RAJR Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Stop comparing INDIVIDUAL wrestling tournaments to basketball and baseball which is a TEAM sport only Stop drawing logically unsound conclusions. i didn't directly compare them, it was in response to earlier posts that basketball was ruined when classed. Funny thing is that most of the student-athletes and smaller schools don't think that at all. Obviously, the IHSAA considers wrestling an individual sport which is why it isn't classed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Then why did their coaches vote to add another class recently? Until last year we spent more time wrestling in IL than in IN. And in 8 years of wrestling in IL I've never heard anyone say they favored the class system for the individual state tournament. And Scholar I also heard the same from 3 of the NCAA AA that are now coaching that you've mentioned in your post. So.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Until last year we spent more time wrestling in IL than in IN. And in 8 years of wrestling in IL I've never heard anyone say they favored the class system for the individual state tournament. And Scholar I also heard the same from 3 of the NCAA AA that are now coaching that you've mentioned in your post. So.. Again why did a majority of the coaches vote very recently to add another class? When they added another class to Illinois it was driven by their coaches association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Yea but everyone knows the only reason coaches coach is to say they coached a state champ....illinois coaches just made it 33% easier. Sarcasm alert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 OK, to take all sarcasm aside. I will ask the question. Have there been studies that have proven that adding Class wrestling grows the sport? I am very curious, because we ALL have opinions, and post them. As you know I am not for Class Wrestling. But if there are studies that prove it not only grows the sport, brings in a larger fan base, and revenue then I am more inclined to be opened minded, and others might be as well? I do not know of any studies mainly because most states were classed 30 to 50 years ago. Also in order to do a thorough study it would probably involve 10-20 years worth of data. When you get that many years you also need to factor in things such as school consolidation, population trends, technology, etc. There is a difference between Somebody on hear saying that well of course it will just look at the facts that more wrestlers, parents, friends and family would attend the state finals and other events leading up to that. That may be true, but what about the Casual fans with no horses in the race, are many going to be turned off by a watered down version of the State Finals? In all honesty, I think the people that say they wouldn't go if we had classes are just doing it for show. If those people are that selfish they really are not true wrestling fans anyway. Even with the casual fans that might be lost, I think they would easily be made up with the new fans that are following their kids. Plus we would be able to create newer casual fans that would possibly have a few more kids from their local schools on a regular basis. Also, does anyone have actual statistics regarding class basketball in our state, because I would think that would be a very relevant comparison. Here is the total attendance for the basketball tournament 2008 427,974 2007 456,960 2006 474,881 2005 497,266 2004 475,023 2003 474,088 2002 438,430 2001 457,010 2000 387,710 1999 429,140 1998 434,752(first year multi-class -352,728 fans in one year) 1997 786,024 (last season of single class) 1996 786,852 1995 812,859 1994 775,670 1993 839,545 1992 861,124 1991: 903,430 1990: 981,395-Damon Bailey's senior year 1989: 965,042 1988: 940,838 1987: 916,872 1986: 946,705 1985: 994,899 1984: 1,036,261 1983: 1,064,987 1982: 1,076,886 1981: 1,064,764 One thing many people see is that there was an upward trend and a huge loss centered around Damon Bailey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Again why did a majority of the coaches vote very recently to add another class? When they added another class to Illinois it was driven by their coaches association. I don't know. I'm just sayin.. competitors don't favor it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 This may be a case of that crazy "move in" situation where people happen to move into the same school at the same time. What percentage of 3A and 2A schools were represented...not the number of wrestlers but how many teams out of that 105 were represented at each level. Anyone have any of these numbers or do we just skip over a good point. What percentage of schools were represented...not participants but schools?? I wonder, have the teams that have competed in team state the last few seasons in the 1A and 2A seen a incline, decline or stayed the same in the number of kids they are coaching? That might be a good indicator if class wrestling is starting to work or not. Anyone who had a team participate got any input as to if their numbers spiked?