Potential Big Changes in Indiana Wrestling

[RHendricks9]

I would like to preface this by saying that I wrestled for a 2A (I use football classes because they make the most sense to me) school in high school. I always had a decent record going into the state tournament because the local competition was so bad. Despite my record I never made it to semi-state. And to be honest I didn’t deserve to, I wasn’t good. 

 

With this in mind I have been thinking about how many have called for wrestling to become a classed sport in the IHSAA despite every other individual sports (track, swimming, tennis) in Indiana not being being classed. I have compiled statistics from the state finals that I believe indicate that there is not a class problem. The first of these is that Brownsburg, Crown Point, and Center Grove brought 32 state qualifiers themselves that are going to produce almost as many state qualifiers as any other class before adding the rest of the 6A competitors. The statistics show that the percentage of students in each class is nearly the same as the percentage of state qualifiers they had in Gainbridge. 

 

6A- 30% of students, 33% of State qualifiers

5A- 19% of students, 14% of State qualifiers

4A- 23% of students, 23% of State qualifiers

3A- 13% of students, 14% of State qualifiers

2A- 9% of students, 10% of State qualifiers

1A- 6% of students, 6% of State qualifiers

 

But disparities do start to show when you look at the depth of the runs of each wrestler based on the size of school. The stats for placers, finalists, and champions are as follows: 

 

6A- 39% of State placers

5A- 14% of State placers

4A- 29% of State placers

3A- 11% of State placers

2A-, 5% of State placers

1A- 2% of State placers

 

6A- 47% of Finalists

5A- 22% of Finalists

4A- 18% of Finalists

3A- 8% of Finalists

2A-, 4% of Finalists

1A- 0% of Finalists

 

6A- 57% of Champions 

5A- 14% of Champions

4A- 29% of Champions

 

It is clear that bigger schools have more success deeper in the tournament. But I don’t think this is something that warrants a monumental shift to classed wrestling across the state. There are a multitude of factors that cause “big school” wrestlers to be more talented than their “small school” counterparts. First is more motivation for specialization. Although it is not unheard of for top wrestlers to also be talented wrestlers, there are also many very talented wrestlers who do not apply their athleticism to other sports which gives them more opportunity to develop their skill. Second bigger schools have more students which means more wrestlers which means more competition. And competition breeds success. This causes the wrestler to wrestle better as well as better training partners. Third areas with big schools are more likely to have wrestling clubs in the area that allow them to get better outside of the season. I believe this is the biggest difference maker. These factors are not necessarily reversible and I don’t believe that’s a bad thing. Big schools have a higher probability of being the teams that are hoisting trophies at the end of the year. The 1A/2A state tournament put on by Southmont is the perfect solution for this. I would love to see this be an in season tournament so the wrestlers can have better in season competition and so that the wrestling can feel like it means more. But this is a phenomenal solution to the “unfair advantage” big schools have. I believe there is a problem that is handicapping some teams in the tournament: 

 

The sectional, regional, and semi-state boundaries are absolutely atrocious. The distribution of placers among the semi-states was fairly even across the board. But as the matches meant more there were two clear semi-states that were better than the others. With Evansville even sweeping the final 4 in two different weight classes

 

Placers; Top 4; Finalists; Champions

Evansville: 35 (31%); 27 (48%); 17 (61%); 6 (43%) 

East Chicago: 28 (26%); 15 (27%); 8 (29%); 6 (43%) 

Fort Wayne: 25 (22%); 6 (11%); 1 (3%); 0

New Castle: 24 (21%); 8 (14%); 2 (7%); 2 (14%) 

 

On top of this Brownsburg goes to the semi-state that is farthest from them by driving time (according to Apple Maps). New Albany and Floyd Central are 20 minutes from Jeffersonville yet they drive 2 hours and an hour and a half respectively to get to their regional at Bloomington South. 

