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11 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I'd prefer that you just call it the "we don't want to work hard" Invitational.

Never once said that.  Don’t think anyone else has either.  I don’t know any wrestlers that don’t work hard.  
 

More than once on this thread someone for class system acts like that is a claim someone has made. 
 

Really seems to make the discussion repetitious. 

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It doesn't matter if random fans remember who a "champion" is. It matters to the kids that win and their schools. High school athletics should not be about the wins and losses, it NEEDS to be about bu

In my opinion. Coaches encouraging kids to do one sport only is the biggest issue to why participation in all sports is down. 

Most people won't ever understand small school athletics. It's easy to say just work harder. I've been coaching small schools for 33 years. It's been a struggle for most of them. We don't have the sam

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1 hour ago, TakeTheShot said:

Never once said that.  Don’t think anyone else has either.  I don’t know any wrestlers that don’t work hard.  
 

More than once on this thread someone for class system acts like that is a claim someone has made. 
 

Really seems to make the discussion repetitious. 

It's been said over and over to "just work harder" and only the kids that work hard make the finals. Just like your snide remarks about your name for a classed event. Obviously you would be fine with 20 programs in the state as long as we had the true champion and only 150 kids participating in the sport.

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I understand your belief that you could get more kids out if they think they have a chance to advance, and then jump to the belief that it would lead them to “work harder” to increase their skills... thereby raising all ships.  I just haven’t been convinced enough that it would produce those results.

 

Where would the Mater Dei kids fall in this? I don’t think they would be content not facing the very top talent out there in the state

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13 minutes ago, base said:

I understand your belief that you could get more kids out if they think they have a chance to advance, and then jump to the belief that it would lead them to “work harder” to increase their skills... thereby raising all ships.  I just haven’t been convinced enough that it would produce those results.

 

Where would the Mater Dei kids fall in this? I don’t think they would be content not facing the very top talent out there in the state

Mater Dei could move up if they wished as they do for team state.

 

More kids getting recognized for their work is never a bad thing. Is it horrible that we hand out 1A, 2A, 3A, and 4A awards for kids and coaches? Am I breaking some unwritten sin to recognize more kids for their efforts in the sport? 

 

Looking at participation numbers we won't have much to work with in the very near future unless something is done. Losing 25% of our athletes in 10ish years and almost doubling our forfeits isn't exactly a good sign for the future. We have lost 2000 wrestlers which is 6 per team or 140 full squads. We have lost 25 full teams just in forfeits. I don't want to be Chicken Little here, however those aren't good signs.

 

As stated earlier, what will it take for you to consider class wrestling? Do we need to lose 25 programs? How about 50, 100? What if we average 7 forfeits per team? Just curious what the tipping point is.

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Seriously, besides the IHSAA not cooperating on the schedule, why can't we have both? (Insert the Ortega girl on the hard and soft shell commercial.) I know the IHSWCA Classed Team State duals are more important to my alma mater. We're a growing 1A (probably a 2A in football now but traditionally good 1A football team) that finds our niche. Most years we were not beating Bellmont in the single class (or Yorktown). Once the classed duals came along we won the first few or finished 2nd. That helped retain wrestlers and allowed new ones to join so they could be part of a championship team. They wouldn't have came out in the single class team state duals (I personally like to see that come back in addition). As for the current individual tournament, the goal is just to get a qualifier for the most part. Now for the experienced ones, I'm sure it's to also place. I know those guys want to be top of the podium, but not as likely due to being multi sport athletes that usually get a late start for wrestling season. I think we could possibly get more football players and others if we had a classed individual tournament. I also believe they'd want to participate in a single class as well, but have lower expectations. The classed individual tournament in 1A or 2A could allow more multi sport athletes get a tangible win instead of finishing 7th in the single class tournament with 6 wrestling only/academy studs placing above them. I also think giving more mat time could possibly bridge that gap. No reason we couldn't have the season from Nov to March like basketball does. Yes I wrestled and played hoops so I know the grind of both.