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 And the numbers game is out there are probably more kids that quit on the large schools teams than the are total for the small schools. Get full roster reports to get accurate numbers. The more kids you have the better odds for a state qualifier. That doesn't mean an individual had a better chance as oppose to another individual. That means one group with more people had a higher number than another group with less people. Simple math not a disadvantage for the individual though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Also quit manipulating the numbers Y2. EMD is a small school and that's where there numbers should be. I'd like to see number reports on actual roster and on actual schools enrollment. Let's face it, every student is a potential wrestler so the enrollment numbers should also be looked at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 my thoughts have always been if a school is 10 times larger they have 10 times the chance of producing good wrestlers...that is part of it but some schools are more successful than others regardless of size. Why is this ? programs and coaching imo and most good coaches at small schools don't stay there long. So that means you should support a classed tournament. You are mentioning great reasons why small schools are at a severe disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoxrs Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I could not be more against moving to a class system for the individual tournament. I am the only wrestler in my schools history to wrestle in a finals match. I can assure you I would never trade a true runner up medal for a watered down gold. For me wrestling has always been about being the best. I find it offensive to think that making more people feel special is the answer. True exceptionalism is by its very nature unique. Moving to a class system would not make these small schools better at wrestling, it would only succeed in removing the competition. Instead we need to support the small schools, get the interest up, and push them to get better. I dont know how you walk away from the finals match last week and think it was a failure. What we have here is pretty awesome. I think we are looking for the easy way out when it comes to Indiana not measuring up to Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Illinois. But even by your own argemts we would never be able to match those states in wrestling strictly based on our population. Maybe we should make freestyle class based as well. It would only be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Y2 continues to look silly when he tries to twist what people say. If it's so unfair for smaller schools they why don't big tournaments like the toc or dapper Dan or senior nationals class their tournament? Why isn't iswa state for all three styles classed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearless fly Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 So that means you should support a classed tournament. You are mentioning great reasons why small schools are at a severe disadvantage. just explaining the numbers are close to where they should be. how is moving to a class system going to keep good coaches at a small school ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 just explaining the numbers are close to where they should be. how is moving to a class system going to keep good coaches at a small school ? The same way Larry Wright stays at Sheridan or Bill Sharpe stayed at Jimtown. When coaches can find success at the small school level they will have a higher chance of staying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 A more relevant question is 'Why does nearly every other state class?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navy80 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 A more relevant question is 'Why does nearly every other state class?' Good question. and why hasn't California changed to class wrestling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 A more relevant question is 'Why does nearly every other state class?' Some states such as Pennsylvania and Ohio have such depth that classing wrestling doesn't water down the field near as much as it would Indiana. Most of the states that class wrestling probably follow a class formula for all sports because from the list Y2 posted it looks like 90 percent of the States that are classed shouldn't be. Here is the link everyone should take a look at the ENTIRE list.... indianamat.com/stuff/statebreakdown.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Good question. and why hasn't California changed to class wrestling? Better yet NJ. Y2 states they don't need to because most schools are the same size. But I thought the argument was more champions mean more exposure and more interest in the sport. So why is wrestling in NJ not suffering? With that being Saudi have to honestly say I am not sure what is best for wrestling in Indiana. I know what I love, but would give up my desires for the best of the sport and the kids. I just think arguments on both sides are speculation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldfat119 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 ok so i came from a small school, i think the biggest problem with small schools is traveling to clubs and tourneys after season, ie, minium jobs,$, travel, etc. I know because i traveled the state hauling my little brother and another kid around, I Loved it, but obviously it takes time & $,, with that said,, im "classless" IL, IW, OH, ect just doesnt seem to have that special feel. Now one question as i think abt small school state placers, i know the agrument, but is there any data of state placers between "small" schools and "big" schools Per Capita of students? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Better yet NJ. Y2 states they don't need to because most schools are the same size. But I thought the argument was more champions mean more exposure and more interest in the sport. So why is wrestling in NJ not suffering? New Jersey is an interesting state. Probably five years ago I asked someone from New Jersey if they had a big discrepancy between the small and big schools in terms of state qualifiers and champ. Surprisingly, at least to me, he said no and that actually that year they had more what we would call 2A(out of 4 classes) state champs than any other class. Obviously I was mind boggled by it and decided to look deeper into why it was. New Jersey has about the same number of schools with wrestling as Indiana does, so that make for an easier comparison also. The things I found were interesting. New Jersey does not have as many "mega schools" as Indiana has New Jersey does not have as many "really tiny schools" as Indiana has The average New Jersey school with wrestling is 925 students, while Indiana has an average of 967. The more alarming statistic is that the standard deviation for New Jersey is 468 while Indiana is 747. If you calculate that out it means most New Jersey schools are between 450 and 1400 students, while Indiana is between 219 and 1714 students. One other reason is the size of New Jersey compared to Indiana. Even at a small school the access to the big city for club/camp training is way easier than in Indiana. Standard deviation definition in case anyone wants to know: In statistics and probability theory, the standard deviation (SD) (represented by the Greek letter sigma, σ) shows how much variation or dispersion from the average exists.[1] A low standard deviation indicates that the data points tend to be very close to the mean (also called expected value); a high standard deviation indicates that the data points are spread out over a large range of values. With that being said have to honestly say I am not sure what is best for wrestling in Indiana. I know what I love, but would give up my desires for the best of the sport and the kids. I just think arguments on both sides are speculation You can call it speculation, but I can tell you from my personal experience there is a HUGE difference. Being at Garrett for 10 years and now at Carroll they are worlds a part even though they are 15 miles from each other. Some things I can explain, but some you just need to see on a first hand basis. There is a reason I wasn't looking to go to Eastside, Central Noble, Churubusco, etc and why when I jumped ship from my alma mater I went to a BIG school. The same can be said for many coaches. Even Coach Tonte at Perry was at Tri-West before he was at Perry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 ok so i came from a small school, i think the biggest problem with small schools is traveling to clubs and tourneys after season, ie, minium jobs,$, travel, etc. I know because i traveled the state hauling my little brother and another kid around, I Loved it, but obviously it takes time & $,, with that said,, im "classless" IL, IW, OH, ect just doesnt seem to have that special feel. Now one question as i think abt small school state placers, i know the agrument, but is there any data of state placers between "small" schools and "big" schools Per Capita of students? Quick question before I do the per capita statistics. Doesn't a one class system insinuate that everyone is equal and whether you are from a big school or small school you have an equal shot at state? In a classed system the governing body is saying "yes big schools have advantages over small ones and thus we will separate them," correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 if indiana goes to classes for individual tournament you can wave bye bye to bankers life and say hello to Joe Schmo high school gymnasium going to Joe Schmo high school to win a state ... DIVISION title this weekend man that sounds pretty special doesnt it??? ive been watching multi class state tilte matches on youtube and its so boring california does it like we do with the lights off except they raise the mat on a stage thats how it should be the money situation is something i get. so now instead of kids getting better and earning a state qualification it is now given to them and they will have their whole family spending hundreds of dollars watching them at state yet their still the same kid they would have been b4 but that money could be used to send them to camps to actually make them better. i can see that better wrestlers isnt the goal of the guys who want class wrestling though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Quick question before I do the per capita statistics. Doesn't a one class system insinuate that everyone is equal and whether you are from a big school or small school you have an equal shot at state? In a classed system the governing body is saying "yes big schools have advantages over small ones and thus we will separate them," correct? yes a one class system means everyone is equal and dont forget to count schools by size and not the class they chose to wrestle in for team state duals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 if indiana goes to classes for individual tournament you can wave bye bye to bankers life and say hello to Joe Schmo high school gymnasium going to Joe Schmo high school to win a state ... DIVISION title this weekend man that sounds pretty special doesnt it??? ridiculous scare tactic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 yes a one class system means everyone is equal and dont forget to count schools by size and not the class they chose to wrestle in for team state duals Yes please do, because the outlier that is MD really gives an accurate read on the health of wrestling in the low enrollment schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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