 

On top of that there is one sectional with 7 teams in it while there is another with 13 teams. That is almost a whole extra round guaranteed for the wrestlers at Jeffersonville sectional. I understand the map-drawing is not easy so I took the time to redraw the entire state series all the way down to the sectional. With every sectional having between 9-12 teams because the average is that there should be a little over 9 teams per sectional. I believe that implementing maps that make more sense and divide state powerhouses will make Indiana wrestling much better than classing it ever could. If assigned seats at state take that much energy out of the crowd, I would hate to see what happened if they only cared about 1/3 of the matches. 

 

The sectionals I divided are as follows: 

 

North (Notre Dame?)

1. (9) Whiting, Hammond Bishop Noll, East Chicago Central, Hammond Central, Hammond Morton, River Forest, Lake Station Edison, Hobart, Gary West side 

2. (9) Munster, Highland, Griffith, Calumet, Andrean, Merrillville, Lake Central, Illiana Christian, Portage

3. (10) Crown Point, Hanover Central, Lowell, Wheeler, Boone Grove, Hebron, Kankakee Valley, West Central, North Judson- San Pierre, Winimac Community

4. (10) Laporte, Valparaiso, Chesterton, Michigan City, New Prarie, Marquette Catholic, Glenn, South Bend Washington, Knox, Laville

5. (10) Culver Academy, Plymouth, Triton, Wawasee, Northwood, Concord, Bremen, Fairfield, Goshen, Culver Community

6. (10) Rochester, Wabash, Warsaw, Columbia City, Manchester, Whitko, North Miami, Caston, Tippecanoe Valley, Northfield

7. (9) South Bend Clay, South Bend Riley, South Bend Adams, South Bend Saint Joseph, Mishawaka Marion, Mishawaka, Penn, Elkhart, Jimtown

8. (9) Northridge, Westview, Lakeland, West Noble, Central Noble, Prairie Heights, Fremont, Angola, East Noble

 

East (New Castle)

1. (9) Eastside, Dekalb, Garrett, Churubusco, Carroll (Fort Wayne), Leo, Fort Wayne Northrop, Fort Wayne Bishop Dwenger, Woodlan 

2. (9) Fort Wayne Concordia Lutheran, Fort Wayne Snider, Homestead, Fort Wayne Northside, New Haven, Fort Wayne South side, Fort Wayne Bishop Leurs, Fort Wayne Wayne, Heritage

3. (11) Norwell, Jay County, Southern Wells, Southwood, Huntington North, Belmont, Bluffton, Adams Central, South Adams, Blackford, Eastbrook

4. (12) Peru, Lewis Cass, Maconaquah, Oak Hill, Southwood, Mississinewa, Jay County, Madison-Grant, Marion, Northwestern, Eastern (Greentown), Taylor

5. (11) Kokomo, Western, Tri-Central, Tipton, Hamilton Heights, Anderson, Alexandria Monroe, Elwood, Frankton, Lapel

6. (11) Wes-Del, Yorktown, Monroe Central, Daleville, Union City, Wapahani, Randolph Southern, Muncie Central, Delta, Cowan, Winchester Community

7. (11) Warren Central, Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, Eastern Hancock, New Palestine, Knightstown, Pendleton Heights, Shenandoah, Victory College Prep, Mount Vernon (Fortville), Greenfield-central

8. (11) Connersville, New Castle, Tri, Hagerstown, Cambridge City, Centerville, Richmond, Union County, Northeastern, Rushville, Blue River Valley

 

West (?)

1. (9) Terre Haute North, Northview, Terre Haute South, Greencastle, Sullivan, Cascade, South Putnam, West Vigo, Cloverdale

2. (10) South Vermillion, Parke Heritage, North Putnam, Plainfield, Decatur Central, Avon, Providence Cristo Rey, Ben Davis, Mooresville, Speedway

3. (10) Benton Central, South Newton, North Newton, Tri-County, West Lafayette, Harrison, Frontier, Twin Lakes, North White, Rensaleer Central

4. (9) North Montgomery, Southmont, Fountain Central, Crawfordsville, North Vermillion, Mccutcheon, Covington, Seeger, Attica

