decbell1 Posted December 4, 2023 Share Posted December 4, 2023 Date: 12/04/2023 Entity: IndianaMat Type: Dual Ranking Class: 4A 1. Crown Point 2. Brownsburg 3. Center Grove 4. Perry Meridian 5. Avon 6. Penn 7. Evansville Mater Dei 8. Warren Central 9. Indianapolis Cathedral 10. Carmel View full team ranking Cricket21 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttler73 Posted December 4, 2023 Share Posted December 4, 2023 Avon Maybe 4 I think? Penn @ #6? Do we have the results of the Carmel meet with them? I don't see them beating WC, CATHEDRAL, or EMD straight up. my top 10 4A 1-Brownsburgh 2-Crown Point 3-Center Grove 4-Avon 5-Warren Central 6-Cathedral 7-EMD 8-Perry Meridian 9-Penn 10-Carmel in the mix HSE Zionsville Ben Davis I maybe off, but I think Brownsburg can beat Crown Point straight up. Be fun to see 106 CP Newell over May CP-6 BB-0 113 BB REV. pins him in the first not sure how he is ranked as high as he is but okay CP-6 BB-6 120 BB Haines gets a decision over Jendreas CP-6 BB-9 126 toss up should be a great match and looking forward to it. maybe the best match up of the dual. Hawkins can be sticky and ride Braylon is a warrior I give toss up to to CP decision. CP-9 BB-9 132 BB JAKE 6 CP-9 BB-15 138 BB ISON DECISION OVER SHEPARD. CP-9 BB-18 144 BB Parker Reynolds win by pin CP-9 BB-24 150 BB Tommy Gibbs pins Oscar Baca? CP-9 BB-30 157 BB I got Day with a decision over Griffin Van Tichelt. rankings close CP-9 BB-33 165 CP 6 Rinehart over derringer with a pin CP-15 BB-33 175 Toss up lean White CP 3 CP-18 BB-33 190 BB 6 Henry pins Austin Reading CP-18 BB-39 215 CP Will over brewer in a Major here. CP-22 BB36 285 CP Paul with a decision CP-25 BB-36 Just an opinion here I could a decision swing one way or another on some of these. but I think BB is the better all around squad. HCman, Momma2Dickmans and DogPound75 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTruth1 Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 Fishers HS crushed HSE this weekend 40-20 and lost a close 43-36 dual to #8 Roncalli. They have a dual with Carmel on Wednesday and could potentially see Franklin Community, Cathedral, and Mishawaka this weekend. Only logical to consider these guys as a contender for that final team state spot. LUBWrestler and buttler73 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgPoundRed Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 Perry number 4......why? They might not be top 10 TheTruth1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 5, 2023 Author Share Posted December 5, 2023 18 minutes ago, DawgPoundRed said: Perry number 4......why? They might not be top 10 Any particular result that makes you feel that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgPoundRed Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, decbell1 said: Any particular result that makes you feel that way? Any result since 2018 that makes you feel they are top 4? Or should I say my eyes? TheTruth1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttler73 Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 58 minutes ago, TheTruth1 said: Fishers HS crushed HSE this weekend 40-20 and lost a close 43-36 dual to #8 Roncalli. They have a dual with Carmel on Wednesday and could potentially see Franklin Community, Cathedral, and Mishawaka this weekend. Only logical to consider these guys as a contender for that final team state spot. They should be in the mix. This weekend will be important for the team races for sure. TheTruth1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 On 12/4/2023 at 2:54 PM, buttler73 said: Avon Maybe 4 I think? Penn @ #6? Do we have the results of the Carmel meet with them? I don't see them beating WC, CATHEDRAL, or EMD straight up. my top 10 4A 1-Brownsburgh 2-Crown Point 3-Center Grove 4-Avon 5-Warren Central 6-Cathedral 7-EMD 8-Perry Meridian 9-Penn 10-Carmel in the mix HSE Zionsville Ben Davis I maybe off, but I think Brownsburg can beat Crown Point straight up. Be fun to see 106 CP Newell over May CP-6 BB-0 113 BB REV. pins him in the first not sure how he is ranked as high as he is but okay CP-6 BB-6 120 BB Haines gets a decision over Jendreas CP-6 BB-9 126 toss up should be a great match and looking forward to it. maybe the best match up of the dual. Hawkins can be sticky and ride Braylon is a warrior I give toss up to to CP decision. CP-9 BB-9 132 BB JAKE 6 CP-9 BB-15 138 BB ISON DECISION OVER SHEPARD. CP-9 BB-18 144 BB Parker Reynolds win by pin CP-9 BB-24 150 BB Tommy Gibbs pins Oscar Baca? CP-9 BB-30 157 BB I got Day with a decision over Griffin Van Tichelt. rankings close CP-9 BB-33 