Lets not ruin the gift

[Y2CJ41]

I am getting impatient with madtown's stats so I came up with my own

 

Based on the last four years, the last two columns are in a two class system.

 

Two notes:

Mater Dei is in the biggest class for both

Muncie South is grouped as Muncie Central

 

[table]

[/td][td]All 3A 2A 1A 2A 1A

Schools 313 104 104 105 156 157

Teams w/ a state qualifier 193 87 65 41 120 73

Teams w/ a state placer 131 73 42 16 96 35

Teams w/ a state qualifier 61.66% 83.65% 62.50% 39.05% 76.92% 46.50%

Teams w/ a state placer 41.85% 70.19% 40.38% 15.24% 61.54% 22.29%

[/table]

 

[vito pepperelli]

 

wow. I guess we need to do a study on this. How many kids, and how many placers, and really look into the future of indiana wrestling as a class sport......... because when wrestlers are the same size and same age(roughly) its still not fair, so lets make it easier for some kids to accomplish something, that will not really mean anything anyhow. How about this..........work harder and do the best you can! And if dont reach your goals, well...... be happy with what you got and make the most of it. Thats life. I appreciate everyones stance, but no number, no arguement will ever lead me to believe that class wrestling in indiana is going to benefit anyone. especially the athletes. If anything, it will produce less competitiveness in our wrestlers, and will reward more athletes for accomplishing less. I say no way!

 

+1  Keep Indiana classless (pun intended)

[GrecoCoach]

This isn't a stat, but it is a situation that really happens...

 

A prominent DII college is considering 2 wrestlers.

  A) 3-time small school state champ from Illinois

  3-time state qualifier, 6th place twice from Indiana

 

Which do you think they will spend more time recruiting and offer more scholarship money to?  After all the commitments have been made, the Indiana wrestler majors the Illinois wrestler at the IN/IL duals.  This is a true story that happened to me.

 

The smaller colleges in Indiana understand our system and actively recruit state qualifiers and semi state qualifiers.  However, there are a lot of other colleges in other states that could get very good wrestlers from Indiana, but they don't recruit here because they don't understand how tough our one class system is and don't have the time and money to try to figure out who is college wrestling material and who isn't.

 

2 classes will help get our better wrestlers' names out there to get more offers.  (I agree with Joe that 3 classes are too many.)

 

I've been told by multiple sources "in the know" that say we can fit 8 mats on the floor at Banker's Life.  If that's the case, we could have 16 big school wrestlers and 12 small school wrestlers per weight class, with almost* full wrestlebacks to 3rd that would add very little time to the sessions on Friday night (1 hour) and Saturday morning (1 hour).  With 2 classes, there can still be exciting intros for the finals with only 2 matches going on at the same time.  The atmosphere wouldn't suffer as much as some people think.

*Big school class would have 1 round of "follow the leader".  If the guy who beat you first round wins the next round, you're in the consolations but if he loses the next match, you're out.

 

I'm still tweeking the details, but by the number of matches per mat, it is feasible.

[Y2CJ41]

To piggy back on what GrecoCoach said, not many out of state DII, DIII or NAIA coaches come to our state finals.

 

Two reason for that

1. Only 224 kids to see, they can see 3X that in Michigan, Ohio and Illinois

2. They only get to see one match out of half the kids at state. Many coaches actually look at kids who lost early and wrestle back for 3rd. It shows character and other traits coaches want.

 

 

[KarlHungus]

Using 14 per team assumes that a first year wrestler who is only in the line-up because they pulled him out of the hallways to fill a spot is equal to a wrestler who had to beat out 4-5 other wrestlers for his spot.

 

14 per weight is not an accurate starting point.  But neither is using total school enrollment.  The best numbers to start with would be total team members on the roster.  That would account for successful small schools and struggling big schools.  Unfortunately that is difficult to figure out for 312 schools, unless it is something that can be found on the NWCA body fat testing database.