Edited by casualwrestlingfan
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This is dumb.  Where are all the UFC Champions from?  The bigger gyms.  

 

I'm not saying at Garrett we can't get kids to the finals and win a state championship.  We have made the finals and we will have an individual champion.

 

But, to say, or to infer that big schools don't have an advantage is ignorant.  Period.  We've had 3 placers since I've been at Garrett.  They've had to work their butts off to find matches outside of season and their partners are typically our coaches who were collegiate wrestlers.  

 

We don't have the luxury of having a kid show up in our hallways as a freshman, we get him to wrestle, and boom he's under the lights within 4 years.  Since I've been at Garrett we've started them young and I'm sure we will have some high placers in the future, but wouldn't it be a lot easier at a bigger school with more money, more resources, better training partners?  We can out coach some of the biggest baddest schools in Indiana wrestling and still lose.  Iron sharpens iron.  We've been getting the best athletes out for wrestling at our school, but again, there'd be a lot more to choose from if we had 1500-3000 kids instead of under 600.

 

106 state champ (enrollment 1819)

113 state champ (enrollment 2445)

120 state champ (enrollment 2063)

126 state champ (enrollment 1099/parochial--not saying they recruit...they don't have to--people come to them)

132 state champ (enrollment 2810)

138 state champ (enrollment 2855)

145 state champ (enrollment 2055)

152 state champ (enrollment 1815)

160 state champ (enrollment  497.....MD...parochial...don't argue with me, but this is not a normal "small school"

170 state champ (enrollment 1225)

182 state champ (enrollment 497 ...MD...see above)

195 state champ (enrollment 225...they should make a movie about the kid...awesome)

220 state champ (enrollment 1747)

285 state champ (enrollment 2412)

 

But, the big schools just work harder than us little pions ...

 

btw I like the one class system for individual state...but some of these arguments are flat out arrogant and ignorant 

Edited by nkraus
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23 hours ago, TakeTheShot said:

Many sport participations are down. Football is getting killed, and it not due to lack of opportunity. Kids and parents don’t like the injury risks involved—whether it be concussions or COVID (now that they have taken more press than the sports themselves)—and the work it takes to be good at something. 
 

Let’s be honest...you have to be nuts to be an elite wrestler. If the hot practices and hard work in the room don’t scare you away the dieting and mental component of this sport definitely will. Compare that to what it takes to be part of a basketball team and I can tell you what most young kids looking to try something other than video games are going to pick. 
 

Wrestling, no doubt, creates the hardest working, mentally tough leaders in life—business leaders, church leaders, social leaders. Hell, after wrestling, that stuff is easy. I am arguing, it also attracts those types of kids. Those that have big goals in sports, school, and life.  
 

Honestly, if you are waiting until high school to instill what it takes to do well you are missing the boat. This stuff happens when they are in early grade school and more and more in preschool. I have seen more mental toughness in some 6-8th graders than I have seen with 21 y/os I hire. That’s why I hire as many wrestlers I can. They will outwork everyone else and do what it takes to succeed without needing their hand held. I don’t have try and teach that to an adult that was given everything. They were learning what it takes to be successful in kindergarten. 
 

Indiana has a good thing going and our state’s representation at the next level is growing. I would argue because of the way the ihsaa does things, not despite it. Honestly, probably has a even more to do with what our clubs and feeder programs are doing. That’s were you need levels and guess what...there are levels. Beyond the scope of this post and if you have tried to recruit participation at the ages you need to you would know. Anything from 2 kids rolling around with huge smiles and clueless to two 6 year old pitbulls running moves most teams can’t teach their high schoolers because it’s too advanced.  Both are awesome and both of these types of matches create state champs. I’ve seen it.  However if your room still has the kids rolling around with big smiles and no clue, they really don’t need to be called champions. But they can still be hard working, mentally tough wrestlers getting better prepared for life. 

