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semi state draws

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44 minutes ago, wildcats2020 said:

why did south dearbon get the better draws out of richmond regional.

State ranked kids they will probably face to advance to BLF

106 — vs #9, then #5

120 — vs #5

132 — vs #2

145 — vs #20

152 — vs unranked, Good draw

220 — vs #16, then #4

So you consider that a good draw for the South Dearborn wrestlers?  Wow.

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1 hour ago, wildcats2020 said:

why did south dearbon get the better draws out of richmond regional.

Sounds more to me like you’re probably unaware of the process.  Matches are paired using a formula between the 4 Regionals and their placements.  I realize at times it may seem like certain kids receive better draws than others.....and honestly, they have.  But it’s not because there is someone overseeing matters that ensures certain kids get an easier path, while others get the hard road.  That’s why working hard and trying to secure a #1 seed is so important.

I noticed you had just joined the site a couple weeks ago.  So my response to you is based on helping you better understand the process a bit.  And giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you’re not trying to create strife with a rival school.  Because I can attest to the fact that the individuals I personally know from SD......spill their guts year round to be the best version of themselves possible, and deserve all the success and good fortune that comes their way.

Hope this gives you some clarity. 

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On 2/5/2019 at 10:08 AM, Indysportsfan said:

State ranked kids they will probably face to advance to BLF

106 — vs #9, then #5

120 — vs #5

132 — vs #2

145 — vs #20

152 — vs unranked, Good draw

220 — vs #16, then #4

So you consider that a good draw for the South Dearborn wrestlers?  Wow.

im saying if you look at all the other unranked kids  they have the better draw out of the rest of them 

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i understand if a few of them have good draws but there whole team that made it to semi-state  does and  i have been on this site for more than a few weeks i understand how it all works you say they use a formula but why does always seem one sided 

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2 minutes ago, wildcats2020 said:

im saying if you look at all the other unranked kids  they have the better draw out of the rest of them 

At each weight they will need to beat one of the best kids, in the entire state of Indiana, to advance except for 152.  How much tougher can you get?  If you need to beat an Anthony, Eldred, Viduya, and Cornwell just to get to the Final 4 you DO NOT have an easy draw.  At 145 Hall, who is ranked #2, will probably still need to beat a Top 20 wrestler to advance.  152 is the ONLY weight, out of 6, where they catch a break as far as wrestling ranked kids.

What other team are you talking about that has a rougher draw?  I am not saying there isn't one, but I can guarantee you South Dearborn did not get easy paths to BLF.  

 

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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but the "formula" is essentially a blind draw by the IHSAA. Essentially, they mix it up so that Regional 1 is paired up against Regionals 2, 3, 4 relatively evenly across the 14 brackets & so on. The Semistate brackets are determined before the Regionals are wrestled but those SS brackets are kept secret from the coaches.

So you may look at the SS bracket & feel that your school got hosed. If that happens, it's just bad luck in reality. Maybe wrestler #1 is paired up with a stud from Regional 2, wrestler #2 has a ticket-round match with a monster from Regional 3, etc.

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30 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but the "formula" is essentially a blind draw by the IHSAA. Essentially, they mix it up so that Regional 1 is paired up against Regionals 2, 3, 4 relatively evenly across the 14 brackets & so on. The Semistate brackets are determined before the Regionals are wrestled but those SS brackets are kept secret from the coaches.

So you may look at the SS bracket & feel that your school got hosed. If that happens, it's just bad luck in reality. Maybe wrestler #1 is paired up with a stud from Regional 2, wrestler #2 has a ticket-round match with a monster from Regional 3, etc.

You are partially right.  The formula is a bit more complex.  The same Regionals are not paired at every weight.  For example, at Evansville SS.... the Evansville North Regional is matched against Jeffersonville in 4 weights, Mooresville in 6 weights and Bloomington South in 6 weights.  The first six weights go like this:

106 - EV vs. JF; MO vs. BS
113 - EV vs. MO; JF vs. BS
120 - EV vs. MO; JF vs. BS
126 - EV vs. BS; JF vs. MO
132 - EV vs. MO; JF vs. BS
138 - EV vs. JF; MO vs. BS

As you can see there is no pattern.  Exactly when that formula is determined and by who I cannot say.  But I am pretty confident there is no way there is time (nor the desire) to look at the Regional Placings and try to figure out how to make the brackets worse or better for certain schools.  That would be a nightmare and virtually impossible!

