coaching, community support for the sport & proximity to these elite wrestling clubs. Once again, I am not against classing wrestling. I am merely trying to explain why it is logical & should be expected (on an individual basis) that the majority of qualifiers, placers & champs come from the majority of the student population. Now can classing wrestling help grow the sport & develop strong wrestling tradition at more small schools? Perhaps, but it is also possible that the same few small schools with an already strong tradition will simply dominate, & not much will change in the overall growth of the sport in our state. I was not replying to you. My perspective does not have as much to do with growing the sport. That comes through other means and avenues. My perspective is about doing what is right. Students from small schools are in a completely different world than students from large schools and that should be accounted for in the state series for our individual sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 2 minutes ago, Galagore said: If you think allowing students to decide whether or not they should pay attention in class is dangerous, then my guess is you and I are not going to have a productive conversation. If you think that is analogous to asking them what they think about competing in a single-class system vs a multi-class system, then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 minute ago, Silence Dogood said: If you think that is analogous to asking them what they think about competing in a single-class system vs a multi-class system, then... Good deal. Then we can agree to disagree and let those on the fence look over the arguments presented and draw their own conclusions. AnonymousLeprechaun0125 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueandgold Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, Brandon Sandefur said: blueandgold I respect your enthusiasm but I do disagree and think equity is code for equality of outcome not opportunity. I am very much against equality of outcome but very supportive of opportunity. I don't think classing would eliminate our lack of parity throughout the state in fact I think it would further it by eliminating competition. There seems to be a widespread belief that if we class the small schools would get better. I don't believe that's the case without community support, great coaches and financial support. I do concede that Indiana has been much more competitive nationally and even internationally with a lot of ticket rounders that are very tough. Y2CJ41 in the spirit of debate if we had single class and 32 state qualifiers would that level the playing field? Essentially the ticket round is 1st round of semi state and guys in semis go for 1st and 3rd just like now and quarters losers go by how the guy they lost to advances. I understand, and I respect your perspective. I respect both of yours as well @SIACfan and @M109R. I hope my comments don’t seem personal or rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 2 hours ago, Galagore said: I was not replying to you. My perspective does not have as much to do with growing the sport. That comes through other means and avenues. My perspective is about doing what is right. Students from small schools are in a completely different world than students from large schools and that should be accounted for in the state series for our individual sports. I quoted you because of the statement: "Thor said it best - small schools and small school wrestlers aren't even playing the same game as large schools." While I agree that small schools are not playing the same game, I don't agree with the individual part of it. What advantage does a large school individual have over one from a small school? Practice partner? For the most part the individuals that are qualifying for and placing at state are not doing so by only wrestling during the HS season. Most of the wrestlers that advance that far in the State tournament are doing so because they have been training outside of the HS season. And many probably have been doing so before they even got to HS. Their HS practice partner is not what is holding them back. As I have said many times now the percentage of qualifiers, placers & champs from small schools closely resembles the percentage of small school enrollment. This is what should be expected. This doesn't mean that class wrestling is a bad idea, but it does illustrate that the small school individual is not at some massive disadvantage. The small school team is what needs class wrestling, not the individuals. Edited January 9 by SIACfan JStits, Barn Burner, Observing and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahap88 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 2 hours ago, SIACfan said: The small school team is what needs class wrestling, not the individuals Correct answer. End thread. Barn Burner and HWTDAD 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 2 hours ago, SIACfan said: I quoted you because of the statement: "Thor said it best - small schools and small school wrestlers aren't even playing the same game as large schools." While I agree that small schools are not playing the same game, I don't agree with the individual part of it. What advantage does a large school individual have over one from a small school? Practice partner? For the most part the individuals that are qualifying for and placing at state are not doing so by only wrestling during the HS season. Most of the wrestlers that advance that far in the State tournament are doing so because they have been training outside of the HS season. And many probably have been doing so before they even got to HS. Their HS practice partner is not what is holding them back. As I have said many times now the percentage of qualifiers, placers & champs from small schools closely resembles the percentage of small school enrollment. This is what should be expected. This doesn't mean that class wrestling is a bad idea, but it does illustrate that the small school individual is not at some massive disadvantage. The small school team is what needs class wrestling, not the individuals. Small school teams are comprised of individuals who wrestle in a small school environment. It is very difficult to separate the two. Practice partners are one example of the major difference. Not just quality but quantity. At a small