I get some of what you're saying...so since we've had a bunch of kids wrestling since kindergarten that'll roll into my high school program in about 4-5 years...we should have a bunch of state champions despite our school size ?

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So I dont really want to get dragged into this argument again. I am against classing the individual tournament.  Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state.  When it comes to placers/ champs there will be an advantage to bigger schools, I think there are arguments for the stats on that. With that being said I was interested to see two stats.  1- How other states around us, and with one class systems looked in terms of numbers.

2. How we looked in terms of % of our population that wrestles (I realize that there are surely better ways to quantify how not classing effects our numbers, but I didnt have time to look up the number of HS boys who live in the various states).

So anyhow I used NFHS Data, and a website that estimates the population of the state in 2019.  Here is what I got.  Take of it what you will.

 

Wrestling Participation Chart.jpg

Edited by ENoblewrestling
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State Pop Wrestlers %
Iowa 3155000 6523 0.002068
Ill 12671000 14170 0.001118
NJ 8882000 9648 0.001086
Indiana 6732000 6363 0.000945
Michigan 9987000 9167 0.000918
Ohio 11689000 10313 0.000882
Penn 12802000 9460 0.000739
Cali 39512000 22602 0.000572
Kentucky 4468000 1902 0.000426
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25 minutes ago, nkraus said:

I get some of what you're saying...so since we've had a bunch of kids wrestling since kindergarten that'll roll into my high school program in about 4-5 years...we should have a bunch of state champions despite our school size ?

It’s a heck of start. Kids that fall in love with the sport when young;  Coaches that love putting in the time (and it takes a lot of time) at the both the lowest level and taking the more skilled teams to Virginia Beach and Tulsa when ready; Parents that enjoy being around each other for long days and long road trips and have the financial resources to take time off work and lose weekends that could be spent doing other things is a huge start. 
 

It’s the “despite our school size” thinking that will always hold you back cause that isn’t going to change. Everything I mentioned can happen no matter where you live. You conceded the detail you need—“a bunch of kids wrestling since gradeschool”. I don’t know what number “a bunch” has to be but 2 about the same size always pushing each other is a great start. 

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5 hours ago, Galagore said:

Now, dont complain about the specifics, but here is the best map i could make up with Microsoft paint.

 

I'm positive I made mistakes about school districts and such but you get the general idea.

0001.jpg

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7 minutes ago, TakeTheShot said:

It’s a heck of start. Kids that fall in love with the sport when young;  Coaches that love putting in the time (and it takes a lot of time) at the both the lowest level and taking the more skilled teams to Virginia Beach and Tulsa when ready; Parents that enjoy being around each other for long days and long road trips and have the financial resources to take time off work and lose weekends that could be spent doing other things is a huge start. 
 

It’s the “despite our school size” thinking that will always hold you back cause that isn’t going to change. Everything I mentioned can happen no matter where you live. You conceded the detail you need—“a bunch of kids wrestling since gradeschool”. I don’t know what number “a bunch” has to be but 2 about the same size always pushing each other is a great start. 

I like what you’re saying and we do some of those things in my town.  The programs you’re describing are the top teams in Indiana, which happen to be wealthy programs with wealthy club accounts. They have the money and resources.  We still are going to try to win SS and state and all of that.  We’ve won matches against the powerhouses at state, but for a general rule of thumb , we do have more obstacles.  Paying for kids trips, scheduling awesome opponents, having kids play multiple sports, and training partners are a few examples.  Wouldn’t it be a lot easier for me to have a kid who ONLY wrestles?  That doesn’t happen in small town Indiana where the 170 pound kid is a lineman.  Wouldn’t it be easier if our club account had $xx,xxx in it instead of $xxxx?  We can fix that sure, but we are already paying for a lot for kids.  I’d say there’s no lack of effort at my school and I know other small schools that are similar.  
 

Again, I’m okay with the one class system and we will roll with whatever’s happening in Indiana, but clearly the big schools have a huge advantage and that’s not hard to see. 

