charger.dad Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 walt harris said it all quite well in his last two posts....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I didn't say killing the prior post....I said "having a negative effect" It was a question, not a statement. If it wasn't for Freestyle/Greco, Folkstyle wouldn't be around. But who cares about things like history and all of that. I'd like to know how Folkstyle wrestling developed. Does Folkstyle wrestling and the U.S. systems of measurement have similiarities? Too many big numbers to follow over the big pond, so we just adapt a simpler version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 The problem is we consistently have wrestling short timers with extraordinarily loud voices. These are many overzealous parents masquerading as coaches. They come into the sport of wrestling for ten years while their kid is involved and then leave. They have no interest in the overall sport of wrestling. They only want personal glory for their kid… the rest of the wrestling world be damned. Who cares about that local tourney, right? Screw those local people, my kid needs National attention!!!! It is a level of narcissism that most wrestling lifers are unaccustomed to dealing with because it is the antithesis of the unselfish nature of so many wrestling lifers who are coaches, officials and volunteers. #1 Those "parents" make up the bulk of the wrestling community across the country. If not for those "narcissists" you'd have no wrestlers. Is a coach who's expectation is for a kid to attend the local event over a clearly higher quality national/elite event, really showing concerned for that kids development? Of course not. It's about club first. So their needs to be balance of both. And IMO that's what most parents try to do. Support their club/academy and at the same time keep development on upward trend. #2 Who cares about that local tourney, right? Screw those local people? my kid needs National attention? WOW. That's harsh. I know many parents who make choices to attend national over locals when available and affordable. Never has this type of selfish attitude been evident to me. Instead it's a parents sacrifice of time and $$. Lifers or not. Make no mistake, the local events are a MUCH easier road to take from a parents/family standpoint. Tell me which is a better developmental tool for a wrestler, a local event wrestling kids you've seen several times maybe even practiced with? Or, a national/elite event that offers several more matches with wrestlers that are generally at a higher level, and new competition? So to say "Who cares... or "Screw those local people" or "my kid ..." is IMO, just silly. It seems your throwing stones in a glass house... you want Indiana wrestling to improve but you want to limit the resources of that improvement. IMO it would seem that to expect a parent to be more concerned about the sport than their kid is a pretty wild and unrealistic expectation. It’s about balance. Living in a bubble isn’t the answer. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 I didn't say killing the prior post....I said "having a negative effect" It was a question, not a statement. If it wasn't for Freestyle/Greco, Folkstyle wouldn't be around. But who cares about things like history and all of that. I'd like to know how Folkstyle wrestling developed. Does Folkstyle wrestling and the U.S. systems of measurement have similiarities? Too many big numbers to follow over the big pond, so we just adapt a simpler version? So because it is old we should fight for it? Your anti-folkstyle sentiment baffles me? How is that going to be beneficial to the kids who just wrestle through highschool? Do we just kick them to the curb because they dont have astronomical goals of beating russia in the olyimpics and thwarting communism? If you want the main national styles to be Freestyle and Greco you need to convince the IHSAA/NFHS and NCAA to change. Make Disney a Freestyle tournment, the Super 32 needs to be freestyle the IndianaMat pre season open needs to be freestyle. 95% of the Big tournements are folkstyle. you need to change that number before kids are willing to put a significant chunk of time in to learning/following it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 So because it is old we should fight for it? Your anti-folkstyle sentiment baffles me? How is that going to be beneficial to the kids who just wrestle through highschool? Do we just kick them to the curb because they dont have astronomical goals of beating russia in the olyimpics and thwarting communism? If you want the main national styles to be Freestyle and Greco you need to convince the IHSAA/NFHS and NCAA to change. Make Disney a Freestyle tournment, the Super 32 needs to be freestyle the IndianaMat pre season open needs to be freestyle. 95% of the Big tournements are folkstyle. you need to change that number before kids are willing to put a significant chunk of time in to learning/following it. and there you have it.......folkstyle is what this country knows best and what is popular because this is what our colleges do and for 99.99% of the kids who go on to wrestle in college know that after that it's over for them.....i don't mind freestyle/greco and my kids both do it because it was good mat time especially at the state level......and for sure they learn things that benefit them in folkstyle......but in my opinion those two don't hold a candle to folkstyle when it comes to entertaining matches, solid scoring and a lot less controversy.......i've seen so many times at freestyle tournaments when the kids are tied up and a throw is made and they roll over a few times, the ref makes his call, period is over, and the opposing coach is up in arms saying his kid was the one who scored the points......i think most kids would rather do folkstyle......just my 2 cents...