Fabio Jr. Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Ok this issue has been brewing in like 9 different posts. Let's get it all out there in one place for discussion. Why are Local Tournments so important? Why is this an issue now and not during folkstyle? What can be done to fix it? Simple questions difficult answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Why are Local Tournments so important? 1. This is a grassroots even that helps fund local clubs and school programs for things such as in-season expenses to sending kids to camps during the summer. 2. These are great ways for your regional qualifier and below wrestlers to get competition throughout the spring or summer. These kids are not going to pony up the money for ToC, NUWAY, USAW Folkstyle Nationals, etc. This helps build your program and goes way beyond the two or three weeks they have for their folkstyle season. Why is this an issue now and not during folkstyle? Because of the huge drop-off in the middle school and lower grades participation. Due to our early folkstyle season those kids can get their wrestling season in and then play baseball in the spring. What can be done to fix it? Get coaches on board with promoting local tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 They are not mutually exclusive. I think most folks do a combination of local AND out of state. Do I know dads that won't have their kids wrestle any USA stuff be it local or national? Yes. But I find those individuals to be the exception and they have their reasons so who am I to judge. Frankly, I don't believe it's the out of state tourney's that are killing local tourneys. It's apathy amongst the kids that are in wrestling clubs. It's one thing to go for an hour on Tuesday and Thursday to your clubs off season workouts, but ask a kid to give up a Saturday and/or a Sunday? Forget it. When I see the obnoxius, neon green Penn singlets show up at a tourney I, for one, am ecstatic. If only more clubs could provide numbers like that. Face it gang, wrestling is tough, plain and simple. Isn't enough flash and there sure isn't any ESPN coverage to attract the casual kid to come out. It's the unique kid that doesn't mind toiling in anonymity. Can it be fixed? I suppose but I can't figure it out. My son designed what he described as a "sick" singlet for his club and then he came up with the idea of giving any wrestler the singlet for free if they attended 4 off season tourneys, otherwise the kid would have to pay for it. Not sure if it would work but it's out of the box thinking anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachi123 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Seems like a 3 way battle. Maybe u guys should just beat each other up and the winner is right. Not sure I seen any of u at franklin( only know 2 of u). Were u out of state? Shame shame D There is no right answer. For my club(Fayette Co.) we do both. It does stink to see the same competition over and over, but we will be either be at center grove or Columbus next weekend. I do find it funny how we would want out of state wrestlers to maybe show up for a pre season tourney here but Indiana wrestlers to be damned for not supporting a local! The real problem starts from the top down. Fila changing the rules back 10 years ago or when ever seem to be the start of the decline of numbers at local and state tourneys. It still happens today. Rules changing whenever does not help small clubs who's coaches are not informed every week fila decides to switch it up. Just some of my thoughts. Ok let the bashing begin go...... Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I do find it funny how we would want out of state wrestlers to maybe show up for a pre season tourney here but Indiana wrestlers to be damned for not supporting a local! Thanks for the pot shot. I sincerely apologize for bringing a pretty darn tough tournament to the state of Indiana during a time where there are little to no tournaments going on. I will make sure to run it by you before I try to bring more positive things to the state of Indiana for the sport of wrestling. Again please accept by deepest apologies for doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestlingmnd Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 We as a family do both local and out of state. We do it because we feel we get the most bang for our buck. It's the best of both worlds and if u look at who's winning in the area, they travel. I agree with the comment that some of it is the kids in general, not a single one of my Sons friends will give up 3 to 4 days a week for wrestling practice or a Sat or Sun. My kid would do all of the above and Sat and Sun both. This next comment is meant on a positive note. I am not criticizing. Maybe the organizers of our local events could reach out and ask these successful tournaments what they are doing. Never hurts to ask. They must be doin something right. People can put down other states and tournaments all u want but... We talked to a club at the TOC in Columbus this past weekend that had 70 members. That's right 70. They had enough commited kids that they brought an entire bus load to the tournament. How many clubs can say that and how many tournaments can say that they had 2984 entries. They must be doin something right.