Fabio Jr. Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 so NUWAY is killing wrestling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Obama is since he is a basketball fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 So I can take that as a yes to my previous inquiry...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I thought MattM said MTV was killing wrestling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 1983: ISWA starts offering freestyle(fs)/greco(gr) tourneys. Attendance low. ISWA viewed as outsider. Was Indiana an AAU wrestling domionated state at this time period? I remember when I was younger I would buy an AAU card, not necessarily an ISWA card... but I am starting to get up there in age... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 In Indiana, could the recent success of Angel, Reece, Andrew in folkstyle and others who have won a NCAA title or earned ALL-American status be hurting freestyle? Kids grow up seeing them win and place and earn prestige in folkstyle events, while not seeing the fanfare the international events in freestyle that they compete in during the rest of their careers. If the young wrestlers are looking up to wrestlers who are great folkstyle wrestlers then isnt it likely they will want to follow that? I know all those wrestlers are great freestyle wrestlers, but freestyle wrestlers seem to really only get celebrated if the win an Olympic medal... and that is a rare feat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Those three all have extensive backgrounds in freestyle and greco. They were all multiple time All-Americans at Fargo and very high on the World Team ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Hull Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Parents take their kids out of state for better/more competition. So the issue to me is simply getting more kids to wrestle in Indiana. Desperate times call for desperate measures: Class Indiana wrestling. I for one was extremely against this idea as the ONLY state champion my year. This was something I held my head up high about, was proud of when comparing Indiana to other states, and especially wrestling another classed state champ from around the country after I tech fall him. Now, as our beautiful sport is declining in a multiple areas, for the past two or three years I have begun to change my tune. We can all agree the world is changing and I fear if we don't adapt we will get left behind. I do not believe classing wrestling is the cure-all, but I do think it will make a huge difference in regards to participation across the board. The quantity will push the quality. And for those hard-up, maybe have a Tournament of Champions where all the champs can wrestle each other. My theory: it is true the coach's efforts to push the sport (folkstyle, freestyle and greco) plays a significant part in wrestling throughout the year. But a coach can only do so much. Success breeds success. I have seen coaches at small schools bang their heads against the wall to build a top level program. But without the tools, money, athletes, admin support, excitement, success, etc...they know they their attempts are futile, especially when compared to the Perry Meridians and Apple Valleys of the world. The best they can do is just that - their best. Get a few studs down to state, maybe fill a full roster, etc. It's all relative but the success is limited. On the other hand, Adams Central just recently won the team state title for their class. I'm not sure of the previous level of support wrestling had at the school between the administrators, athletes, etc. But I would be willing to bet $1 that this support and recognition went up after their state title. AS A COACH, this also makes it easier to both recruit and keep kids around more because of the success. Consequently, i feel if Indiana were to class individual wrestling, this would create the same effect. Of course this is easier said than done and I understand I am in the minority here. But I do think this will help our participation numbers across the state, as well as putting more people in the stands, when more programs and wrestlers get a chance to gain some real recognition. In the grand scheme of things not everyone will win a state title anyway, and in college state title's don't even matter. Most coaches I know, if not all of them, fell short of their competitive goals as well. My thoughts are, as a coach, our real goal is to use the sport to help our athletes become positive members of society as most will fall short of greatness. But the pursuit of greatness is still the goal. Now, with that said, in regards to the original post, I believe that when we have more wrestlers participating in the sport, and more kids achieving success, we will have more kids wrestling in the summer. And when we have more kids wrestling in the summer, we can afford to have kids wrestling in-state, out-of-state, etc. Are coaches vital to a wrestler and programs success? Absolutely. But putting the responsibility solely on the shoulders of the coaches is unfair, especially if they have inherited small numbers, unsupportive admin, unwilling parents, wrong school culture, etc. It would be interesting to see the numbers of other states regarding pre- vs. post-classing? Lastly, and maybe someone can help me out here, but a shortened F&G season is detrimental to their growth. Obviously extending the F&G season would help. Keeping in the mind IOC decisions could ultimately make or break F&G in the U.S. for good I fear, why is it that we cannot hold Folkstyle state a week or two after IHSAA state? Nevertheless, just my 2 cents. Stay blessed guys.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I am not a proponent of NUWAY, although I appreciate the manner in which they run their events. This efficient event model has been adopted by a majority of wrestling organizations well beyond nuway. Saying I am a pitch-man for nuway lacks nuance of the matter. It is also the exactly xenophobic(suffering from xenophobia; having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign.) attitude that placed Indiana into its current set of issues. Long ago, catholics were told not to read the bible. The only reason they were told so was because catholic church leaders did not want to be like the protestants who consistently read the bible. There was no real reason. They just had to be different. Sometimes our xenophobia in Indiana wrestling is not really based on anything legitimate, simply a desire to be different. And it has comeback to bite us; particularly in the area of local tourney depletion and lack of adopting modern pairing/tournament scheduling techniques. I do not believe folkstyle is evil. I like folkstyle. From a historical perspective, I simply believe the data shows the introduction of iswa