RHendricks9 Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: So you're saying an ELITE athlete can be good at multiple sports? Wow, this is a groundbreaking conversation we are having. So you’re saying only big schools can have elite athletes? I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate Disco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 It would be lovely to keep debating, but for now, I have to go help with MS wrestling practice. Maybe next year I will decide to truly work hard and go for it, but for now, the Cavs are stuck with my half-hearted efforts... GWCoach, Thor, mockdad79 and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said: So you’re saying only big schools can have elite athletes? I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate I said NOTHING about big or small schools in my statement. An athlete that gets DI offers in one sport is also very likely to be pretty good in their alternate sport due to being an ELITE ATHLETE. But for fun why not tell me how many DI football players are from 4A-6A and 1A-3A. I would guess it's from the bigger schools, but that's just a hunch. Disco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Also- while everybody has class wrestling on their mind. (1A-2A state) is at Southmont this Sunday. The small school guys have a consolation now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millertime81 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: So what you are saying is you are fine with small schools suffering and that's "life." It's rough but its a matter of what the wrestler wants. Why do people leave small towns and move to bigger cities? Why do companies leave small towns and build businesses in larger cities? It happens and will continue to happen. Its about resources. Some kids may have that drive in them to be the best they can be despite size of school, and that is fine. Also builds great character in a person by doing this. And I said other sports may suffer not small schools. But when this decision is made early, you really don't know what the future held, the only thing you can do is position yourself the best way you see fit. Some small schools have great programs in some sports and not so much in others. When you change jobs do you think about how the company you are leaving is going to suffer with you being gone? MUSKEEWRESTLER 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 36 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said: North Vermillion head coach: Robby Davis, 2x regional qualifier. Brownsburg head coach: Darrick Snyder, state placer and D3 national qualifier. Coaches are not always limited by their own success but their track record especially when one coach has 18 years more head coaching experience. There also is not many RTCs or other wrestling training facilities nearby to Vermillion County but I believed there will be as Indiana and even Illinois wrestling continue to grow. Again that doesn't answer the question, you said small schools like Adams Central are better than some big schools. Why isn't North Vermillion better than Brownsburg? How many state qualifiers did these 50+ schools with less than 360 students have? Eminence Randolph Southern Attica New Washington Rock Creek Academy Providence Cristo Rey Frontier West Central North Vermillion Borden Tri-County Indianapolis Lutheran South Newton Faith Christian Tri-Central Caston Tri Southwood Union City Clinton Central Southern Wells Culver Community Victory College Prep Triton Washington West Washington North White Cambridge City Lincoln Fountain Central Northfield Daleville Tecumseh Wes-Del North Miami Covington Lafayette Central Catholic Cloverdale Pioneer North Judson Providence Knightstown Sheridan Hagerstown Carroll (Flora) South Adams Madison-Grant Clinton Prairie Taylor Hebron Wapahani South Putnam North Newton Now lets compare then to the 5 biggest schools Fishers North Central Warren Central Ben Davis Carmel The small schools had 700 opportunities to get state qualifiers while the bigger group had 70. Surely having 10x the amount of entries at sectional would give them an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHendricks9 Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: Again that doesn't answer the question, you said small schools like Adams Central are better than some big schools. Why isn't North Vermillion better than Brownsburg? How many state qualifiers did these 50+ schools with less than 360 students have? Eminence Randolph Southern Attica New Washington Rock Creek Academy Providence Cristo Rey Frontier West Central North Vermillion Borden Tri-County Indianapolis Lutheran South Newton Faith Christian Tri-Central Caston Tri Southwood Union City Clinton Central Southern Wells Culver Community Victory College Prep Triton Washington West Washington North White Cambridge City Lincoln Fountain Central Northfield Daleville Tecumseh Wes-Del North Miami Covington Lafayette Central Catholic Cloverdale Pioneer North Judson Providence Knightstown Sheridan Hagerstown Carroll (Flora) South Adams Madison-Grant Clinton Prairie Taylor Hebron Wapahani South Putnam North Newton Now lets compare then to the 5 biggest schools Fishers North Central Warren Central Ben Davis Carmel The small schools had 700 opportunities to get state qualifiers while the bigger group had 70. Surely having 10x the amount of entries at