165 CP 6 Rinehart over derringer with a pin CP-15 BB-33 175 Toss up lean White CP 3 CP-18 BB-33 190 BB 6 Henry pins Austin Reading CP-18 BB-39 215 CP Will over brewer in a Major here. CP-22 BB36 285 CP Paul with a decision CP-25 BB-36 Just an opinion here I could a decision swing one way or another on some of these. but I think BB is the better all around squad. Curious as to why you have Perry Meridian in front of Penn . Penn has more ranked wrestlers as well as higher ranked wrestlers than PM . I think after CP,BB and CG it's a toss up between the next 5 teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttler73 Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 2 hours ago, M109R said: Curious as to why you have Perry Meridian in front of Penn . Penn has more ranked wrestlers as well as higher ranked wrestlers than PM . I think after CP,BB and CG it's a toss up between the next 5 teams. Definitely not a toss up on the next 5 maybe tier B with the next 3/4 with Avon, Warren Central, Cathedral & EMD . Warren had kids miss weight I heard. PM & Penn Has a very very difficult with anyone in front of them. I don't think it is all that close except for EMD to PM & Penn and really there is Fishers, HSE, Zionsville & BD this weekend looks to have some answers to ranks. But the rankings are put together By Mike. and while he does great and has a ton of info given to him, these are his opinions. HE would be the first to tell ya he is not perfect at this. Penn may have more in the rankings. Does not mean I agree with the rankings. I think it is easier to add a kid from up north because he has a lot of relationships up north. Hard to be 100% Bias in his spot. Not like there is a Sagarin rating for wrestling. Possibly P.I.N. system maybe after a few years and enough data it may get to be more accurate. Hell Fishers maybe the 8th team after this weekend.. I am confident in my first 7...... Question Does Penn have a 106? I saw a FF on track. What was the PENN CARMEL RESULT? Last year it was some secret and nothing there this year. You would think that with both those team jostling for a spot the winner would have made sure the results were in for that match and there others. Both are huge programs I am sure the have assistants and managers and no one puts them in. h2ooutofmudpuddles and TheTruth1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGCATSontheMAT Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 I think EMD and Avon should get those last 2 spots at team state over Penn, regardless of outcome saturday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook and half Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 Penn met MD in 2014 in an epic dual. The match opened with MD's unknown 113-pound freshman, Kyle "Sweet" Luigs, breaking off a defensive pin to spot the 'Cats a 6-0 lead. Two matches later, a well-known freshman--Nick Lee--majored Penn's (Penn, Penn State. Oh, the irony) hammer and returning State runner-up. MD won three more, before Penn rattled off SEVEN consecutive wins. The match came down to the 106 pounders, MD's Will Egli and Penn's (And future Penn Stater) Drew Hildebrandt. Egli prevailed with a razor-thin victory in a colliseum environment. The intensity of the crowd, coaches, wrestlers and benches was off the chain. I have seen some incredible duals, but this one is at/near the top. Cricket21 and BIGCATSontheMAT 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 7 hours ago, buttler73 said: Definitely not a toss up on the next 5 maybe tier B with the next 3/4 with Avon, Warren Central, Cathedral & EMD . Warren had kids miss weight I heard. PM & Penn Has a very very difficult with anyone in front of them. I don't think it is all that close except for EMD to PM & Penn and really there is Fishers, HSE, Zionsville & BD this weekend looks to have some answers to ranks. But the rankings are put together By Mike. and while he does great and has a ton of info given to him, these are his opinions. HE would be the first to tell ya he is not perfect at this. Penn may have more in the rankings. Does not mean I agree with the rankings. I think it is easier to add a kid from up north because he has a lot of relationships up north. Hard to be 100% Bias in his spot. Not like there is a Sagarin rating for wrestling. Possibly P.I.N. system maybe after a few years and enough data it may get to be more accurate. Hell Fishers maybe the 8th team after this weekend.. I am confident in my first 7...... Question Does Penn have a 106? I saw a FF on track. What was the PENN CARMEL RESULT? Last year it was some secret and nothing there