Article: IHSAA Announces State Tournament Realignment

[BrodyHardcastle]

6 hours ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

I’m excited about the changes.  What can I say I love green and gold or yellow. I get both.  My former Capo and his Zebra’s will not be missed: no offense.  Get them up outta here.  Now all I have to contend with is Jay County and Delta.  We lost some guys so I wasn’t very optimistic until this was announced.  I’m not saying we are winning Semi-State: but with Rochester gone we should be a wrung higher on the ladder. 

Took a hit with Veazy and O’ campo gone. Still got Tun, Lapsley (grad?), Smith, and Russel right? Anyone else you think will make some gains this year? 

[ghughes1974]

Does anyone know who specifically was on the State Tournament realignment committee?  I'm sure Mr. Faulkens but not sure who else.  Given Franklin Community was moved out of Mooresville, maybe Jim Tonte was on the committee too?  Not sure if coaches are on the committee.  If anyone knows specifically, thanks for responding.

 

Many of the changes don't make sense to me.  But this post is going to focus on one. 

 

Here's facts regarding changes to Southport and Arsenal Tech sectionals:

 

The latest sectional alignment swapped 4 teams from the former Arsenal Tech sectional with 4 teams from the former Southport sectional. 

 

Here's what participation rates look like pre and post:

I looked at participation (defined as total wrestlers competing at sectional) from last season and noticed that the four schools moved from Southport to Arsenal Tech all have a low participation rate and the schools moved from Arsenal Tech to Southport all have high participation rate.  There was previously a divide in participation rates between the two sectionals.  However, the changes to the sectionals create a much more significant divide than what existed before.      

	Sectional Participants 2023
Teams in Old Southport Sectional	83
Teams in Old Arsenal Tech Sectional	110
Participant Divide	27
Teams in New Southport Sectional	120
Teams in New Arsenal Tech Sectional	73
Participant Divide	47

 

Low participation results in forfeited matches and wrestlers advancing due to forfeits and not competition.  If last year’s wrestlers competed in the new Arsenal Tech sectional, there would have been only 17 total matches to determine advancement to regionals.  With only 73 total participants in this new sectional and 56 advancing, that means that as many as 39 wrestlers (70% of advancing participants) will qualify for regionals without wrestling a single match. 

 

Also, in the new format, some weight classes would advance forfeits to regionals from Arsenal Tech.  For example, last year’s wrestlers now in the Arsenal Tech sectional would advance forfeits in both the 106 and 285 weight classes.  Forfeits advance to regionals instead of wrestlers!  This means two wrestlers qualify for  semi state without having to wrestle a match at regionals!  

 

Will better wrestlers advance?

I looked at the regional qualifiers from each of these sectionals last year and put them in the new sectionals.  The change in sectionals would mean that 80 of the 112 total qualifiers (71%) would now be grouped together in the same sectional. 

	Regional Qualifiers 2023
Teams in New Southport Sectional	80
Teams in New Arsenal Tech Sectional	32
Qualifier Divide	48

 

With 56 wrestlers advancing from each sectional, this means that the new format would eliminate 24 of 80 of last year’s regional qualifiers at the sectional level because they are now all in the same sectional at Southport.  These 24 more skilled wrestlers would be eliminated early, thereby losing a week of their season and the experience/accomplishment of advancing to and competing at regionals. 

 

What is the impact to drive time?

The change in these sectionals creates longer drive time for schools overall, and significant greater mileage for schools moved to the new Southport sectional. According to GPS, the new proposal requires Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, North Central and Mount Vernon to collectively drive an additional 42 miles to attend sectionals.  The schools moved into Arsenal Tech sectional save only 23 miles in drive time. 

 

Are there Regional and Semi State Implications?

There are additional impacts at the regional level and Semi State level.  For example, if we look at last year’s 220 weight class at the New Castle Semi State, 6 out of 8 “blood round” wrestlers from last year would now be in the same regional.  This means that 2 wrestlers who completed in the “blood round” (one round away from making it to state) would have been eliminated at the regional level.  We are dangerously close to eliminating state caliber wrestlers at the regional level with this sectional realignment.  106 is another weight class where you will see a similar dynamic.

 

I think the current committee is making mistakes and not using data that's available.  I also think they're not listening to feedback from coaches who have good ideas.  No system is ever perfect, but there are parts of this realignment that don't make sense...at least not that I can see.  Would love to hear from the committee why they would change Southport and Arsenal Tech the way they did.

 

Coach Hughes

317-753-7786

 

[decbell1]

I sat on the committee that was present when these changes were made. 

 

My thoughts after an eye-opening day in Indianapolis:

 

-The "strength" of regionals had zero effect on decisions. 

-The IHSAA does not have any intention to "balance" the semi-states.