5. (9) LCC, Frankfort, Lafayette Jefferson, Rossville, Faith Christian, Delphi, Pioneer, Logansport, Carroll (Flora)

6. (9) Sheridan, Westfield, Guerin Catholic, Carmel, Clinton Central, Noblesville, Hamilton Southeastern, Zionsville, Fishers

7. (11) Bishop Chatard, Scecina, Cardinal Ritter, Crispus Attucks, Arsenal Tech, Christel House Academy, George Washington, School for the Deaf, Cathedral, Park Tudor, Purdue Polytechnic 

8. (10) Brownsburg, Clinton Prairie, North Central, Brebeuf Jesuit, Pike, School for the Blind, Western Boone, Tri-West, Danville, Lebanon

 

South (Ford Center) 

1. (9) Mount Vernon (Posey), North Posey, Evansville Reitz, Mater Dei, Evansville Central, Evansville Memorial, Evansville Bosse, Evansville Harrison, Evansville North

2. (9) Castle, Boonville, Tecumseh, South Spencer, Wood Memorial, Gibson Southern, Heritage Hills, Tell City, Forest Park

3. (10) Vincennes Lincoln, North Knox, Washington, Pike Central, Jasper, Southridge, Paoli, Mitchell, Bedford North Lawrence, Princeton

4. (9) Brown County, Edgewood, Owen Valley, Center Grove, Indian Creek, Martinsville, Bloomington North, Bloomington South, Eminence

5. (10) Crawford County, North Harrison, Corydon Central, Floyd Central, New Albany, Providence, Jeffersonville, Silver Creek, Borden, Rock Creek Academy

6. (10) West Washington, Salem, Eastern (Pekin), Scottsburg, New Washington, Southwestern, Madison Consolidated, Charlestown, Switzerland County, Seymour

7. (11) Batesville, East Central, Columbus East, Franklin County, South Dearborn, Lawrenceburg, Milan, Columbus North, Jennings County, Oldenburg Academy, Greensburg

8. (11) Shelbyville, Triton Central, Greenwood, Perry Meridian, Beech Grove, Franklin Central, Lutheran, Roncalli, Southport, Whiteland, Franklin Community

 

I would like to reiterate that Indiana wrestling has a structure problem and not a single class problem.

[Y2CJ41]

How many entries does each team get at sectional? Is that based on school size?

[RHendricks9]

3 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

How many entries does each team get at sectional? Is that based on school size?

I don’t think there’s any need to change the current system with 4 per sectional, I just feel like it could be useful for the state to restructure the semistates. 

[Y2CJ41]

Secondly, your state series realignment is great, however the IHSAA is very much tied down to who is willing and WANTS to host a state series event. The semi-states are not going to change location any time soon, so you need to draw the lines based on them and then move inward.

[Y2CJ41]

1 minute ago, RHendricks9 said:

I don’t think there’s any need to change the current system with 4 per sectional, I just feel like it could be useful for the state to restructure the semistates. 

I'll try this again...

 

How many entries does each team get at sectional? Is that based on school size?

[Galagore]

Respectfully disagree. Smalls schools and large schools are not playing the same game. The gap between the games they're playing grows wider every year.

[RHendricks9]

6 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I'll try this again...

 

How many entries does each team get at sectional? Is that based on school size?

I don’t think there’s any reason to change the one wrestler per team per weight class. I think the season and offseason tournaments are to decide who is the best from a certain school that year. I would like to see tournaments move towards having more opens like colleges do just so everyone is getting matches, but I think the postseason should remain the way it is. 

 

10 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Secondly, your state series realignment is great, however the IHSAA is very much tied down to who is willing and WANTS to host a state series event. The semi-states are not going to change location any time soon, so you need to draw the lines based on them and then move inward.

I suspected this was the largest issue in making wholesale changes. There are some things (Brownsburg taking the longest drive possible to a semistate, New Albany and Floyd Central driving over an hour and a half for regionals instead of 20 minutes) that just defy logic. 