this year. You would think that with both those team jostling for a spot the winner would have made sure the results were in for that match and there others. Both are huge programs I am sure the have assistants and managers and no one puts them in. I agree on the Penn vs Carmel match , I don't know the score . I too can't understand why the results are not posted . Yes Penn does have a 106 . As far as the rankings , apparently Penn has some ranked wrestlers that you feel should not be ranked ? Rankings are opinions , just like you putting WC, Cathedral and EMD in front of Penn . How do you know these teams would beat Penn this year . The simple answer is that you don't , it is just your opinion/speculation . Bulldog89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, BIGCATSontheMAT said: I think EMD and Avon should get those last 2 spots at team state over Penn, regardless of outcome saturday And why is that ? Are you speculating that Avon and MD are better ? They could be but we don't know that as of now . Please provide some sort of data that supports your opinion . Edited December 6, 2023 by M109R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttler73 Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 56 minutes ago, M109R said: I agree on the Penn vs Carmel match , I don't know the score . I too can't understand why the results are not posted . Yes Penn does have a 106 . As far as the rankings , apparently Penn has some ranked wrestlers that you feel should not be ranked ? Rankings are opinions , just like you putting WC, Cathedral and EMD in front of Penn . How do you know these teams would beat Penn this year . The simple answer is that you don't , it is just your opinion/speculation . Umm okay...I said exactly that. I guess I should state for everyone I don't control High Wrestling and these are my opinions on the top 7 teams in 4A. I am not one of the Apostles please don't take what I put on a chatboard as Gospel. With that said, the next handful of teams are all on the bubble (IMO) unless something Catastrophic happens to a team in front of them. Carmel, Fishers, PENN, PM, Zionsville (IMO) I put this in Alphabetical order. I have nothing against Penn at all. I dont have ANYTHING TO BASE IF OFF OF. RECORD 1-0 The results versus Carmel are a big deal. Fishers wrestles Carmel Tonight. IF Fishers defeats Carmel and Carmel beat Penn then clearly this has bearing on team state race. Likewise the results of that dual and how points were actually scored. so I can see matches and results and scores on the other 7 teams above this group and see how the scoring went and based my rankings on that and what little wrestling I have seen over the past few years sprinkle on a bit of Bias for the kids and teams I know and Wallah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttler73 Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 7 minutes ago, M109R said: And why is that ? Are you speculating that Avon and MD are better ? They could be but we don't know that as of now . Please provide some sort of data that supports your opinion . Have Penn put their results in so that there is some Data to go off of. And I bet he made that statement because he believes it. And your all into rankings go look at the team state Rankings for 4A are rankings good or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 I'm not all into rankings , but I think Individual rankings most of the time are more accurate than team rankings . Early in the season most individual rankings are based off last years accomplishments . If your a freshman then it's probably based off middle school/national tournament success . I think early in the season , it is very hard to rank teams accurately . The number of ranked wrestlers plays a large role , but just as large are the wrestlers that are not ranked . Are all your non ranked wrestlers just outside the top 20 or are most of them way outside the top 20 . This is something most of us can't possibly know for each team ranked 3-10 . Teams like CP,BB and CG , almost their entire teams are ranked , so this doesn't apply to them . The only thing I'm looking at is Penn has 6 ranked wrestlers compared to 5 for MD , 5 for Avon and 6 for WC . Do I think Penn is better than those 3 ? No , but it also doesn't mean those 3 are better than Penn . Hopefully it will all work itself out during the season . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JORVILLE Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 (edited) On 12/4/2023 at 2:54 PM, buttler73 said: Avon Maybe 4 I think? Penn @ #6? Do we have the results of the Carmel meet with them? I don't see them beating WC, CATHEDRAL, or EMD straight up. my top 10 4A 1-Brownsburgh 2-Crown Point 3-Center Grove 4-Avon 5-Warren Central 6-Cathedral 7-EMD 8-Perry Meridian 9-Penn 10-Carmel in the mix HSE Zionsville Ben Davis I maybe off, but I think Brownsburg can beat Crown Point straight up. Be fun to see 106 CP Newell over May CP-6 BB-0 113 BB REV. pins him in the first not sure how he is ranked as high as he is but okay CP-6 BB-6 120 BB Haines gets a decision over Jendreas CP-6 BB-9 126 toss up should be a great match and looking forward to it. maybe the best match up of the dual. Hawkins can be sticky and ride Braylon is a warrior I give toss up to to CP decision. CP-9 BB-9 132 BB JAKE 6 CP-9 BB-15 138 BB ISON DECISION OVER SHEPARD. CP-9 BB-18 144 BB Parker Reynolds win by pin CP-9 BB-24 150 BB Tommy Gibbs pins Oscar Baca? CP-9 BB-30 157 BB I got Day with a decision over Griffin Van Tichelt. rankings close CP-9 BB-33 165 CP 6 Rinehart over derringer with a pin CP-15 BB-33 175 Toss up lean White CP 3 CP-18 BB-33 190 BB 6 Henry pins Austin Reading CP-18 BB-39 215 CP Will over brewer in a Major here. CP-22 BB36 285 CP Paul with a decision CP-25 BB-36 Just an opinion here I could a decision swing one way or another on some of these. but I think BB is the better all around squad. Might want to look up the Gavin Lewis results if not sure who he is . Has wrestled heavier and has beat Ohio High school state champs and took 3rd at IHPO at 123. I don’t think he gets pinned very often either . Edited December 7, 2023 by JORVILLE jshep86, buttler73 and TrueRegionFan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshep86 Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 On 12/4/2023 at 2:54 PM, buttler73 said: Avon Maybe 4 I think? Penn @ #6? Do we have the results of the Carmel meet with them? I don't see them beating WC, CATHEDRAL, or EMD straight up. my top 10 4A 1-Brownsburgh 2-Crown Point 3-Center Grove 4-Avon 5-Warren Central 6-Cathedral 7-EMD 8-Perry Meridian 9-Penn 10-Carmel in the mix HSE Zionsville Ben Davis I maybe off, but I think Brownsburg can beat Crown Point straight up. Be fun to see 106 CP Newell over May CP-6 BB-0 113 BB REV. pins him in the first not sure how he is ranked as high as he is but okay CP-6 BB-6 120 BB Haines gets a decision over Jendreas CP-6 BB-9 126 toss up should be a great match and looking forward to it. maybe the best match up of the dual. Hawkins can be sticky and ride Braylon is a warrior I give toss up to to CP decision. CP-9 BB-9 132 BB JAKE 6 CP-9 BB-15 138 BB ISON DECISION OVER SHEPARD. CP-9 BB-18 144 BB Parker Reynolds win by pin CP-9 BB-24 150 BB Tommy Gibbs pins Oscar Baca? CP-9 BB-30 157 BB I got Day with a decision over Griffin Van Tichelt. rankings close CP-9 BB-33 165 CP 6 Rinehart over derringer with a pin CP-15 BB-33 175 Toss up lean White CP 3 CP-18 BB-33 190 BB 6 Henry pins Austin Reading CP-18 BB-39 215 CP Will over brewer in a Major here. CP-22 BB36 285 CP Paul with a decision CP-25 BB-36 Just an opinion here I could a decision swing one way or another on some of these. but I think BB is the better all around squad. You def need to look up Lewis, im not sure how one could even think he's ranked to high. I think he is underranked but will soon all play out! Pin in 1st ain't happening. Henry is an animal and I love that kid but I wouldn't underestimate reading either. buttler73 and TrueRegionFan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttler73 Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 1 hour ago, JORVILLE said: Might want to look up the Gavin Lewis results if not sure who he is . Has wrestled heavier and has beat Ohio High school state champs and took 3rd at IHPO at 123. I don’t think he gets pinned very often either . I have, He does not and I think he is a force and will most likely place high on the podium at state. But I IMO Rev and Nate Rioux at 113 are on a different planet wrestling vs. the field @113. And While it may not end in a pin in the first I think Rev dominates the entire match regardless of the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshep86 Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 9 minutes ago, buttler73 said: I have, He does not and I think he is a force and will most likely place high on the podium at state. But I IMO Rev and Nate Rioux at 113 are on a different planet wrestling vs. the field @113. And While it may not end in a pin in the first I think Rev dominates the entire match regardless of the score. Time will tell TrueRegionFan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JORVILLE Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 