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1 hour ago, slice60 said:

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but the "formula" is essentially a blind draw by the IHSAA. Essentially, they mix it up so that Regional 1 is paired up against Regionals 2, 3, 4 relatively evenly across the 14 brackets & so on. The Semistate brackets are determined before the Regionals are wrestled but those SS brackets are kept secret from the coaches.

So you may look at the SS bracket & feel that your school got hosed. If that happens, it's just bad luck in reality. Maybe wrestler #1 is paired up with a stud from Regional 2, wrestler #2 has a ticket-round match with a monster from Regional 3, etc.

Maybe this will help clarify how the brackets are done. At first glance they DO look biased sometimes. But if you look at the actual formula & how it’s applied, it really clears things up. So for my example, I just used the 120# wt class for the NC SS. The 4 feeder regionals (in alpha.order) are:

A)North Mont

B)Pend Heights

C)Perry Meridian

D)Richmond

So you take the 4 placers of each regional and give each one a “code” name. The 1st place kid from North Mont is Carson Eldred, so we’ll give him A1. The 1st placer from Pend Heights will be B1. And you go on through them and end with A1-A4, B1-B4, etc. 

The formula says we’ll do Reg A vs Reg C, and Reg B vs Reg D for the 120# class.

Plug all that into your standard 16 man single elim bracket where #1 seeds wrestle the #4 seed from their paired regional and you get the following:

30E6AE8D-0468-434F-950A-5593D11C3675.thumb.jpeg.6d7862d6ba5b7e92a825b10f1604069f.jpeg

Each regional is represented in each Qtr bracket so you dont see anyone from your own regional until after the ticket round. The real bummer is that some regionals are just really strong, therefore all 4 placers could be total BA’s, while another is only strong in the top 1 or 2. But there’s really no way to control that...

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Also note that these formulas are made up before regionals are finalized so the ihsaa has know control where any of the wrestlers are going to end up. Some times upsets happen that could lead to a probable regional champion finishing 2nd or 3rd creating a "bad" draw for a regional champion. Not to mention if the ihsaa was going to purposely rig the brackets to help specific teams I don't think they would use their power to help a school like South Dearborn while there's numerous match ups between Warren Central and cathedral on the way to making state therefore costing two contenders team points. Like others have said any "good" draw is luck. 

Edited by bbulldog152

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14 hours ago, wildcats2020 said:

i understand if a few of them have good draws but there whole team that made it to semi-state  does and  i have been on this site for more than a few weeks i understand how it all works you say they use a formula but why does always seem one sided 

To say their whole team that qualified for SS have good draws is at best an uneducated opinion while at worst is simply a jilted/biased opinion.

At 132, their wrestler got the toughest draw possible. He must beat the #2 ranked & former State Champ Alec Viduya to advance.

At 120, their wrestler got the 2nd toughest draw. He must beat the #5 ranked & fromer State Placer Carson Eldred to advance.

At 220, their wrestler got the 2nd toughest draw. He must beat the #16 ranked & then the #4 ranked & former State Placer Kyle Cornwell to advance.

At 145, their wrestler got the 2nd easiest path. But as a Regional Champ, he earned his draw & still must beat the #20 ranked Terrell Leavell to advance.

At 106, their wrestler seemingly got the best draw possible, but he must still beat the #9 & #10 ranked kids to advance. This weight is simply stacked at NC & there is no easy draw.

Lastly at 152, their wrestler drew the easiest path. But again as a Regional Champ, he earned his draw.

I feel it is 152 that has you jilted about the South Dearborn draws, since this wrestler beat your wrestler in SV in the semifinals at regionals. Then your wrestler got the toughest draw at 152 in the SS & both these kids are seniors. If the 152 Franklin County wrestler is your son I feel for you, but 'death draws' happen every year at every SS. Just in the bracket that the 152 Franklin County wrestler is in, the #4 ranked Brice Coleman must beat the #2 ranked & 2-time former State Placer Elliot Rodgers to advance (if he gets past your wrestler).

Edited by SIACfan

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Entire topic is a moot point if the semi-sttate had wrestlbacks. The entire philosophy of why we love wrestling so much is because in this sport bias is put to rest. With a 6 minute match every wrestler has an opportunity to earn their spot on the roster and then compete to qualify for the next level of competition.  Unfortunately here in Indiana the spectator is held above the sport. IMO  the top 4 should be representatives of their schools and families by their earned accomplishments in the tournament,  not on a formulation and a possible bad draw. 