 

FYI - I am slightly pro-class.  To me, it has nothing to do with these statistics that can be manipulated to whatever result you want.  It is about increasing our national recruiting from D2, D3, & NAIA colleges.

 

I agree with you coach, my point was a needle to those that say everyone starts with an equal opportunity for success in a single class system.  Getting kids to wrestle at the next level and then return to coach their kids and their kids friends would be the single most effective way to improve the overall quality of wrestling in the state.

 

I would guess 90% of the football and basketball head coaches in the state have experience playing for at least some time in college. 

[Madtownxwrestler]

According to Maligned: state qualifier numbers are below,  and your data is a little off. But like you said,"its not all about the numbers and you hate it when people change the numbers for their own agenda."  But here's the

State qualifiers

3A= 152 or 68%

2a =60 or 27%

1A= 12 or 5%

 

Ill go with your population numbers 

1A has 12% of the population but only gets 5% of the qualifiers if you use the right numbers.  Dang, looks like your mathematical argument fails again.

 

Maybe you should do the math for yourself instead of using y2's lies. ..EMD is a small school

[Madtownxwrestler]

I am getting impatient with madtown's stats so I came up with my own

 

Based on the last four years, the last two columns are in a two class system.

 

Two notes:

Mater Dei is in the biggest class for both

Muncie South is grouped as Muncie Central

 

[table]

[/td][td]All3A2A1A2A1A

Schools313104104105156157

Teams w/ a state qualifier19387654112073

Teams w/ a state placer1317342169635

Teams w/ a state qualifier61.66%83.65%62.50%39.05%76.92%46.50%

Teams w/ a state placer41.85%70.19%40.38%15.24%61.54%22.29%

[/table]

 

Using the number of schools as a starting point is a silly way to do things considering there are nearly the same amount of schools in all three classes but there are over 150,000 more students at the 3A as to 1A

[OldGoatGrappler]

If classing is all about getting kids scholarships, we should then class academics as well.

 

3A = No additional GPA bonus

2A = 1 pt. GPA bonus

1A = 2 pt. GPA bonus

 

So a kid with a 3.0 GPA at a 2A school can now put on his transcript that he is a 4.0 GPA student.  This will open up a huge number of academic scholarships.  Just think, with 1A students even average kids with a 2.0 can now also say they are a 4.0 student.

 

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

If classing is all about getting kids scholarships, we should then class academics as well.

 

3A = No additional GPA bonus

2A = 1 pt. GPA bonus

1A = 2 pt. GPA bonus

 

So a kid with a 3.0 GPA at a 2A school can now put on his transcript that he is a 4.0 GPA student.  This will open up a huge number of academic scholarships.  Just think, with 1A students even average kids with a 2.0 can now also say they are a 4.0 student.

 

 

 

That would be the best analogy ever except there are thousands of kids that get 4.0 GPAs every year, not one like in wrestling. 

[Y2CJ41]

Using the number of schools as a starting point is a silly way to do things considering there are nearly the same amount of schools in all three classes but there are over 150,000 more students at the 3A as to 1A

Quit posting, I want to see your stats!

[OldGoatGrappler]

Maybe we could award "Honorary" State Championship medals based on class each year: 

 

3A - Zero (0) Honorary State Champs

2A - Seven (7) Honorary State Champs

1A - Fourteen (14) Honorary State Champs

 

These would be much like the honorary degrees given by universities - like when Obama got a degree from Notre Dame for giving a speech there.  These State champs could use these "championship medals" to lure the 1,000s of unsuspecting college coaches who have no idea how a classless system works into recruiting them and giving them full-ride scholarships.

 

Additionally, we could award "Honorary" State Team Championships based on tenure:

 

Every five (5) years, an Honorary State Team Championship will be awarded to all member schools of the IHSAA who have not received an actual (aka "real") team championship during the proceeding five (5) years.  Member schools are entitled to a state championship every five (5) years based on tenure. 