1 hour ago, buttler73 said: I have, He does not and I think he is a force and will most likely place high on the podium at state. But I IMO Rev and Nate Rioux at 113 are on a different planet wrestling vs. the field @113. And While it may not end in a pin in the first I think Rev dominates the entire match regardless of the score. I respect everyone’s picks or opinions . I’m interested to see how he does at the lower weight in a big tournament like this weekend . I can speak from our experiences and going lower didn’t help the way my son felt energy wise at Super 32 compared to weight above . I think Rev and Nate both front runners and tough. We could see some match ups this weekend . Bulldog89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Schroeder Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 On 12/5/2023 at 11:45 PM, hook and half said: Penn met MD in 2014 in an epic dual. The match opened with MD's unknown 113-pound freshman, Kyle "Sweet" Luigs, breaking off a defensive pin to spot the 'Cats a 6-0 lead. Two matches later, a well-known freshman--Nick Lee--majored Penn's (Penn, Penn State. Oh, the irony) hammer and returning State runner-up. MD won three more, before Penn rattled off SEVEN consecutive wins. The match came down to the 106 pounders, MD's Will Egli and Penn's (And future Penn Stater) Drew Hildebrandt. Egli prevailed with a razor-thin victory in a colliseum environment. The intensity of the crowd, coaches, wrestlers and benches was off the chain. I have seen some incredible duals, but this one is at/near the top. If you are referring to the team state dual, i had the privilege of officiating that dual and yes, the crowd and the entire gym was electric. There was at least one other, if not more, dual(s) going on at the same time. I know I am old school, but a great dual can still produce real electricity!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotcaught Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 12/7/2023 at 10:45 AM, jshep86 said: Time will tell Lewis proved to be right there with Dickman, neither got a takedown. The depth of CP is underrated. At 144 CP threw in Jacob Jones who is 3rd string at 144 for CP (behind Washington and Baca). After falling behind 11-0 after the 1st period, Jones outscored Parker Reynolds (The #2 in the state) 1-0, resulting in a 11-1 finish. How many schools have a 3rd string wrestler that can wrestle a whole match against the #2 guy in the state? Then at 150, CP lost Evan Cruz due to a concussion from the Al Smith and backup Kaptur Nowaczyk comes in and almost knocks off #3 in the state Tommy Gibbs. jshep86, TrueRegionFan and pjayroza 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshep86 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 5 hours ago, igotcaught said: Lewis proved to be right there with Dickman, neither got a takedown. The depth of CP is underrated. At 144 CP threw in Jacob Jones who is 3rd string at 144 for CP (behind Washington and Baca). After falling behind 11-0 after the 1st period, Jones outscored Parker Reynolds (The #2 in the state) 1-0, resulting in a 11-1 finish. How many schools have a 3rd string wrestler that can wrestle a whole match against the #2 guy in the state? Then at 150, CP lost Evan Cruz due to a concussion from the Al Smith and backup Kaptur Nowaczyk comes in and almost knocks off #3 in the state Tommy Gibbs. I've said from day 1 gav will be in contention to win it! Gav has great hips and mat awareness! He will be ready come feb! I agree on depth too! What a blessing to have that depth at a big event like team state! Everyone contributed amazingly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWTDAD Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 7 hours ago, igotcaught said: Lewis proved to be right there with Dickman, neither got a takedown. The depth of CP is underrated. At 144 CP threw in Jacob Jones who is 3rd string at 144 for CP (behind Washington and Baca). After falling behind 11-0 after the 1st period, Jones outscored Parker Reynolds (The #2 in the state) 1-0, resulting in a 11-1 finish. How many schools have a 3rd string wrestler that can wrestle a whole match against the #2 guy in the state? Then at 150, CP lost Evan Cruz due to a concussion from the Al Smith and backup Kaptur Nowaczyk comes in and almost knocks off #3 in the state Tommy Gibbs. To be fair if that kid didn’t keep bleeding and getting a rest I think Parker would have finished the tech in the 2nd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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