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28 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

So I dont really want to get dragged into this argument again. I am against classing the individual tournament.  Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state.  When it comes to placers/ champs there will be an advantage to bigger schools, I think there are arguments for the stats on that. With that being said I was interested to see two stats.  1- How other states around us, and with one class systems looked in terms of numbers.

2. How we looked in terms of % of our population that wrestles (I realize that there are surely better ways to quantify how not classing effects our numbers, but I didnt have time to look up the number of HS boys who live in the various states).

So anyhow I used NFHS Data, and a website that estimates the population of the state in 2019.  Here is what I got.  Take of it what you will.

 

Wrestling Participation Chart.jpg

Thank you for the data. Illinois and New Jersey look to be successful in 2018-2019 especially. Indiana down. Have to consider Illinois and New Jersey lost residents while Indiana population growing. May be success in growing wrestling in IL and NJ or just the fact they are horribly ran states that lost residents, while IN population growing while wrestling making a slight dip. 

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I mean , we went to Disney and wrestled the Gold Division, but we weren’t supposed to because of school size...we did because what’s the point of traveling to Florida to wrestle the 2a Team State Championship ? We are definitely trying.  I’ve even been asking to split our conference into two divisions for years so we don’t have to wrestle everybody in our conference.  We want more opportunities with schools like Penn, Mishawaka, Chesterton, etc.  

 

We’ve had a few kids at Al Smith with some unique results 

 

BD goes 1-2 at Al Smith

then places 3rd at state and beats Al Smith champ at state (why’d he go 1-2 at Al Smith?  Was it because of our schedule that I can’t change much ?)

CF 3rd and 4th at Al Smith, but 2x runner up.  (Did he lose his first encounter at Al Smith because of our schedule that I can’t change much  ?)

It’s all a debate and I have no problem debating, but we are trying as I know other small schools are 

Edited by nkraus
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Why not throw small school teams with limited athletes / practice partners a bone and allow a practice waiver during season? In other words, allow kids to seek additional instruction outside of normal school practices to get better. Maybe even allow a few small schools with limited rosters to practice together once a week to be able to get some kind of quality practice in to keep up with the bigger schools and their seemingly endless amount of athletes. 

 

These ideas may sound dumb but a lot of small schools are desperate for quality practice time. 

 

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"Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state."

 

Explain the statement above to me...this year approximately 106 of the 224 state qualifiers were from 5A and 6A football schools. That's 64 of roughly 310 schools (20%) accounting for almost 50% of the field.

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9 minutes ago, Pug said:

"Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state."

 

Explain the statement above to me...this year approximately 106 of the 224 state qualifiers were from 5A and 6A football schools. That's 64 of roughly 310 schools (20%) accounting for almost 50% of the field.

Now add 4A Football Schools and see what happens.  If anyone truly believes this statement, "Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state.", is true, then it's not possible to have a meaningful conversation.

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11 minutes ago, Pug said:

"Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state."

 

Explain the statement above to me...this year approximately 106 of the 224 state qualifiers were from 5A and 6A football schools. That's 64 of roughly 310 schools (20%) accounting for almost 50% of the field.

My assumption is that those 64 schools represent almost 50% of the student enrollments of the state.  If you start with that number, it makes sense statistically.  If you start with every school can enter 14 wrestlers, then it does not.

 

Teams (big school or small school) that have more wrestlers in the room will statistically have better wrestlers overall.  Usually a wrestler that has to beat out 3 or 4 other kids on his team to be varsity is going to be better than one that gets the spot by default (maybe even pulled out of the hallway to fill an opening).  What's weird is that this argument can be used to justify 1 class and also to show why it's unfair and should be classed.

 

I would be fine with going to 2 or 3 classes.  However, the IHSAA is fundamentally opposed to it right now.  It would take all individual sports banding together in order to change the IHSAA's mindset.

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14 minutes ago, Pug said:

"Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state."