sectional would give them an advantage. North Vermillion isn’t better than Brownsburg for the same reason all but Crown Point aren’t better than Brownsburg. Coaching, Culture, access to wrestling clubs and School buy-in ACMSBagubas and Disco 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Millertime81 said: It's rough but its a matter of what the wrestler wants. Why do people leave small towns and move to bigger cities? Why do companies leave small towns and build businesses in larger cities? It happens and will continue to happen. Its about resources. Some kids may have that drive in them to be the best they can be despite size of school, and that is fine. Also builds great character in a person by doing this. And I said other sports may suffer not small schools. But when this decision is made early, you really don't know what the future held, the only thing you can do is position yourself the best way you see fit. Some small schools have great programs in some sports and not so much in others. When you change jobs do you think about how the company you are leaving is going to suffer with you being gone? So again, you are fine with small school programs dying out such as we have seen recently with Blue River Valley, Oldenburg Academy, Wood Memorial, amongst others? The purpose of high school athletics goes way beyond winning and losing and the more kids that participate in athletics is good for society overall. If more kids specialize at small schools then that hurts ALL sports in the community and jeopardizes the school even sponsoring team sports. Families should not need to uproot their life for mediocre success in high school athletics. Wesley Rorabacher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Just now, RHendricks9 said: North Vermillion isn’t better than Brownsburg for the same reason all but Crown Point aren’t better than Brownsburg. Coaching, Culture, access to wrestling clubs and School buy-in So North Vermillion just doesn't work as hard, right? Disco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, RHendricks9 said: North Vermillion isn’t better than Brownsburg for the same reason all but Crown Point aren’t better than Brownsburg. Coaching, Culture, access to wrestling clubs and School buy-in Thought experiment, if North Vermillion right now, gained Brownsburg's staff, culture, was in the middle of a wrestling hotbed, and had a multi million dollar room and full administrative support, would they be able to field a nationally ranked team just from the kids in their community? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, RHendricks9 said: North Vermillion isn’t better than Brownsburg for the same reason all but Crown Point aren’t better than Brownsburg. Coaching, Culture, access to wrestling clubs and School buy-in So if the North Vermillion coach improves the culture by, open the wrestling room more to get more practice, takes a sales course to sell his kids to buy in, and improves his coaching skills by taking courses and watching video, he'll be better then Brownsburg? Edited March 2, 2023 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Brobst Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 hours ago, RHendricks9 said: West (?) 1. (9) Terre Haute North, Northview, Terre Haute South, Greencastle, Sullivan, Cascade, South Putnam, West Vigo, Cloverdale 2. (10) South Vermillion, Parke Heritage, North Putnam, Plainfield, Decatur Central, Avon, Providence Cristo Rey, Ben Davis, Mooresville, Speedway 3. (10) Benton Central, South Newton, North Newton, Tri-County, West Lafayette, Harrison, Frontier, Twin Lakes, North White, Rensaleer Central 4. (9) North Montgomery, Southmont, Fountain Central, Crawfordsville, North Vermillion, Mccutcheon, Covington, Seeger, Attica 5. (9) LCC, Frankfort, Lafayette Jefferson, Rossville, Faith Christian, Delphi, Pioneer, Logansport, Carroll (Flora) 6. (9) Sheridan, Westfield, Guerin Catholic, Carmel, Clinton Central, Noblesville, Hamilton Southeastern, Zionsville, Fishers 7. (11) Bishop Chatard, Scecina, Cardinal Ritter, Crispus Attucks, Arsenal Tech, Christel House Academy, George Washington, School for the Deaf, Cathedral, Park Tudor, Purdue Polytechnic 8. (10) Brownsburg, Clinton Prairie, North Central, Brebeuf Jesuit, Pike, School for the Blind, Western Boone, Tri-West, Danville, Lebanon I can't begin to respond to the whole thing, but here's the basics: 1) The IHSAA will NOT change Sectionals/Regionals/Semi-states just because one is loaded with talent. 2) I drew one up a couple years ago keeping same venues as hosts, but shuffling based on school sizes alone and balancing that out (since presently FW has only 2 4A schools), but mine, like most others, fell flat because ultimately any time one person does this, we look at it from a skewed lens of whatever benefits the teams/area we root for. Examining the rezoning above, it is clear you definitely mean that school size doesn't matter at all when designing these Sectionals. Sectionals 3, 4, and 5 each have just one larger school (3 has Harrison, 4 has 3A McCutcheon, 5 has Lafayette Jeff) but Sectional 6 gets Noblesville, HSE, Fishers, Carmel, Zionsville, AND Westfield. But don't worry Clinton Central and Sheridan kids still have just as good a chance because school size doesn't matter! We'll see what changes will come about, but my guess is 10-15 schools max will change sectionals, maybe half that