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I have been involved with wrestling as an athlete, coach and referee for almost 40 years and I have FINALLY figured out why wrestling is in the shape it's in...it's because the people involved in wrestling can't agree on anything. It's the attitude that if you don't agree with my opinion you are stupid (one person's favorite term), suffering from dementia, on another planet, don't have the best interests for your club, region, state, country, family, species, etc... If you truly believe that wrestling being eliminated from the Olympic Games won't effect folkstyle wrestling in the USA then you have drain bamage. ;D Programs will be dropped at the university level and it will trickle down to the high school level. Less opportunities for everyone. I hope I'm wrong, but I would bet the farm on it. Because we have done the same things over and over for years and years doesn't make it right. You just keep getting the same results...or maybe a little worse. Tom Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I'm not anti-folkstyle.... I'm anti one mind set.......I'm anti only showing one option to children.......I'm anti doing folkstyle non-stop, it's going to lead to more burnout and lower numbers. I'm pro opening more doors, teaching a wrestler to be a great all around wrestler and well versed in many styles, and having fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I'm not anti-folkstyle.... I'm anti one mind set.......I'm anti only showing one option to children.......I'm anti doing folkstyle non-stop, it's going to lead to more burnout and lower numbers. I'm pro opening more doors, teaching a wrestler to be a great all around wrestler and well versed in many styles, and having fun. Great post TB!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Nick, If for instance you were a tad bit taller and a basketball coach. Would you encourage your athletes to? Play 3 on 3 Play 1 on 1 Play Horse Play 21 Tip-in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Nick, If for instance you were a tad bit taller and a basketball coach. Would you encourage your athletes to? Play 3 on 3 Play 1 on 1 Play Horse Play 21 Tip-in He's not going to be Happy with the short reference....he might just get Grumpy...from some of his posts I think he's Dopey, but when he reads the part about being short he sure won't be Happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Nick knows I love him, I will even give him an IndianaMat shirt if he wrestles me in Greco next weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 I would promote those if they were the only options available. If I had to choose between playing horse and a real 5v5 game I would take 5v5 all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I have been involved with wrestling as an athlete, coach and referee for almost 40 years and I have FINALLY figured out why wrestling is in the shape it's in...it's because the people involved in wrestling can't agree on anything. It's the attitude that if you don't agree with my opinion you are stupid (one person's favorite term), suffering from dementia, on another planet, don't have the best interests for your club, region, state, country, family, species, etc... If you truly believe that wrestling being eliminated from the Olympic Games won't effect folkstyle wrestling in the USA then you have drain bamage. ;D Programs will be dropped at the university level and it will trickle down to the high school level. Less opportunities for everyone. I hope I'm wrong, but I would bet the farm on it. Because we have done the same things over and over for years and years doesn't make it right. You just keep getting the same results...or maybe a little worse. Tom Clark so as a ref do you think it's tuffer to to make the right calls in free/greco versus folk style? do you get more complaining from coaches in free/greco?..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 so as a ref do you think it's tuffer to to make the right calls in free/greco versus folk style? do you get more complaining from coaches in free/greco?..... Many would argue that I couldn't get a tough call right in any style. If I get complaints I usually send them over to see Bob Hasseman. Bob is used to complaints and an expert Customer Service Representative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 As a coach I think the reffing for international styles is more consistent throughout the county than folkstyle is. My best example would be at the Scholastic Duals one of our first matches we had a ref from New York. He called more stalling in that dual than we had called on us in the other six matches combined. He also had other nuances that were different from what the coaches and kids were accustomed to and thus they had to adjust to the referee. There are even refs that we coach our kids differently for throughout this state. Inconsistencies between how much of a sticker refs are for lining up properly or how they call stalling or fleeing the mat, etc. In freestyle and greco the biggest complaint would be the 50/50 calls that could go either way. I think in the grand scheme of things it is way easier for a ref to tell if a kid broke 90 degrees vs. holding someone there for 2 seconds at 45 degrees. The main disagreements come in the areas of the 2 and 2 or 3 and 2 situations where no matter the call one coach and wrestler will be unhappy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 As a coach I think the reffing for international styles is more consistent throughout the county than folkstyle is. My best example would be at the Scholastic Duals one of our first matches we had a ref from New York. He called more stalling in that dual than we had called on us in the other six matches combined. He also had other nuances that were different from what the coaches and kids were accustomed to and thus they had to adjust to the referee. There are even refs that we coach our kids differently for throughout this state. Inconsistencies between how much of a sticker refs are for lining up properly or how they call stalling or fleeing the mat, etc. In freestyle and greco the biggest complaint would be the 50/50 calls that could go either way. I think in the grand scheme of things it is way easier for a ref to tell if a kid broke 90 degrees vs. holding someone there for 2 seconds at 45 degrees. The main disagreements come in the areas of the 2 and 2 or 3 and 2 situations where no matter the call one coach and wrestler will be unhappy. One of the reasons the international styles are more consistant is USAW has clinics for referees (coaches are always welcome) prior to every national and regional level event. In folkstyle there is one national meeting (video conference) at the beginning of the year and then some states are the mercy of their state associations. During the high school season I get calls almost weekly from referees in other states inquiring how we call certain situations in Indiana. It's amazing to me how big the differnce is sometimes...and we all use the rules book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 #2 Who cares about that local tourney, right? Screw those local people? my kid needs National attention? WOW. That's harsh. I know many parents who make choices to attend national over locals when available and affordable. Never has this type of selfish attitude been evident to me. Instead it's a parents sacrifice of time and $$. Lifers or not. Make no mistake, the local events are a MUCH easier road to take from a parents/family standpoint. Tell me which is a better developmental tool for a wrestler, a local event wrestling kids you've seen several times maybe even practiced with? Or, a national/elite event that offers several more matches with wrestlers that are generally at a higher level, and new competition? So to say "Who cares... or "Screw those local people" or "my kid ..." is IMO, just silly. It seems your throwing stones in a glass house... you want Indiana wrestling to improve but you want to limit the resources of that improvement. IMO it would seem that to expect a parent to be more concerned about the sport than their kid is a pretty wild and unrealistic expectation. It’s about balance. Living in a bubble isn’t the answer. JMO One can put a bow on a turd. It's still a turd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 One can put a bow on a turd. It's still a turd. Correct. My point exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmotorfan Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 126 junior @Columbus E. & Center Grove? anyone going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 One of the reasons the international styles are more consistant is USAW has clinics for referees (coaches are always welcome) prior to every national and regional level event. In folkstyle there is one national meeting (video conference) at the beginning of the year and then some states are the mercy of their state associations. During the high school season I get calls almost weekly from referees in other states inquiring how we call certain situations in Indiana. It's amazing to me how big the differnce is sometimes...and we all use the rules book. He'll also entertain weekly calls from upset coaches..... or at least laugh at us when we do call! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I'm pro opening more doors, teaching a wrestler to be a great all around wrestler and well versed in many styles, and having fun. The kids do have the option, but they are chosing to wrestler mainly one style. The freestyle/greco option is still there but the options (local tournaments) are dwindling because the wrestlers/parents are choosing to focus on folkstyle. I am sure people have their own personal reasons for this, but the options still remain as does the coaching and teachiong of freestyle. Folkstyle does get more TV time with college wrestling on BIG 10 Channel and the NCAA's while freestyle is limited exposure to olympics. This boost in popularity for folkstyle may just be a by product of recent media attention in the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestlingfan182 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 I don't know how the topic went to a debut about coaching styles. but I know during freestyle season the top rtc's are teaching freestyle and greco makes no sence not to.Yes a lot of the big tour are folkstyle except Fargo the Dual tournements so on those are the big tour so I'm not getting the huge drop in wrestlers not wrestling freestyle and greco to be the best you have to get these styles in your arsenal .I pesonally loved watching. Humphrey ,Spencer,Escobedo exc. Coaches should be coaching and promoting freestyle right now if there not they shouldn't complain about wrestling being out of the Olympics.All I can say wrestlers if you love the sport experience greco and freestyle. plus it bonds you more with the wrestling community .I always loved seeing everyone at the fairgrounds. Some great wrestling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 I believe the three separate scored periods has hurt the sport....fila said this change was to promote more action but i believe it drastically had the opposite affect.. Example current rules if your up by two in the first your probably looking to ride that lead through the last 20 or so seconds but if your score carried over you would still benefit from scoring because instead of the second period resting 0-0 you could extend your lead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Nick, If for instance you were a tad bit taller and a basketball coach. Would you encourage your athletes to? Play 3 on 3 Play 1 on 1 Play Horse Play 21 Tip-in I like this analogy but I would take it a step further and say if my child played basketball would I choose to find an International style camp so they could play in the Olympics one day or find an American style basketball camp so they can play in college one day?? If kids want to change it up a bit and wrestle a different style, cool...but I dont hear of other sports worried about kids playing the same style of their sports from pee wee through college. Football, baseball, basketball, golf are pretty much the same format and style from little league to college. So I dont understand burnout of one particular style. Do other countries wrestle folkstyle in their offseason to get a break from freestyle/greco? I do understand burnout from the rigors of the most intense sport there is and if thats the case go play some baseball and golf during the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestlingfan182 Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 I believe the three separate scored periods has hurt the sport....fila said this change was to promote more action but i believe it drastically had the opposite affect.. Example current rules if your up by two in the first your probably looking to ride that lead through the last 20 or so seconds but if your score carried over you would still benefit from scoring because instead of the second period resting 0-0 you could extend your lead I love freestyle and greco you have to wrestle every sec 100percent or it will end. I know there had been many times my son was getting his but kicked but he kept wrestling waited for the other to make a mistake then overcame . Its exciting you can throw. Love everthing about it my belief is the coaches need to sale the importance to kids and parents . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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