-Most of the "data" driving the decisions was based on the number of beating hearts entered at each weight at each sectional and attempting to shift schools to keep them as even as possible. Basically 0.0% of the input was based on advancement results from previous years. 

 

 

[maligned]

16 minutes ago, decbell1 said:

I sat on the committee that was present when these changes were made. 

 

My thoughts after an eye-opening day in Indianapolis:

 

-The "strength" of regionals had zero effect on decisions. 

-The IHSAA does not have any intention to "balance" the semi-states.

-Most of the "data" driving the decisions was based on the number of beating hearts entered at each weight at each sectional and attempting to shift schools to keep them as even as possible. Basically 0.0% of the input was based on advancement results from previous years. 

 

 

Definitely seemed like what happened. Thanks for the insight.

[casualwrestlingfan]

24 minutes ago, decbell1 said:

I sat on the committee that was present when these changes were made. 

 

My thoughts after an eye-opening day in Indianapolis:

 

-The "strength" of regionals had zero effect on decisions. 

-The IHSAA does not have any intention to "balance" the semi-states.

-Most of the "data" driving the decisions was based on the number of beating hearts entered at each weight at each sectional and attempting to shift schools to keep them as even as possible. Basically 0.0% of the input was based on advancement results from previous years. 

 

 

I'm shocked 

[Galagore]

They don't consider prior success for sectional placement in any sport. They will bump schools up in classed tournaments if the school shows consistent levels of success, but these same issues happen in every sport. In 1A football, Pioneer and LCC would be by far the top two teams in the state and would routinely meet in the first round or two of sectional about a decade or so ago.

 

Seems like the only way to have the success of a program dictate state series match-ups is if we...oh, never mind...

[Paycheck141]

I saw that Wawasse and Tippecanoe Valley were moved into the FT Wayne Semi-State wouldn't it make sense to also move Warsaw into the Fort Wayne Semi-State since they are only about a half hour from Fort Wayne? Then they aren't driving 2 hours to EC. Just a thought

[Bulldog89]

1 minute ago, Paycheck141 said:

I saw that Wawasse and Tippecanoe Valley were moved into the FT Wayne Semi-State wouldn't it make sense to also move Warsaw into the Fort Wayne Semi-State since they are only about a half hour from Fort Wayne? Then they aren't driving 2 hours to EC. Just a thought

Did Wawasee used to be in the Fort Wayne Semi??

[aoberlin]

15 minutes ago, Bulldog89 said:

Did Wawasee used to be in the Fort Wayne Semi??

Wawasee and Warsaw for sure. Wawasee use to be in the Carroll Regional. I had to wrestler Mike Atkins a few times and he was tough.

[Tommyboy]

the reason you wanna see sectional opponets is because some schools strength of schedule is weak and some schools are not due to conferences they are in . kids come in with records of 29-2 and wrestled nobody and another kid comes in 17-10 and has wrestled very tough opponets . then 29-2 guy gets great seed and is not actually better .. so you need those head to head meet ups. For that exact reason 

[ghughes1974]

On 9/1/2023 at 12:28 PM, decbell1 said:

I sat on the committee that was present when these changes were made. 

 

My thoughts after an eye-opening day in Indianapolis:

 

-The "strength" of regionals had zero effect on decisions. 

-The IHSAA does not have any intention to "balance" the semi-states.

-Most of the "data" driving the decisions was based on the number of beating hearts entered at each weight at each sectional and attempting to shift schools to keep them as even as possible. Basically 0.0% of the input was based on advancement results from previous years. 

 

 

Thanks for letting me know you were on the committee and providing information that the sectionals are aligned based on participation rate.  Did you vote on and approve the changes made between Arsenal Tech and Southport.  This change was not based on participation rate.  Take a look at this information:

 

If we put last year’s teams into the new Arsenal Tech sectional, there are 74 total wrestlers in the sectionals.  This creates a scenario where:

·       4 weight classes would have 4 or less wrestlers.  This means 16 of the 56 advancing wrestlers, 29%, would advance to regionals without having to wrestle a single match. 

·       1 of those 16 spots would be a forfeit that advances instead of a wrestler.   

·       As many as 17 additional wrestlers, another 30%, only have to wrestle one match to advance.  ~60% of wrestlers either don’t have to wrestle or only wrestle once to advance. 

·       If a forfeit moves on to Regional, a wrestler will qualify to semi state without having to wrestle at regionals.  Also, if there are weight classes with 4, there are no alternates should a wrestler drop out.

 

If we do the same thing with the Southport sectional:

·       There are now 120 wrestlers in this section.  Almost double Arsenal Tech.

·       80 of the 112 (71%) regional qualifiers from last year’s two sectionals are now in Southport.  56 wrestlers advance to regionals, so 24 of 80 of last year’s regional qualifiers would be eliminated at the Southport sectional.  24 more skilled wrestlers would lose a week of their season and the experience/accomplishment of advancing to and competing at regionals. 