change Regionals or Semi-State. In any case, it will take a committee of people to ensure there's no bias, or at least limit it. Y2CJ41 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualwrestlingfan Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Y2CJ41 said: So again, you are fine with small school programs dying out such as we have seen recently with Blue River Valley, Oldenburg Academy, Wood Memorial, amongst others? The purpose of high school athletics goes way beyond winning and losing and the more kids that participate in athletics is good for society overall. If more kids specialize at small schools then that hurts ALL sports in the community and jeopardizes the school even sponsoring team sports. Families should not need to uproot their life for mediocre success in high school athletics. For once, I will agree with most of what you posted. However the counter argument that both of you made with D1 football athletes. The recruiters aren't going to waste their time in football at least for most 2A & 1A athletes outside of the outliers like Kizer, Bowen, Smith, & Zachary to name a few. Even though they get mostly in state D1 offers compared to those from the 6A & 5A schools that get D1 offers from coast to coast. It's all about individuals doing what they think is best for their kids. Some with Johnny Superstar in 1A will move to the 5A school. Others would rather see their kid get an education with a lower student to teacher ratio while excelling at the lower level. They just have to push harder to get recruiters attention which isn't easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, casualwrestlingfan said: For once, I will agree with most of what you posted. However the counter argument that both of you made with D1 football athletes. The recruiters aren't going to waste their time in football at least for most 2A & 1A athletes outside of the outliers like Kizer, Bowen, Smith, & Zachary to name a few. Even though they get mostly in state D1 offers compared to those from the 6A & 5A schools that get D1 offers from coast to coast. It's all about individuals doing what they think is best for their kids. Some with Johnny Superstar in 1A will move to the 5A school. Others would rather see their kid get an education with a lower student to teacher ratio while excelling at the lower level. They just have to push harder to get recruiters attention which isn't easy. Again, yes there are ones that can uproot and move to a better school for athletics(or band, show choir, academics...whatever) and there are those that are not able to. Do we want this sport and sports in general at the high school level become one in which the ones with the money always win? Our sport has transformed drastically in the past 20 years in terms of who is having success. Class wrestling levels the field for the athletes to garner success against athletes that have similar situations. Having that success helps the smaller school programs tremendously. Flat out, small schools in this state are struggling and that is at the success and numbers level. There are 37 schools with over 2000 students and 44 with less than 300 in the state with wrestling. Yet, they are supposedly equal in terms of being able to get a state qualifier/placer/champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformedPoster Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 42 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: I said NOTHING about big or small schools in my statement. An athlete that gets DI offers in one sport is also very likely to be pretty good in their alternate sport due to being an ELITE ATHLETE. But for fun why not tell me how many DI football players are from 4A-6A and 1A-3A. I would guess it's from the bigger schools, but that's just a hunch. Mr. Football was from a 2A school. Jack Kiser was a 1A player, Jaylon Smith was 2A. The position award winner for QB this year was 2A. Disco and MUSKEEWRESTLER 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millertime81 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 12 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: So again, you are fine with small school programs dying out such as we have seen recently with Blue River Valley, Oldenburg Academy, Wood Memorial, amongst others? The purpose of high school athletics goes way beyond winning and losing and the more kids that participate in athletics is good for society overall. If more kids specialize at small schools then that hurts ALL sports in the community and jeopardizes the school even sponsoring team sports. Families should not need to uproot their life for mediocre success in high school athletics. I’m not ok with it. But if there was 6 wrestlers on the team and one left, is he the reason it died? Who’s uprooting? That’s a little far, some have options to change schools in the area without uprooting. Mediocre success…. Can you expand? I think there are some kids that held that championship that wouldn’t call that mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformedPoster Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: Well that seals it, no way we should have classed wrestling. Nowhere did I say I am for or against class wrestling. Simply pointing out that some of the best football players in this state's recent history have come from small schools. Disco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millertime81 