 

Explain the statement above to me...this year approximately 106 of the 224 state qualifiers were from 5A and 6A football schools. That's 64 of roughly 310 schools (20%) accounting for almost 50% of the field.

It has to do with population, its been a while since I saw the actual numbers but it's something like 50% of all Indiana students go to 3A (wrestling team state) schools, so it makes sense they represent 50% of the state tournament field. 

 

Yes, it is more likely that a state qualifier level kid will come from Carmel (2000+ kids) than it is he will come from Angola (~900 kids). But the chances that any randomly selected INDIVIDUAL will be a state level kid is the same regardless where they are from. It is an individual tournament after all, so this is not a good argument. 

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2 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

My assumption is that those 64 schools represent almost 50% of the student enrollments of the state.  If you start with that number, it makes sense statistically.  If you start with every school can enter 14 wrestlers, then it does not.

 

Teams (big school or small school) that have more wrestlers in the room will statistically have better wrestlers overall.  Usually a wrestler that has to beat out 3 or 4 other kids on his team to be varsity is going to be better than one that gets the spot by default (maybe even pulled out of the hallway to fill an opening).  What's weird is that this argument can be used to justify 1 class and also to show why it's unfair and should be classed.

 

I would be fine with going to 2 or 3 classes.  However, the IHSAA is fundamentally opposed to it right now.  It would take all individual sports banding together in order to change the IHSAA's mindset.

What would those numbers look like if schools could enter 20 kids at sectional? We had a backup pin a state qualifier this year, getting him in the lineup could have skewed those numbers even further towards big schools. 

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2 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

That only happens in Fort Wayne 🤣

This isn't entirely true, Perry often has 3 year backups end up placing high at state as seniors but it's also definitely not entirely false. Hence my point, geography matters a heck of a lot more than size, proximity to good clubs is way more important than the number of kids walking the halls.

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12 hours ago, ENoblewrestling said:

So I dont really want to get dragged into this argument again. I am against classing the individual tournament.  Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state.  When it comes to placers/ champs there will be an advantage to bigger schools, I think there are arguments for the stats on that. With that being said I was interested to see two stats.  1- How other states around us, and with one class systems looked in terms of numbers.

2. How we looked in terms of % of our population that wrestles (I realize that there are surely better ways to quantify how not classing effects our numbers, but I didnt have time to look up the number of HS boys who live in the various states).

So anyhow I used NFHS Data, and a website that estimates the population of the state in 2019.  Here is what I got.  Take of it what you will.

 

Wrestling Participation Chart.jpg

From my analysis of your very colorful and pretty charts,  the two states with the most marked decrease are California and Indiana  (both single class states).   The other states with class wrestling seem more stable.

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22 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

 

I would be fine with going to 2 or 3 classes.  However, the IHSAA is fundamentally opposed to it right now.  It would take all individual sports banding together in order to change the IHSAA's mindset.

We kind of mentioned that earlier that  we need to engage and corroborate with the Class Tennis, Class Golf,  Class Track, Class Cross Country and the Class Swimming community to change things.   I suppose the question is there really a subset of people in these communities that would be strongly interested in changing the format.  I know some tennis people that arent happy with the current format and would be up for change.  Does anybody know people in the Track, Golf or swimming that would change this.   

 

My thought on  swimming is that most small schools dont have facilities to have a swim team, so they are affected less by the single class because they dont compete.

 

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3 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

We kind of mentioned that earlier that  we need to engage and corroborate with the Class Tennis, Class Golf,  Class Track, Class Cross Country and the Class Swimming community to change things.   I suppose the question is there really a subset of people in these communities that would be strongly interested in changing the format.  I know some tennis people that arent happy with the current format and would be up for change.  Does anybody know people in the Track, Golf or swimming that would change this.   

 

My thought on  swimming is that most small schools dont have facilities to have a swim team, so they are affected less by the single class because they dont compete.

 

I'd suggest starting with the small school ADs.  They represent all of those sports in those schools and are ultimately the ones that would have to propose the change to the IHSAA.

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