[Y2CJ41]

6 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said:

I don’t think there’s any reason to change the one wrestler per team per weight class. I think the season and offseason tournaments are to decide who is the best from a certain school that year. I would like to see tournaments move towards having more opens like colleges do just so everyone is getting matches, but I think the postseason should remain the way it is. 

 

So are you going to answer my questions or not?

1. How many entries does each team get at sectional?
2. Is that based on school size?

[RHendricks9]

8 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So are you going to answer my questions or not?

1. How many entries does each team get at sectional?
2. Is that based on school size?

Each team gets one entry per weight class, so 14. It is not impacted by school size whatsoever. 

[Thor]

25 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Respectfully disagree. Smalls schools and large schools are not playing the same game. The gap between the games they're playing grows wider every year.

Perfect way to put it, and it hit me hard this year. I really want South Adams to have a state champ at some point in time, but I have no clue how a kid from our school is going to compete with kids from Brownsburg, Center Grove, and Crown Point, or any other schools like them. 

[Y2CJ41]

Just now, RHendricks9 said:

Each team gets one entry per weight class, so 14. It is not impacted by school size whatsoever. 

Thank you.

So thus if you are generating stats based on school size is that really fair? Even though Carmel has 5000 students only 14 get to wrestle at sectional, yet you are including the other 4984+ students your stats. Your stats seem skewed to the point that bigger schools get more entries, but in reality they get the same number of entries as the smaller schools.

 

 

[bwoodjc89]

IHSAA doesn't mind any sectional, regional etc being harder to advance through than others. It often happens in other sports that top ranked teams meet in Sectional or Regional. To rearrange sectionals, regionals, semi-states because the level of competition is currently imbalanced seems like an odd strategy for someone that is against class wrestling.

 

 

[randalllynch]

Sectional and Regional realignments are reviewed and changed every two or three years is my understanding, and was told that it is done to balance the strength of the regionals. 

 

That drive for sectional and regional is not a moral builder.

Edited March 2, 2023 by randalllynch

[RHendricks9]

9 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Thank you.

So thus if you are generating stats based on school size is that really fair? Even though Carmel has 5000 students only 14 get to wrestle at sectional, yet you are including the other 4984+ students your stats. Your stats seem skewed to the point that bigger schools get more entries, but in reality they get the same number of entries as the smaller schools.

 

 

I did hand-pick the stats, but I also am arguing that school size does not matter and that it is dependent on the wrestlers that go out there. Wrestling provides equal opportunity to all who step on the line. 

[RHendricks9]

16 minutes ago, Thor said:

Perfect way to put it, and it hit me hard this year. I really want South Adams to have a state champ at some point in time, but I have no clue how a kid from our school is going to compete with kids from Brownsburg, Center Grove, and Crown Point, or any other schools like them. 

Out of the 5 biggest schools in in Indiana, Adams Central had more state qualifiers than Ben Davis,  North Central, and Fishers. Culture and wrestlers matter more than school size

[Y2CJ41]

Just now, RHendricks9 said:

I did hand-pick the stats, but I also am arguing that school size does not matter and that it is dependent on the wrestlers that go out there. Wrestling provides equal opportunity to all who step on the line. 

 

1 hour ago, RHendricks9 said:

6A- 30% of students, 33% of State qualifiers

5A- 19% of students, 14% of State qualifiers

4A- 23% of students, 23% of State qualifiers

3A- 13% of students, 14% of State qualifiers

2A- 9% of students, 10% of State qualifiers

1A- 6% of students, 6% of State qualifiers

If school size didn't matter then of the approximately 4000 wrestlers that start sectional you would see a much more even divide per class. Adams Central gets the same number of chances at a state qualifier as Carmel. South Adams gets the same number of opportunities for a state qualifier as Sheridan. 

 

Your numbers do not show equality. Basing these numbers on TOTAL students is assuming every student is entered in the state series and that is false.

[Y2CJ41]

4 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said:

Out of the 5 biggest schools in in Indiana, Adams Central had more state qualifiers than Ben Davis,  North Central, and Fishers. Culture and wrestlers matter more than school size

Now do North Vermillion vs. Brownsburg

[bwoodjc89]

10 minutes ago, randalllynch said:

Sectional and Regional realignments are reviewed and changed every two or three years is my understanding, and was told that is done to balance the strength of the regionals. 