folkstyle unintentionally decimated fs/gr. In the US, most people just naturally will flock to folkstyle over fs/gr when give the choice. Now that only folkstyle is left as a reasonable option, people are fleeing the state to find better competition. I don't like it. But I can acknowledge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 We also need to ask ourselves what will the future of wrestling be? Not in terms of fs, gr, folk, or some mma alternative. But in terms of what kind of kids will be able to find success. Will we be like tennis where only the children of the privilege has the resources to travel out of state or be in a famous academy can succeed? The destruction of the local tourney will only widen the gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyandky Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Imo...sitting in a crammed gym for 8 to 12+ hours is a big part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 We also need to ask ourselves what will the future of wrestling be? Not in terms of fs, gr, folk, or some mma alternative. But in terms of what kind of kids will be able to find success. Will we be like tennis where only the children of the privilege has the resources to travel out of state or be in a famous academy can succeed? The destruction of the local tourney will only widen the gap. This is perfectly put! The death of local tournaments will hurt the regional qualifiers and below as they are not going to want to travel out of state and spend a couple hundred bucks to go two and bbq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Imo...sitting in a crammed gym for 8 to 12+ hours is a big part of it. People are still doing that at "national" tournaments. However they get less complaints due to the competition level and bragging rights of my weight class had X hundred kids in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 This is perfectly put! The death of local tournaments will hurt the regional qualifiers and below This is the second time you've mentioned Regional Qualifiers and below, as if it's a stigma. I remember a couple of years ago you admonished me for saying that qualifying for Regionals wasn't that big of a deal. You proceeded to pour forth the statistics as to how impressive qualifying for Regionals actually was (I'm sure you'll be able to comb thru the archives and find our discussion). Guess a lot has changed as far as your perceptions over the last couple of years. BTW, there are plenty of "Regional Qualifiers and below" seeking competition and willing to travel for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Blood Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Freestyle & Greco = Figure skating competitions / Gymnastics / ..... Any sport that is decided by a judge and not by the actual athlete with a true score you can follow. That is my biggest issue. It takes a pannel to ref, and it is WAY, WAY too inconsistant. Folkstyle I think shows more on who the best wrestler actually is. Obviously there can still be a mistake made in folkstyle, but it is more cut and dry and not so much up to inturpretation. I have watched kids do nothing but crotch lift and win freestyle matches. You are not going to do that in folkstyle. Way too much judging. Same reason I don't like the other sports listed above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 This is the second time you've mentioned Regional Qualifiers and below, as if it's a stigma. I remember a couple of years ago you admonished me for saying that qualifying for Regionals wasn't that big of a deal. You proceeded to pour forth the statistics as to how impressive qualifying for Regionals actually was (I'm sure you'll be able to comb thru the archives and find our discussion). Guess a lot has changed as far as your perceptions over the last couple of years. BTW, there are plenty of "Regional Qualifiers and below" seeking competition and willing to travel for it. You go do the research if you so please. Just because you know of one regional qualifier that is traveling the nation doesn't mean they all are or even a large percentage are. You only care about one wrestler in the world right now, you could care less if the sport exists in three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 You go do the research if you so please. You only care about one wrestler in the world right now, you could care less if the sport exists in three years. Pretty sure this isn't accurate. Hope to someday watch my gk's wrestle if I'm lucky enough to ever have any. Not sure how you're assuming I'm the villian in this situation. Is it because because I've taken my kid out of state twice this off season? The other stuff we have done has been all in state with local clubs (four competitions to be exact). As I've previously stated, for each of the six competitions we've went to I've offered to take whatever kids wanted to go along. Exactly zero took me up. So if I'm the bad guy and the primary culprit ruining our sport, then I guess I should beg forgiveness and find out what I can do to make amends. As a parent I thought I was pretty supportive but you've shown me otherwise. Additonally, we haven't been able to do extra during the week because my wife thinks my kid needs to study or something. Not sure where she gets these crazy notions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmotorfan Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 My two cents, hmm were to start. What you need for wrestling is less division, more points scored, more caring coaches like 123 who will do anything to bring wrestling to the kids. Lot of fairy tail on this post and I think I will just stay positive ihsaa controls folkstyle and the final chess move they made was RTC. Iswa needs to just focus on freestyle and greco as a side show.I personally think you need to make the parents into fans,the average fan needs more points scored, more matches in a day,and most of all more action on the mat. I seen ref,s at P.M. really pushing the kids for action and I think that will help with real refs but we dont always get real refs at the hometown touneys. The rule stating that a wrestler pushing out on purpose would be warned and then a point would be given to other wrester was not enforced ,I was disapointed about that. Would rather see f/s greco start in some sort of nuetral clinch so the action is imediate,cut out the dancing for 45 secs. Thats one aspect about folkstyle that makes it more appealing to the Fans. All though it still has bugs to work out I think trackwrestling is the wave of the future, most problems you see is just a matter of them having the right tech. support. In a perect wrestling world TW would control all rankings and all tourneys would be ran by TW computer tech. Yes Iswa needs to sign a contract with tw giving them rights to run all iswa