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 12 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: So again, you are fine with small school programs dying out such as we have seen recently with Blue River Valley, Oldenburg Academy, Wood Memorial, amongst others? The purpose of high school athletics goes way beyond winning and losing and the more kids that participate in athletics is good for society overall. If more kids specialize at small schools then that hurts ALL sports in the community and jeopardizes the school even sponsoring team sports. Families should not need to uproot their life for mediocre success in high school athletics. I’m not ok with it. But if there was 6 wrestlers on the team and one left, is he the reason it died? Who’s uprooting? That’s a little far, some have options to change schools in the area without uprooting. Mediocre success…. Can you expand? I think there are some kids that held that championship that wouldn’t call that mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHendricks9 Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 38 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: So North Vermillion just doesn't work as hard, right? I’m sure those kids work extremely hard. And I think they should continue to do so because I think anything is possible on the individual level. I think even the dying programs could be revived if they established a good culture and used that to build a strong youth program Disco and MUSKEEWRESTLER 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHendricks9 Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 41 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said: I can't begin to respond to the whole thing, but here's the basics: 1) The IHSAA will NOT change Sectionals/Regionals/Semi-states just because one is loaded with talent. 2) I drew one up a couple years ago keeping same venues as hosts, but shuffling based on school sizes alone and balancing that out (since presently FW has only 2 4A schools), but mine, like most others, fell flat because ultimately any time one person does this, we look at it from a skewed lens of whatever benefits the teams/area we root for. Examining the rezoning above, it is clear you definitely mean that school size doesn't matter at all when designing these Sectionals. Sectionals 3, 4, and 5 each have just one larger school (3 has Harrison, 4 has 3A McCutcheon, 5 has Lafayette Jeff) but Sectional 6 gets Noblesville, HSE, Fishers, Carmel, Zionsville, AND Westfield. But don't worry Clinton Central and Sheridan kids still have just as good a chance because school size doesn't matter! We'll see what changes will come about, but my guess is 10-15 schools max will change sectionals, maybe half that change Regionals or Semi-State. In any case, it will take a committee of people to ensure there's no bias, or at least limit it. it would definitely take someone smarter than me to effectively restructure it. I just wanted to throw out what I thought of. And five of those six giant schools that you named are already in the same sectional, because it makes sense for that region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHendricks9 Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said: So if the North Vermillion coach improves the culture by, open the wrestling room more to get more practice, takes a sales course to sell his kids to buy in, and improves his coaching skills by taking courses and watching video, he'll be better then Brownsburg? Better than Brownsburg is a really tall task. 320+ teams couldn’t do it so I wouldn’t say that. I think those sales classes could position themselves in a place to make a difference at state though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie78 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 W-R-E-S-T-L-E-B-A-C-K-S-! dstruck and indypharmd 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenHeavyHandz Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ReformedPoster said: Mr. Football was from a 2A school. Jack Kiser was a 1A player, Jaylon Smith was 2A. The position award winner for QB this year was 2A. Jaylon Smith went to a 2A Catholic School with a long history of being successful at state. They won 4 in a row . He came up in the Metro League here that produces D-1 talent and NFL players and Hall of Famers. They've routinely beat larger schools like Snider and Carroll. Not a good comparison. Edited March 2, 2023 by GenHeavyHandz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 hour ago, ReformedPoster said: Mr. Football was from a 2A school. Jack Kiser was a 1A player, Jaylon Smith was 2A. The position award winner for QB this year was 2A. 2 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said: Jaylon Smith went to a 2A Catholic School with a long history of being successful at state. They won 4 in a row . He came up in the Metro League here that produces D-1 talent and NFL players and Hall of Famers. They've routinely beat larger schools like Snider and Carroll. Not a good comparison. What weight did they wrestle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenHeavyHandz Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Just now, Silence Dogood said: What weight did they wrestle? he never wrestled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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