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachi123 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Come on Y2, I appreciate this board and what u do for wrestling. I'm on here everyday. Did u go to a local tourney this weekend? Or out of state? At your RTC did u go over that the rules in freestyle and Greco had changed again? Where will your team be this weekend and how many u think will wrestle at state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I think a mixture is the right call. In the stone ages when I competed we would go to 2-3 out of state tourneys and cover the all the local tourneys. It does come to just supporting the local clubs and still getting good competition. I think a lot of clubs shy away from running tourneys now out of the fear of not getting enough to sign up and not being able to get their own kids to run. I know that is two of the issues our club discusses. Our tourney didn't knock down the walls with 300+ wrestlers. We had just shy of a hundred, a nice mixture of Indiana/Kentucky/Ohio guys, we were done by 1, and made more than our yearly high school budget. Not a bad day at the office. It is on coaches to keep the kids interested and wanting to come to practices/meets when the weather gets nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 I blame the complexity of freestyle and greco rules. Its gone down in popularity once it got to confusing to watch and understand and was just a "who can push who out more" match. (It's boring which is what fila was trying to stop right?) The international styles just aren't a major focus for a MAJORITY of wrestlers. That may not seem like a good thing but a MAJORITY of wrestlers will "retire" after high school and college so the knowledge of freestyle is not important to them. To the crazy (in a good way) people who want to continue to wrestle internationally they have the oppurtunity. I think the "Ironman" Format is the best way to accomodate all wrestlers. Give them a shot to compete in what they want or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 In all honesty the rule changes is just a crutch that coaches and some wrestlers continue to use even though they have been implemented for almost 10 years now. There have been more rule changes in folkstyle than in freestyle over the past 10 years. Many coaches did not like the initial changes and are upset that their kids can't play the edge any more thus their hatred of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Come on Y2, I appreciate this board and what u do for wrestling. I'm on here everyday. Then why the pot shot? Seems like you have some ill will towards the tournament that brings in some very tough competitors from surrounding states. Again I apologize for doing this and doing a little bit to help make it easier for Indiana kids to see some tough wrestlers. In the future I will try to limit this so that we must travel to other states to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 IMO I tend to agree that the rules changes are a bit of a crutch. And as far as local vs national events. This seems to be an unfair expectation. I've thought about and discussed this one. IL is one of the top wrestling states in the US by participation. We've attend the elite tournaments in the Chicago area for years now and there are always some local kids missing even these high level events due to national tournaments on the same weekend. It's happens everywhere. Is it realistic or fair to expect a wrestler to attend a local tournament when a higher quality national or elite event that provides a differant look is an option? As to the academies effecting weekend tournament attendance. The more I've thought about this one the more I think, maybe... Both the national events and academies seem to be opportunities that are tough to pass on when it comes to overall quality and a chance for individuals to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 The lack of the local tournaments is what hurts our depth. The top kids will be the ones going to the out of state and national tournaments. The local tournaments help build the depth of our wrestling state. It has been stated many times that our top wrestlers can compete with the top wrestlers of other states, but other states have better depth than what we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 but other states have better depth than what we do. I think if you look at total population by state, it seems IN has the depth quality of other states that are in our population range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 It's pretty obvious the off season is in full swing. What a ridiculous subject to be getting your undies in a bundle over. Kids/parents being taken to task for where they wrestle in the off season. Hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 "Crutch" or not when you have wrestlers coming off the mat not sure why they won a period having it be explained them and themstill thinking its dumb, you have an issue. I still hold the belief that if we just ran folkstyle through May numbers would increase. Inversely you could just eliminate the ISWA folkstyle season for HS ages as wisconsin seems to have done for the same results... The international styles are dying because they serve no REAL benefit to the average wrestler...I don't mean specific skills I mean wrestling in general. Back in the day you used to have to do the whole freestyle thing because it was all that was around. Now a day's there are exponentially more Folkstyle oppurtunities which makes more sense to iattend in order to make mprovements toward their goal than to go to a similiar freestyle tournamnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 "Crutch" or not when you have wrestlers coming off the mat not sure why they won a period having it be explained them and themstill thinking its dumb, you have an issue. Then I blame a coach for not explaining how you win a period. It isn't rocket science by any means. 