munges Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 New Jersey allows 24 competitors per weight to qualify for state. They also do not have the disparity between big and small school success as we do. If big and small schools had at least somewhat close in the number of state qualifiers it would be hard to argue class wrestling. 24 qualifiers for state is the answer I was looking for thank you. Also thanks everyone for not hurling insults I will now back away quietly ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Yes Madtown, it's us that doesn't understand. i know my high IQ in this argument is an outlier problem is its not that high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 once again you are just using numbers vs numbers if you had a group of 1000 people and you split them into two groups one group of 100 people and one group of 900 people the numbers will always favor the group that is larger (you then say that shows we need classes) but once again that is the way it should fall if they had a chess tournament the final 10 guys would be 9 from the large group and 1 from the small which would be comparable to the size of the group not unfair Im trying to understand Madtown Logic : So you're saying If we take a sample size of 1000 divide it into two groups of 90% vs 10% and the large group of 900 win 90% of the time, then the large group won more beacuse they had a larger group. But we have a smaller group of 10 and divide it into groups of 9 to 1 and the larger group wins 90%of the time and they won more but in a ratio of the sample size then thats fair. And that class Chessing would kill the sport and by classing it would produce less Chess All-Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Im trying to understand Madtown Logic : So you're saying If we take a sample size of 1000 divide it into two groups of 90% vs 10% and the large group of 900 win 90% of the time, then the large group won more beacuse they had a larger group. But we have a smaller group of 10 and divide it into groups of 9 to 1 and the larger group wins 90%of the time and they won more but in a ratio of the sample size then thats fair. And that class Chessing would kill the sport and by classing it would produce less Chess All-Americans. doesnt have to be chess it could be underwater basket weaving. the fact is that the percentages match the numbers now if you told me that the large group was winning 99 percent of the time there may be a concern to class the event or if that event happened to be a battle royal of 900 vs 100 (team sports) but if we had classes in indiana basketball in 1954 the movie hoosiers would never have been made (not that i care because i hate basketball just sayin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 doesnt have to be chess it could be underwater basket weaving. the fact is that the percentages match the numbers now if you told me that the large group was winning 99 percent of the time there may be a concern to class the event or if that event happened to be a battle royal of 900 vs 100 (team sports) but if we had classes in indiana basketball in 1954 the movie hoosiers would never have been made (not that i care because i hate basketball just sayin) Say we had a "Roller Derby" battle royal that started with 312 team, say we divideded the groups into 104 teams each or groups A, B and C. What would happen if Group A and B won 98.5%% of the time and Group C won 1.5% if the time. Would there be concern to class this roller derby event? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Say we had a "Roller Derby" battle royal that started with 312 team, say we divideded the groups into 104 teams each or groups A, B and C. What would happen if Group A and B won 98.5%% of the time and Group C won 1.5% if the time. Would there be concern to class this roller derby event? of course roller derby is a team event Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldManMason50 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Salinas, Great post, class wrestling is silly and unnecessary in our state. If you have ever wrestled in Indiana you understand the value of having a single class, and the work it takes to be successful. Going to other states and laughing at them because they crowned 5 state champs at each weight, knowing the legitimacy of Indiana's single class is much tougher. Creating classes takes away from our sport in Indiana, I truly hope they keep the system the way it currently is, keeping our state finals the single greatest amateur sporting spectacle there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Say we had a "Roller Derby" battle royal that started with 312 team, say we divideded the groups into 104 teams each or groups A, B and C. What would happen if Group A and B won 98.5%% of the time and Group C won 1.5% if the time. Would there be concern to class this roller derby event? I think what madtown is getting at is that if you have 2 classes for wrestling, while you would have half of the schools in one class and half of the schools in the other, based on the enrollment numbers you would have something like 75% of the students in the one class and 25% in the other. So it's reasonable to expect close to 75% of the state qualifiers to come from the bigger class since they have 75% of the talent pool to draw from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Salinas, Great post, class wrestling is silly and unnecessary in our state. If you have ever wrestled in Indiana you understand the value of having a single class, and the work it takes to be successful. Going to other states and laughing at them because they crowned 5 state champs at each weight, knowing the legitimacy of Indiana's single class is much tougher. Creating classes takes away from our sport in Indiana, I truly hope they keep the system the way it currently is, keeping our state finals the single greatest amateur sporting spectacle there is. im glad someone understands doesnt all have to be about numbers how many indiana guys go to camps and kick the crap out of state placers from other states even though they never made it to state themselves. i have myself had this happen and have heard of others in the same boat. when i was in high school i wrestled a two time runner up from south oldham KY and trashed him. not once was i ever thinking "man i should move to KY so i can be a state champion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I think what madtown is getting at is that if you have 2 classes for wrestling, while you would have half of the schools in one class and half of the schools in the other, based on the enrollment numbers you would have something like 75% of the students in the one class and 25% in the other. So it's reasonable to expect close to 75% of the state qualifiers to come from the bigger class since they have 75% of the talent pool to draw from. thanks man math is so crazy sometimes oh no its pretty straight forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Humble Jr. Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Is there any way you can class schools by school color? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Is there any way you can class schools by school color? No IHSAA is going to start classing by move-ins after 5th grade....Class A = 0 move ins, Class AA= 1-2 move ins, Class AAA 3+ move ins. I got this from a reliable source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 No IHSAA is going to start classing by move-ins after 5th grade....Class A = 0 move ins, Class AA= 1-2 move ins, Class AAA 3+ move ins. I got this from a reliable source. You're really sticking with that one, aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 My only question would be what if the bigger schools per class start to dominate, are they then moved up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Currently, according to NFHS data, 320 of our 412 schools offer wrestling which is an increase of 10 or so over the past 4-5 years (if the data is accurate). During that same time period the actual number of participants has gone down by about 100. How many of the 80 or so schools w/o wrestling are just too small to support a program? What is the reasonable number of students required to support a program? Is there any data to suggest that the number of wrestlers increase when two or more small schools consolidate (i.e. school is now large enough to offer wrestling)? What is more important? The gift of the state wrestling finals or the gift of wrestling itself? How do you bring more kids to wrestling? The idea to class the individual tournament has nothing to do with the selfish idea of what a fan wants and everything to do with the desire to bring more kids into the sport. You have to divorce yourself from the love of the specific event when debating the merits of class wrestling. The merits should be debated solely on what is best for the sport of wrestling. Stating the obvious here, but I would suggest that what is best for wrestling is more participation. I am not sure anyone knows for sure but class wrestling probably won't hurt participation. How about some ideas to increase participation? If you don't think class wrestling gets it done, give some alternate solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Currently, according to NFHS data, 320 of our 412 schools offer wrestling which is an increase of 10 or so over the past 4-5 years (if the data is accurate). During that same time period the actual number of participants has gone down by about 100. How many of the 80 or so schools w/o wrestling are just too small to support a program? What is the reasonable number of students required to support a program? Is there any data to suggest that the number of wrestlers increase when two or more small schools consolidate (i.e. school is now large enough to offer wrestling)? What is more important? The gift of the state wrestling finals or the gift of wrestling itself? How do you bring more kids to wrestling? The idea to class the individual tournament has nothing to do with the selfish idea of what a fan wants and everything to do with the desire to bring more kids into the sport. You have to divorce yourself from the love of the specific event when debating the merits of class wrestling. The merits should be debated solely on what is best for the sport of wrestling. Stating the obvious here, but I would suggest that what is best for wrestling is more participation. I am not sure anyone knows for sure but class wrestling probably won't hurt participation. How about some ideas to increase participation? If you don't think class wrestling gets it done, give some alternate solutions. Sadly according to some they would rather have 10 schools with wrestling and a single class championship than have 400 schools with wrestling and a multiple class championship. See this post for a class hater saying if you ain't good just drop the sport http://indianamat.com/messageboard/index.php/topic,30299.msg204349.html#msg204349 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 What is more important? The gift of the state wrestling finals or the gift of wrestling itself? How do you bring more kids to wrestling? The idea to class the individual tournament has nothing to do with the selfish idea of what a fan wants and everything to do with the desire to bring more kids into the sport. You have to divorce yourself from the love of the specific event when debating the merits of class wrestling. The merits should be debated solely on what is best for the sport of wrestling. Well said. No one is debating whether or not the current state finals are awesome. The debate is what's better for the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 i want to see that classed wrestling helps in any way??? how about the teams invited and were successful at the ihswca team state duals? how have these teams schools responded by way of adding wrestlers or general support by the community? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Buscowrestling confirmed that he is seeing only positives. I would assume that means numbers as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 i just noticed that i have set to record the iowa D1 state championships on directv why only the D1 i thought that multiple classes would get more exposure for small schools??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 You don't get it do you? You win the discussion, if you aren't going to attend there is no way this is a good idea. I was totally wrong sorry for dragging this out so much. You were right the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAJR Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 The mirror has spoken... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 You don't get it do you? You win the discussion, if you aren't going to attend there is no way this is a good idea. I was totally wrong sorry for dragging this out so much. You were right the whole time. kicking and screaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 kicking and screaming You were right all along. The best argument you can make is whether or not YOU will be attending a classed event. When you stated that you would not attend the event I realized how dumb it was. Sorry for wasting your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 You were right all along. The best argument you can make is whether or not YOU will be attending a classed event. When you stated that you would not attend the event I realized how dumb it was. Sorry for wasting your time. i never argued the point that me being there would change anything i go to state for the emotion if you take that away i can watch every match from home without spending a couple hundred dollars in a weekend if there are wrestlers there from madison of course i will be there though you acting like a baby is pretty entertaining think we could put that under the lights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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