 

 

[RAJR]

Maybe we could award "Honorary" State Championship medals based on class each year: 

 

3A - Zero (0) Honorary State Champs

2A - Seven (7) Honorary State Champs

1A - Fourteen (14) Honorary State Champs

 

These would be much like the honorary degrees given by universities - like when Obama got a degree from Notre Dame for giving a speech there.  These State champs could use these "championship medals" to lure the 1,000s of unsuspecting college coaches who have no idea how a classless system works into recruiting them and giving them full-ride scholarships.

 

Additionally, we could award "Honorary" State Team Championships based on tenure:

 

Every five (5) years, an Honorary State Team Championship will be awarded to all member schools of the IHSAA who have not received an actual (aka "real") team championship during the proceeding five (5) years.  Member schools are entitled to a state championship every five (5) years based on tenure.

 

Wow, 1000's of coaches, I guess the sport has grown more than reported.  But since most states are classed, you may be right about them not knowing about classless systems.  Funny thing, I have had several conversations with college coaches and they all said the same thing, why not class, class one sport class them all and they attend other state tournaments because they see more kids.  Oh, and in many ways academics is classed but that's another topic.  Maybe the mirror will break...

[maligned]

Maybe you should do the math for yourself instead of using y2's lies. ..EMD is a small school

 

You have to stop with this.  I am on the fence on the class issue in general, and I think you bring about some interesting statistics--but EMD is NOT a 1A school.  They compete at 3A.  I've built mathematical models to project team quality level based on school enrollment and vice versa (school enrollment based on quality level)--either direction EMD is, by definition, a clear mathematical outlier.  They canNOT be considered in any statistics that are enrollment based.  That's why they compete in 3A.  Cathedral is not a 4A school in football, even though its enrollment is less than some 4A schools.  They're a 5A school and any college prospects they produce would be counted in the 5A category.  The same type of scenario is true of EMD in this case. 

[KarlHungus]

You have to stop with this.  I am on the fence on the class issue in general, and I think you bring about some interesting statistics--but EMD is NOT a 1A school.  They compete at 3A.  I've built mathematical models to project team quality level based on school enrollment and vice versa (school enrollment based on quality level)--either direction EMD is, by definition, a clear mathematical outlier.  They canNOT be considered in any statistics that are enrollment based.  That's why they compete in 3A.  Cathedral is not a 4A school in football, even though its enrollment is less than some 4A schools.  They're a 5A school and any college prospects they produce would be counted in the 5A category.  The same type of scenario is true of EMD in this case. 

 

I tried pointing this out to the Mad Man earlier but he was having none of it.

[Madtownxwrestler]

You have to stop with this.  I am on the fence on the class issue in general, and I think you bring about some interesting statistics--but EMD is NOT a 1A school.  They compete at 3A.  I've built mathematical models to project team quality level based on school enrollment and vice versa (school enrollment based on quality level)--either direction EMD is, by definition, a clear mathematical outlier.  They canNOT be considered in any statistics that are enrollment based.  That's why they compete in 3A.  Cathedral is not a 4A school in football, even though its enrollment is less than some 4A schools.  They're a 5A school and any college prospects they produce would be counted in the 5A category.  The same type of scenario is true of EMD in this case.

 

Everyone says they should be treated like an outlier yet they continue to put their numbers with the big schools.  I've been told to look up outlier.  I looked up how  statiticians deal with outliers and I never once saw them put the numbers in a complete different category which is what you are doing when you put their numbers with the 3As. 

[Fabio Jr.]

Everyone says they should be treated like an outlier yet they continue to put their numbers with the big schools.  I've been told to look up outlier.  I looked up how  statiticians deal with outliers and I never once saw them put the numbers in a complete different category which is what you are doing when you put their numbers with the 3As.