1. Least amount of cautions 2. Bigger move(s) 3. Last to score The scoring has not changed in ages with the exception of the push-out. It has always been 1 for takedown, 2 for turn, 3 for feet to back, etc. Again neither is rocket science and if you can't explain it then I have a hard time believing that you can coach a kid on the intricacies of locking hands or how to properly line up in referee's position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Then I blame a coach for not explaining how you win a period. It isn't rocket science by any means. 1. Least amount of cautions 2. Bigger move(s) 3. Last to score The scoring has not changed in ages with the exception of the push-out. It has always been 1 for takedown, 2 for turn, 3 for feet to back, etc. Again neither is rocket science and if you can't explain it then I have a hard time believing that you can coach a kid on the intricacies of locking hands or how to properly line up in referee's position. He is a Findlay Alum so I can see where this might be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 He is a Findlay Alum so I can see where this might be a problem. Hey now two out of three Findlay alums can figure out the freestyle rules, myself and Hasseman. I am not even sure an Ohio State alum can count to three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Hey now two out of three Findlay alums can figure out the freestyle rules, myself and Hasseman. I am not even sure an Ohio State alum can count to three. Tyrelle Pryor has a tattoo on his left arm, his right arm and his left calf. That equals three! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Is 3 the number of years without a bowl too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 The following dates might be off by a year or so. I offer anyone’s input to corrections. These are just my opinions. 1983: ISWA starts offering freestyle(fs)/greco(gr) tourneys. Attendance low. ISWA viewed as outsider. 1990s: Significant attendance growth in fs/gr. A preponderance of Indiana wrestling community start to see the benefit of fs/gr. The fs/gr tournaments start the week after IHSAA State through May. 1994: ISWA reaches a zenith with fs/gr during the mid to late 90s. Fs/gr attendance is astronomical. Fs/gr tourneys still starting the week after IHSAA state. 1995: ISWA starts offering a few folkstyle tourneys. 1997: USA Wrestling pressures ISWA to offer complete folkstyle season. This pushes fs/gr season back a month to start after St. Patrick’s Day. Also shortens fs/gr by a month. Immediately there was decrease in local fs/gr because imop some wrestlers just stopped after IHSAA State and lost their season ending motivation; they did not want to sit around for a month for fs/gr to start. ISWA folkstyle was something for only for elementary/middle school kids back then. 2000: Fs/gr tournaments had been taking forever. Some mistakenly view keeping a 7-14 year old boy staying at a local tourney until 10 p.m. a badge of courage. Attendance in fs/gr starts decreasing more. 2002: USAW tells many state organizations promote folksytle over fs/gr (see shooting yourself in the foot) because local folkstyle tourneys clearly bring in much more money than fs/gr. And some of that money flowed directly to USAW. 2007: NUWAY folkstyle enters. States surrounding Indiana begin offering short and cheap tournaments. Usually a kid gets 3-4 matches under 2 hours and goes home for a cost of $5-$10. 2009: Some USAW wrestling organizations refuse to use the NUWAY model for pairing/running tournaments. Long waits still seen incorrectly as badge of courage. More kids/parents give up the sport. Present: Local tournaments in fs/gr are nearly gone because folkstyle was overpromoted by state organizations at the behest of USAW. And local folkstyle tournaments are beginning to decrease in attendance or possess poor competition because one can go to other states for faster run folkstyle tournaments, sometimes at cheaper prices, with better completion. Guys, wrestling is being destroyed from the inside. And all of us either knowingly or unknowingly have played a role in it. Video killed the radio star. And offering local folkstyle killed freestyle/greco and will soon decimate local folkstyle in favor of all national tourneys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 So folkstyle is the evil? That's what I get from your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Walt forgot to start of his message with "The following message has been paid for and approved by Nuway, The greatest thing since sliced bread!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Video killed the radio star. And MTV slowly killed the Video Star. Hope that our wrestling organizations and event organizers don't find a way to keep slowly killing the wrestling star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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