 

Regional and semi state implications look negative. 

·       For example, if we look at last year’s 220 weight class at the New Castle Semi State, 6 out of 8 “blood round” wrestlers from last year would now be in the same regional.  This means that 2 wrestlers who completed in the “blood round” (one round away from making it to state) would have been eliminated at the regional level.    

 

I checked drivetime and the change in these sectionals creates longer drivetime for schools overall, with significant greater mileage for schools moved to the new Southport sectional without saving the schools moved to Arsenal Tech significant mileage.  The four schools added to Southport will literally drive by Arsenal Tech on their way to Southport. 

 

Any idea what happened?  Did the committee approve this change?

 

 

 

[SteveThePirate]

On 8/25/2023 at 11:17 AM, piscis1956 said:

The Southport sectional and Perry regional both get a lot stronger/deeper while the Arsenal Tech sectional and Pendleton regional get a lot weaker.  Don’t understand those swaps at all. 

Especially due to the fact that there are around 72 kids that will be in the Tech sectional versus 120 in the Southport sectional... So like 14ish wont make it through to regionals from the Tech sectional and around half wont make it through to the Perry regional from the Southport sectional. Makes zero sense.

[ghughes1974]

IHSAA says sectional alignment is based on participation rate.  This change creates the following divide using last year's teams.

[ghughes1974]

Last post shows what looks like a contradiction in policy.  Below is the data that shows how ridiculous the change is.  They put this many highly competitive teams all together early.   IHSAA says they don't consider competition level.  THEY SHOULD!

 

We don’t expect sectionals to be perfectly fair, but WE DO EXPECT THEY NOT BE PERFECTLY UNFAIR.

 

Regional view gets even worse. Why is IHSAA doing this to our wrestlers?

 

New Southport Sectional	2022-23 Semi State Qualifiers
Beech Grove	2
Perry Meridian	9
Roncalli	8
Southport	3
Christel House	0
Victory College Prep	0
Lawrence Central	1
Lawrence North	3
Mt Vernon (Fortville)	7
North Central	1
Total	34

 

New Arsenal Tech Sectional	2022-23 Semi State Qualifiers
Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory	1
Indpls Arsenal Technical	1
Indiana School for the Deaf	0
Indiana School for the Blind	0
Indpls Bishop Chatard	5
Indpls Cathedral	12
Indpls Cardinal Ritter	0
Indpls Crispus Attucks	0
Indpls George Washington	0
Providence Cristo Rey	1
Total	20

 

[PMHS]

We will never get equity in the state tournament series. Some Sectionals, Regionals, Semi-States will be tougher. This is inevitable. No complaints on that, impossible task. Really, in my opinion in all sports, but this one seems easy just based on the numbers. Totally confused by this decision and why it was made. It would be nice to get some answers from the powers that be. Why?

 

 

Coach Schoettle

Perry Meridian HS

[ghughes1974]

I believe reasonable equity is important.  I think of it as a scale…one side is perfect equity, other side is complete unfairness.  You’re right that we’ll never get perfect equity.  It’s impossible.  But we should be shooting for somewhere between the middle and perfect equity.  That’s reasonable and achievable.  

 

Perfect Equity_______________Middle_________________Complete Unfairness

 

Perry regional has always been tough…one of the toughest in the state.  Loading it further like this just puts things on the complete unfairness end.   IHSAA created another Mooresville regional.  It’s not good for wrestling. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by ghughes1974

[ghughes1974]

My understanding is that some schools are starting a letter campaign from parents.  

[ghughes1974]

Here's an interview on the topic of sectional realignment in Indianapolis.  

 

Scroll forward to minute: 117:30.  

 

 

[ghughes1974]

I'm going to continue this post with a new post called "IHSAA Wrestling Grievances – The 12 Days of IHSAA Christmas".  Check it out.  

[ghughes1974]

I spoke to Jim Tonte.  He confirmed he was not on the sectional realignment committee.  I’ve also talked to a couple folks who were on the committee.  What was described was that Robert Faulkens dismissed feedback from the committee and proceeded to execute the changes without their input.  If there are any other committee members out there who feel this is incorrect, I'd be happy to hear from you.

 

One sectional change I believe was a good one was moving Franklin Community out of Mooresville.  Mooresville regional is ridiculously loaded.  Moving a good team out is a step towards better balance.  If anything, they needed to move more top teams out of there.  

, 

[Y2CJ41]

Why don't you setup a meeting with Robert Faulkens to talk about all your grievances? To be honest he is the one to talk to for anything and everything IHSAA.

[Coach Moore]

4 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Why don't you setup a meeting with Robert Faulkens to talk about all your grievances? To be honest he is the one to talk to for anything and everything IHSAA.

I believe our regional attempted to. He backed out.