 

Im not a statisical genius by anymeans...if you want a sweet for loop im your guy but as per the internet:

 

Naive interpretation of statistics derived from data sets that include outliers may be misleading. For example, if one is calculating the average temperature of 10 objects in a room, and nine of them are between 20 and 25 degrees Celsius, but an oven is at 175 °C, the median of the data will be between 20 and 25 °C but the mean temperature will be between 35.5 and 40 °C. In this case, the median better reflects the temperature of a randomly sampled object than the mean; naively interpreting the mean as "a typical sample", equivalent to the median, is incorrect. As illustrated in this case, outliers may be indicative of data points that belong to a different population than the rest of the sample set.

 

this doesnt mean population as in number of people but statitistal population as in a subset of data figures (IE class)

[Y2CJ41]

Notes:

Mater Dei listed in 3A/2A

Muncie South is grouped with Muncie Central

 

[table]

[/td] Enrollment Percentage Totals

3 Classes Qualifiers Placers

3A 188371 62.79% 593 66.18% 318 70.98%

2A 73946 24.65% 226 25.22% 106 23.66%

1A 37679 12.56% 77 8.59% 24 5.36%

299996

2 Classes [td]

2A 231889 77.30% 728 81.25% 376 83.93%

1A 68107 22.70% 168 18.75% 72 16.07%

[/table]

 

[Madtownxwrestler]

Im not a statisical genius by anymeans...if you want a sweet for loop im your guy but as per the internet:

 

Naive interpretation of statistics derived from data sets that include outliers may be misleading. For example, if one is calculating the average temperature of 10 objects in a room, and nine of them are between 20 and 25 degrees Celsius, but an oven is at 175 °C, the median of the data will be between 20 and 25 °C but the mean temperature will be between 35.5 and 40 °C. In this case, the median better reflects the temperature of a randomly sampled object than the mean; naively interpreting the mean as "a typical sample", equivalent to the median, is incorrect. As illustrated in this case, outliers may be indicative of data points that belong to a different population than the rest of the sample set.

 

this doesnt mean population as in number of people but statitistal population as in a subset of data figures (IE class)

 

the problem with that is the mean would probably be zero for all three classes if that were the case.  since the number you are looking at is how many state qualifiers each team had there would be allot of teams that have zero.  id imagine even the 3A would end up with a zero in that situation

[bog190]

 

the problem with that is the mean would probably be zero for all three classes if that were the case.  since the number you are looking at is how many state qualifiers each team had there would be allot of teams that have zero.  id imagine even the 3A would end up with a zero in that situation

 

Are you saying the mean number of state qualifiers per school would be zero in all three classes?

 

[Madtownxwrestler]

Are you saying the mean number of state qualifiers per school would be zero in all three classes?

 

yea that is probably the case

[Madtownxwrestler]

sorry  i meant median  that is the way they deal with outliers in some instances  but for example if schools number of state qualifiers

 

8,3,3,3,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0    the median is a zero    that would probably be the case with all three classes

[bog190]

sorry  i meant median  that is the way they deal with outliers in some instances  but for example if schools number of state qualifiers

 

8,3,3,3,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0    the median is a zero    that would probably be the case with all three classes

 

Would you include Cathedral's football stats with 4A as their enrollment suggests, or 5A where they compete?

[Madtownxwrestler]

Would you include Cathedral's football stats with 4A as their enrollment suggests, or 5A where they compete?

 

Not sure why you quoted there bit if you are looking at stats by class (which is based on school size not choice) then it should go to the class their school size puts them in

[bog190]

Not sure why you quoted there bit if you are looking at stats by class (which is based on school size not choice) then it should go to the class their school size puts them in

 

So even though they compete in 5A you would include them in 4A?

[Madtownxwrestler]

So even though they compete in 5A you would include them in 4A?

 

The only way I see it logical for their stats to go towards the class they competed in instead of their actual size would be if schools couldn't play regular season games against schools that compete in a different class