tourneys, from wght ins to seeding to bracketing. Worth it to allow iswa coaches and kids to focus on what we are there for, making better people through wrestling. Would love weight classes changed to five pound incraments 50,55,60 ,65, although way up to 180, then 200,220 and hvy more opportunity for more kids and just so much easier,you could combine any 3 weights any given weekend depending. Should only be 3 div. best to just use school grades k-5,6-8,9-12 I understand why someone would be against this but it would be some much easier. Instead of asking how much money a club can get out of a wrestling family, ask is the club putting the investment back into the kids. Wrestling is an individual sport by all means but when team was taken out of high school it changed the dynmics of most coaches. We need to allow kids to grow into the sport at no cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 Off topic slightly but I thought the RTC's was an ISWA thing? How is it related to IHSAA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Those three all have extensive backgrounds in freestyle and greco. They were all multiple time All-Americans at Fargo and very high on the World Team ladder. Point taken, but I doubt very may kids could name their freestyle/greco accomplishments. I would say possibly Matt Hurford at our school. Beyond that, they only know what they see on ESPN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 I would argue that a majority of kids after high school (college if they are lucky) dont have the desire to compete in freestyle or greco. They want to get a job, start a family, pay back their ridiculously high student loans, etc. So why follow it? Probably doesnt help either that they only show the olyimpics to through main stream media outlets and even then its like 4 matches. USAW should try to get replays of the big international tournaments on espn 2 or something. Either way the interest in freestyle is dying. The big names will want to compete in the FILA Nationals and Fargo. But like AJ said I would argue that to a majority of kids winning/placing at the NCAA's is the major goal. EDIT: Curious I checked the Pennsylvania Site and noticed that their numbers for freestyle state are not great as well maybe worst than us...didnt count each individual wrestler. http://usapawf.com/results/states_fs_detail.pdf - 2012 Freestyle State PAWF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The argument that they aren't going to do it after high school/college doesn't fly. They aren't going to do folksytle after high school/college either. If that's the case, they should focus on school to work programs/Dave Ramsey classes/Home Ec classes to prep for life and ditch wrestling altogether? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 A lot of new kids to the sport get their first experience in off-season wrestling and "cut their teeth" at the local tournaments. Regardless of if clubs are making money on the events or not the kids are using them to see how much interest they have in the sport, catch up on needed skills, and find more competition they don't see during the season. If the tournaments are ran poorly/slow or don't offer enough mat time the wrestlers/parents will get a bad taste in their mouth. This creates a downward spiral where people don't show up cause more people to not get much out of the event and the tournament eventually ends forever. Now for those wrestlers who are ultra-experienced, very talented, and/or have lots of extra funding they can supplement this by traveling to farther away events, out of state ones, or go to special training academy's. But those who do not have that type of long lasting connection, high level talent, and/or money will not jump into that level of commitment without at least first getting a few years under their belt at local events. Some of you may look at this as greedy local tournaments wanting money, but I still look at it as great mat time for the MS and even young HS kids who are just starting to grow and gain a stronger interest in the sport. The issue then is how do we help sustain the local events and help them grown in participation and even in talent level. The answer is not cut and dry. Clearly on the coaching side we need to get more of the middle range kids to show up in the off season and attending some of these events, as a way of improving skills. On the event side of thing we need event organizers that are sharing ideas on what is work and not working at tournaments to keep things running smoothly when events are large and ensure kids get adequate mat time when events are smaller. As someone mentioned before its about improving the depth of wrestling in the state so that the all around competition level improves, and that will take more than just the small percentage of dedicated kids that attend these major events and go to the training academy's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 So where can my kids join the highschool freestyle and greco team? When is the IHSAA Freestyle and Greco season? Again the MAJORITY of kids participate in high school athletics and that is the extent of their athletic careers. Of that majority a small precentage are good enough or even want to compete at the college level. Once college is done you have loans and bills to pay. People want to get on with their lives. I have no desire to seriously compete anymore. Do you? Did you go and compete at the US Open or any of the other big international tournements? Why did you stop competing? MattM: What is our guage for the improvement of depth? Is it competition at Fargo? We can't compete in the big Highschool Tournements. Whats the guage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 So where can my kids join the highschool freestyle and greco team? When is the IHSAA Freestyle and Greco season? Again the MAJORITY of kids participate in high school athletics and that is the extent of their athletic careers. Of that majority a small precentage are good enough or even want to compete at the college level. Once college is done you have loans and bills to pay. People want to get on with their lives. I have no desire to seriously compete anymore. Do you? Did you go and compete at the US Open or any of the other big international tournements? Why did you stop competing? MattM: What is our guage for the improvement of depth? Is it competition at Fargo? We can't compete in the big Highschool Tournements. Whats the guage? If your whole argument is that kids won't be doing this after high school or college in a few cases, shouldn't we be focusing more on lawn mowing competitions or baking contests since that is what the kids will be doing after high school more than wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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