I believe realignments are done because of closings, consolidations, schools adding or dropping programs. Realigning for strength is likely a lower priority.

[Thor]

2 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said:

Out of the 5 biggest schools in in Indiana, Adams Central had more state qualifiers than Ben Davis,  North Central, and Fishers. Culture and wrestlers matter more than school size

A few points. 

1. Fishers has been a school for about 15 years, horrible data point going against a school going back 50

2. Ben Davis and North Central have way more placers than AC does. All three schools have more champs. If AC is such a strong program, why do they only have one champ?

3. AC goes through Fort Wayne, one of the easier semi states to only qualify out of in recent history

 

AC has a great wrestling culture, their kids put the work in and they have most of the best athletes in the school still do wrestling. But most of them are still two and three sport athletes don't have multiple kids their same level and weight range in the room. The only thing AC can't claim anymore is that they don't have to travel extensivley for RTCs now with Madman Wrestling, Indiana Tech RTC, and The Fort Wrestling all being close. 

[Y2CJ41]

12 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said:

Out of the 5 biggest schools in in Indiana, Adams Central had more state qualifiers than Ben Davis,  North Central, and Fishers. Culture and wrestlers matter more than school size

Qualifiers, Placers, Finalists, Champs
Adams Central    89    34    6    1
Ben Davis    110    58    19    13
North Central    88    49    20    10
Fishers    18    9    2    2

 

Fishers has only been a school since 2007, so the stats are very deceiving. Even in the short 15 years they have double the amount of state champions that Adams Central has.

North Central, while having one less state qualifier overall, has 10x the amount of state champions and 2.5x the amount of finalists.

Ben Davis kicks AC's butt overall.

[bwoodjc89]

It's kind of funny how people come up with schemes and ideas to get Brownsburg out of the Evansville semi-state. I don't think it's Brownsburg people though.

[ILUV2PIN]

12 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said:

Out of the 5 biggest schools in in Indiana, Adams Central had more state qualifiers than Ben Davis,  North Central, and Fishers. Culture and wrestlers matter more than school size

Altruistic of you to think that way.... but I just don't think that is the reality of wrestling in Indiana. Let's take it back to my time in high school (2007-2011). The tops dogs were still the big schools: Mishawaka, Crown Point, Perry Meridian, Warren Central, Lawrence North, etc.. A few small (public, sorry EMD) schools had some solid success (Bellmont, Yorktown) but nothing on the level of those big dogs. Just my 2 cents.

[Galagore]

19 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said:

I did hand-pick the stats, but I also am arguing that school size does not matter and that it is dependent on the wrestlers that go out there. Wrestling provides equal opportunity to all who step on the line. 

 

Wrestling provides zero opportunity. Wrestling provides a venue for showcasing the opportunities you have been fortunate enough to utilize.

[Galagore]

Another thing that people sometimes gloss over is this definition of "small school." There is small like Knox small...600 or so. Then there is small like Caston small...under 300. When you start getting into the schools that size, things change even more dramatically. If a wrestler (or even worse, group of wrestlers) decides to commit his/her spring to wrestling and does not play base/softball, then it very well may not be a matter of taking a good athlete away from a team. It may not mean that the team is now not very good...it may mean that the team now doesn't exist. Same for a lot of coaches. If a coach decides to go "all-in" on spring wrestling (or fall wrestling), it may not only impact the wrestling team. It may leave the cross country team without a coach. Does this happen in large schools? Of course. However...where is it more likely to happen?

 

Again, we are playing a different game at the small schools. Not worse. Not better. Different.

[Wrestling Scholar]

29 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said:

Out of the 5 biggest schools in in Indiana, Adams Central had more state qualifiers than Ben Davis,  North Central, and Fishers. Culture and wrestlers matter more than school size

I love Gene Hackman in "Hoosiers"