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1 hour ago, isaiah11 said:

Entire topic is a moot point if the semi-sttate had wrestlbacks. The entire philosophy of why we love wrestling so much is because in this sport bias is put to rest. With a 6 minute match every wrestler has an opportunity to earn their spot on the roster and then compete to qualify for the next level of competition.  Unfortunately here in Indiana the spectator is held above the sport. IMO  the top 4 should be representatives of their schools and families by their earned accomplishments in the tournament,  not on a formulation and a possible bad draw. 

While most people on this forum would love to see the IHSAA adopt full wrestlebacks, I'm not sure exactly how relative that thought is in regards to someone insinuating that the SS brackets were manipulated in favor of a certain school?

Edited by SIACfan

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15 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

While most people on this forum would love to see the IHSAA adopt full wrestlebacks, I'm not sure exactly how relative that thought is in regards to someone insinuating that the SS brackets were manipulated in favor of a certain school?

Not to mention there will still be complaints about brackets. 

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52 minutes ago, isaiah11 said:

It's not about the complaints. It's about getting the best 4 kids from each semi- state. Period. 

Many of us would love to see wrestlebacks and yes they would make the draws less impactful (but would not eliminate the effects of a blind draw completely), but that topic is superfluous to the discussion within this thread.

Wildcats2020 made the statement that the entirety of the South Dearborn wrestlers who qualified for SS got favorable draws & insinuated that the brackets were intentionally manipulated to achieve this.

The statement of favorable draws is simply incorrect & the insinuation is ludicrous.

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5 hours ago, isaiah11 said:

Entire topic is a moot point if the semi-sttate had wrestlbacks. The entire philosophy of why we love wrestling so much is because in this sport bias is put to rest. With a 6 minute match every wrestler has an opportunity to earn their spot on the roster and then compete to qualify for the next level of competition.  Unfortunately here in Indiana the spectator is held above the sport. IMO  the top 4 should be representatives of their schools and families by their earned accomplishments in the tournament,  not on a formulation and a possible bad draw. 

I agree, just let wrestlebacks go on and on till everyone is happy. 

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7 hours ago, bbulldog152 said:

Also note that these formulas are made up before regionals are finalized so the ihsaa has know control where any of the wrestlers are going to end up. Some times upsets happen that could lead to a probable regional champion finishing 2nd or 3rd creating a "bad" draw for a regional champion. Not to mention if the ihsaa was going to purposely rig the brackets to help specific teams I don't think they would use their power to help a school like South Dearborn while there's numerous match ups between Warren Central and Cathedral on the way to making state therefore costing two contenders team points. Like others have said any "good" draw is luck. 

Decided to look at the "formula" pairings for the Perry Meridian #11 Regional. They are paired up with the No Montgomery #9 Regional in 6 classes (113, 120, 132, 170, 195, 285), the Pendleton Hts #10 Regional in 4 classes (106, 138, 160, 220) & the Richmond #12 Regional in 4 classes (126, 145, 152, 182).

That means that a top-notch program coming out of Perry (Warren Central-- Regional Champs) could square off in no more than 4 weight classes against the best team in the Pendleton Hts Regional (top ranked Cathedral-- Regional Champs). Guess what -- it is Warren vs Cathedral in the 1st round at all 4 possible classes.

(Mind blown!)😲

106 - WC 2nd Perry vs Cath 3rd Dickey

138 - WC 3rd Rowlett vs Cath 2nd Wilson

160 - WC 4th Taylor vs Cath 1st Slivka

220 WC 1st Mitchell vs Cath 4th Guhl

We need a math genius to tell us what are the odds of that happening.

(Plus, Bailey vs Beatty at 132 in likely in the Qtrfinals)

To me, there are no shenanigans with the IHSAA "formulas" because there are just too many moving parts. The Semistate draws are based on where you placed in the Regional plus there is some luck thrown in there too. For example, Warren's Taylor lost at the buzzer in the 160 semis last Saturday. He was just a few seconds away from clinching 2nd place at worst. Instead, he dropped down to 4th & now must wrestle Slivka right away.

It is just dumb/bad luck that Warren & Cathedral mirrored each other at all 4 of these weight classes.

 

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1 hour ago, mikemorgan said:

152 Coleman vs Rodgers ticket round 

170 McClain and Wagner in same quarter bracket as well

Thank you-- not sure how I missed those.

So that means wrestlers from both Warren & Cathedral cannot advance to BLF in those 7 weight classes. 

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1 hour ago, slice60 said:

Thank you-- not sure how I missed those.

So that means wrestlers from both Warren & Cathedral cannot advance to BLF in those 7 weight classes. 

I wasn't sure how many but I knew it was enough to make a difference in the team race. So if any teams has issues with drawings being shady it would be them. That is definitely luck of the draw

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