school, your appropriately sized practice partner goes down and there is a good chance that you are out of options in or around your weight class for a partner. Edited January 9 by Galagore nkraus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 On 1/8/2024 at 8:57 AM, Y2CJ41 said: So why would he transfer? Why not just work hard and be a stud? That seems odd that if you work hard you'll be a champ no matter the school you come from. What 1A and 2A teams from Indiana are going to Ironman , Brecksville and the Carnahan ? There are dozens of reasons top tier studs change schools. JStits and Barn Burner 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 On 1/8/2024 at 10:16 AM, Y2CJ41 said: He didn't win a state title as an 8th grader. How many times are you going to keep moving the goalposts? Never said he did . My point was that 90% of kids good enough to win a state title have been wrestling since a very young age . You better than most should know this , that's why when they introduce a finalist at state or say the Al Smith . They say he's a 9 time ISWA Folkstyle state champion . That dude was winning titles at 7-9 years old . It really wouldn't matter what high school he goes to .IMO Jeffrey Huyvaert will be a multiple Indiana state champion . Do you think he got that good by going to New Prairie ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Wrestling is stupid. AnonymousLeprechaun0125 and jonah7474 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFleshman Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Those that have never had the struggles of small school environment will never understand. If we have class wrestling they don't have the little guys to beat up on. They have to eliminate each other instead. Galagore, blueandgold and Thor 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 13 hours ago, M109R said: What 1A and 2A teams from Indiana are going to Ironman , Brecksville and the Carnahan ? There are dozens of reasons top tier studs change schools. That is a team issue not an individual issue. And class wrestling is not going to help/stop that stuff from happening. Edited January 10 by SIACfan Barn Burner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 11 hours ago, CFleshman said: Those that have never had the struggles of small school environment will never understand. If we have class wrestling they don't have the little guys to beat up on. They have to eliminate each other instead. This sounds like a coach who is talking about the struggles he faces fielding a competitive team at a small school. I have & most everyone admits that small school teams are at a huge disadvantage. But those few elite athletes that come through a small school who choose wrestling as their sport of choice won't have any trouble getting the development & experience they need if they truly want it. The numbers that Y2 has provided show that small school individuals are performing at a rate that matches the enrollment figures pretty closely. According to Y2's numbers of small school enrollment percentage (based on 2 classes with outliers removed): -Small schools should average 49 State Qualifiers per year and that is exactly what they did averaged between 2008-2021 -Small schools should average 24 State Placers per year and they actually averaged 20 per year between 2011-2021 -Small schools should average 3 State Champs per year and they actually averaged 2 per year again between 2011-2021 I'm not sure why he provides qualifier numbers beginning in 2008 but only starting in 2011 for placers & champs. But those numbers show that the amount of qualifiers from small schools is exactly where it should be. The placers & champs do fall off the expected values slightly but not by much. This is extremely good evidence that the small school individual is not at some huge disadvantage in the State tournament. Barn Burner and Silence Dogood 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatTime Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Exposure that big tourneys bring is a big reason for families to transfer to schools that have national schedules. Most of the top tier kids have been wrestling at national events all the way up to their freshmen year. If there are schools that offer the option for them to continue to wrestle national events against other great highschool talent, why would we not expect families to consider transferring? What events are college recruits paying attention to? I am of an opinion that national rankings do matter for college recruiting and the only way to garner this to wrestle national events. If rankings can change based on Iron Man, then it seems that it is a tournament that matters. I wonder if more high school programs could incorporate a national event if that would entice families to remain in their local school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julio Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Most college coaches recruit based on what an athlete does in the summer and at National events. The high school season has some merit but it is for those that are either in state recruits or border line DI prospects. Just a little insight on this, as I am related to a DI head coach and this is what I have been told by other DI coaches. Colleges want to see what you can do against nationally opponents, because at the college level that is who you will be wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 22 minutes ago, MatTime said: Exposure that big tourneys bring is a big reason for families to transfer to schools that have national schedules. Most of the top tier kids have been wrestling at national events all the way up to their freshmen year. If there are schools that offer the option for them to continue to wrestle national events against other great highschool talent, why would we not expect families to consider transferring? What events are college recruits paying attention to? I am of an opinion that national rankings do matter for college recruiting and the only way to garner this to wrestle national events. If rankings can change based on Iron Man, then it seems that it is a tournament that matters. I wonder if more high school programs could incorporate a national event if that would entice families to remain in their local school? What you are saying has merit, but this is a small school team problem not an individual problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueandgold Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 I ask one question about class wrestling based on the fact that I’m moving out of state to Illinois and because I’ve been on the receiving end of a beating by a 1A team from a state that has been historically better than ours, and it got trolls like @M109R and everyone else in in their feelings. “How does class wrestling help kids? Omg. I like one state champion.” This thread being five pages long is crazy lol. Class wrestling or no class wrestling, Indiana still needs to find a way to catch up to other states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 56 minutes ago, MatTime said: Exposure that big tourneys bring is a big reason for families to transfer to schools that have national schedules. Most of the top tier kids have been wrestling at national events all the way up to their freshmen year. If there are schools that offer the option for them to continue to wrestle national events against other great highschool talent, why would we not expect families to consider transferring? What events are college recruits paying attention to? I am of an opinion that national rankings do matter for college recruiting and the only way to garner this to wrestle national events. If rankings can change based on Iron Man, then it seems that it is a tournament that matters. I wonder if more high school programs could incorporate a national event if that would entice families to remain in their local school? Small schools could easily enter their top wrestlers into the Ironman. That what a lot of Ohio Schools do, they enter their 1or 2 of top state level guys, and leave the rest at home. Why not! I think the Ironman would do that. Most teams in Ironman are just partial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 10 minutes ago, blueandgold said: I.” This thread being five pages long is crazy lol. Class wrestling or no class wrestling, Indiana still needs to find a way to catch up to other states. This is nothing, go back and look at prior years and you'll find 100s of pages of discussion on class wrestling. Not much new being discussed here. If you want to find some older posts, Click on Galagore's old post to find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 26 minutes ago, blueandgold said: I ask one question about class wrestling based on the fact that I’m moving out of state to Illinois and because I’ve been on the receiving end of a beating by a 1A team from a state that has been historically better than ours, and it got trolls like @M109R and everyone else in in their feelings. “How does class wrestling help kids? Omg. I like one state champion.” This thread being five pages long is crazy lol. Class wrestling or no class wrestling, Indiana still needs to find a way to catch up to other states. Not trolling , provide facts that it will grow the sport in Indiana instead of comparing us to a neighboring state that is twice the size . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 37 minutes ago, blueandgold said: I ask one question about class wrestling based on the fact that I’m moving out of state to Illinois and because I’ve been on the receiving end of a beating by a 1A team from a state that has been historically better than ours, and it got trolls like @M109R and everyone else in in their feelings. “How does class wrestling help kids? Omg. I like one state champion.” This thread being five pages long is crazy lol. Class wrestling or no class wrestling, Indiana still needs to find a way to catch up to other states. Others can speak to this better than me, but Indiana ranks somewhere around 15th in the nation as far as producing top wrestling talent. We are the 17th most populated state, thus we are producing slightly above what should be expected. And I would bet that if you look at top talent produced per capita, Indiana would rank even higher. But more importantly, Indiana produces more wrestling talent than several states that have Class Wrestling with a larger population to pull from. To expect Indiana to produce wrestling talent near the level of Illinois when they have a strong wrestling tradition & nearly 2 times more the population of Indiana is naive. It is similar to expecting a 2A school to be able to evenly compete with a 4A school. It can happen but it is tough. Edited January 10 by SIACfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) I'll give more food for thought regarding the Indiana vs Illinois wrestling talent. How many DI, DII & DIII wrestlers are both states producing on average? If Illinois is producing twice as many that should be expected. If they are producing 3 times as much or more than maybe Indiana needs to step it up. Edited January 10 by SIACfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFleshman Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 It is absolutely true about fielding a competitive Team. Most small schools have do do it with 15 - 20 kids at most. If all sports went back to 1 class we would be hearing the same arguments from them. Center Grove football 150 kids against 35 kids fron Central Noble sounds like an even game. It's 11 versus 11 completely equal right. All the players have the same opportunities to be on a even playing field correct. Thor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueandgold Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 10 minutes ago, SIACfan said: I'll give more food for thought regarding the Indiana vs Illinois wrestling talent. How many DI, DII & DIII wrestlers are both states producing on average? If Illinois is producing twice as many that should be expected. If they are producing 3 times as much or more than maybe Indiana needs to step it up. This isn’t total wrestlers on each level, but it’s 2023 NCAA Qualifiers in Division I, and Illinois produced over four times as many which I think is an indicator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 56 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said: This is nothing, go back and look at prior years and you'll find 100s of pages of discussion on class wrestling. Not much new being discussed here. If you want to find some older posts, Click on Galagore's old post to find them. So many pages.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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