Kurt Boyer Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Super duals were in existence LONG before team dual state was implemented. It is still beneficial to wrestle super duals regardless if there is a team dual state or not. Wrestling multiple times per day is still the best preparation for the post season tournament. The bottom line is super duals run themselves. While Im a huge fan of individual bracketed tournaments, one must realize that super duals require less $$ and effort from the school administration (AD's)........ enough said there. KBoyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrick Snyder Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 My head hurts... Why is so hard for people to understand that we must keep Team State to alter it later? People are saying I don't like Team State in the current format so screw it...lets get rid of it and change it later. Losing Team State is a HUGE step backwards. How do we not understand that if we want to change Team State for the better, we must first keep it. KEEP TEAM STATE AND THEN CHANGE IT. Is Team State gone? Probably...Eastern situation certainly did not help. This all being said, I am not going to have a defeatest attitude. I am going to work to promote Team State and get a large crowd. This gives us a chance. If we pack the house and the IHSAA makes a ton of money, we have at least a chance to keep Team State. Then, we work to convince them of a better, easier, and more profitable format. Mishawaka will not be wrestling at Team State, but our team will be their supporting the cause. Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrick Snyder Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Kurt Boyer, Teams will still wrestle in duals and some dual meet tournaments if there is no Team State, but I believe you will see a lot less of them, which is bad for our sport. Our goal is to win a State Championship regardless of whatever dumb format is used. If we use the Individual State to determine our Team State Champions, that is a joke and embarassing to our sport, but we will model our season to prepare to win a Team State Championship. That means less dual meets and super duals. I would guess any school working to compete for a Team State Championship would do something similar. At least that is what I have heard from the coaches I talked to. Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Kurt Boyer, Teams will still wrestle in duals and some dual meet tournaments if there is no Team State, but I believe you will see a lot less of them, which is bad for our sport. Our goal is to win a State Championship regardless of whatever dumb format is used. If we use the Individual State to determine our Team State Champions, that is a joke and embarassing to our sport, but we will model our season to prepare to win a Team State Championship. That means less dual meets and super duals. I would guess any school working to compete for a Team State Championship would do something similar. At least that is what I have heard from the coaches I talked to. Snyder Coach Snyder -- would you also change the way the NCAA crowns a team wrestling champion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 In my opinion, NCAAs are a completely different animal. There are 32 guys at each weight, so the top teams all have 8-10 out of 10 weights at the tournament. Thus the scoring is a lot more indicative of team depth. Typically the team winner is also the best duals team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrick Snyder Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Are you really trying to compare high school atheltes to Division I athletes??? Going to a meeting...no time to explain, but wow...Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharmon01 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Coach Snyder - I don't believe losing team state will reduce the number of dual meets and super duals. The super dual started becoming popular in the late 80s when the state champion was still determined by the individual tournament. Super duals were the death of the week night dual and I believe the super dual may have hurt wrestling because of the long Saturdays it has created. Right now we wrestle in 3 individual tournaments during the season and we won't add more just because we may lose team state. When I was in high school it was all duals during the week(tue.+thur.). We only wrestled the county tournament and a holiday tournament. We didn't wrestle a bunch of individual tournaments because the state was individual. Don't get me wrong I don't want to lose team state - it took us 10 years to get it. I just don't think the arguements given to keep it are right. I don't believe it will increase numbers in wrestling even if you class it. If you class it there will still be certain schools that will dominate it like now. If there are 3 classes I don't think more than 2 will advance to the championship, if you have 2 classes I think only 4 will advance not 8 like the current one class team state. I just don't think the IHSAA will advance 8 teams to state per class. What I would like to see is keep the Team tournament (I think it is done though) and go back to scoring the individual. When the individual was scored and the scores flashed up on the scoreboard it was pretty exciting for those of us old enough to remember it. Last year's team race in the individual would have added to the excitement of the tournament. Maligned- In 1997 Oklahoma State was the favorite and Iowa (Gable's last year) came in and won it . The best dual meet team in college didn't win it that year. I hope we don't lose team state, but I think they made their decision back in November. At the same time I don't think if we lose it that less kids will wrestle and programs will be lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Are you really trying to compare high school atheltes to Division I athletes??? Going to a meeting...no time to explain, but wow...Snyder Not comparing the athletes...just the system. The NCAA crowns a National Championship based on an individual tournament, not a dual-meet format. Yet, no one ever complains about it. I understand there are differences in athletes, teams, etc. But Penn State has a great shot to win this year even though they got man-handled by Iowa in their dual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Not comparing the athletes...just the system. The NCAA crowns a National Championship based on an individual tournament, not a dual-meet format. Yet, no one ever complains about it. I understand there are differences in athletes, teams, etc. But Penn State has a great shot to win this year even though they got man-handled by Iowa in their dual. If 30% of the state's wrestlers qualified then it would be a comparable example. I doubt that anyone wants a 96 man bracket though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrick Snyder Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 We will wrestle in less dual meets and dual tournaments if individual state determines the Team State Champs...most coaches I have talked to that have the goal of winning a State Championship as a team plan to do the same. Division I athletes are ELITE...that is why they are Division I athletes. How many kids on our teams are ELITE? Individual State rewards and focuses on ELITE wrestlers...we have 62 guys on our team...only a few are ELITE. Using Individual State to determine that Team State Champions, makes no sense because overwhlemingly most of our wrestlers are not ELITE. I have no doubt losing team state will decrease numbers, interest, etc. That is just my opinion, though. Anyone out there disagree that classing team state would be best for our sport? Anyone? If you believe this to be true, we must keep it first and then class it...so simple in my humble opinion, but we can't stand together. Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummels Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I doubt that any on wants a 96 man bracket though. With wrestle backs? :-X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I think that part of the problem with team state is that it almost is in competition with individual State. Guys are so focused on the individual state that Team state is secondary. What do you guys think about moving it up in the year. I think it could be cool having it finish up sometime around Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I think that part of the problem with team state is that it almost is in competition with individual State. Guys are so focused on the individual state that Team state is secondary. What do you guys think about moving it up in the year. I think it could be cool having it finish up sometime around Christmas. In Pennsylvania, they do the team state championships in mid-Feb (I think Feb 9-12). The individual championship finals (which then also has a team champion) is about a month later. So in that state, you can win two team championships in one year. One for the team format and one for the individual format. They also appear to have two classes (AA and AAA) for both individual and team scores for all events. Lots of winners, lots of fans attending, presumably. Is this a model for success? What say you . . . I think PA is a pretty good "wrestling state". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMAWRESTLER Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Thats what i think, also kids dont need to wrestle 40 matches before tournament time. Stop regular season early and start a classed team tournamet. if you get beat then resume practice for individual tournamet. They could finish it up in a week and a half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Here is the bracket from the PA 2008 team state AAA and AA http://www.piaa.org/assets/web/documents/results/winter/wrestling/team/2008_AAA_Team_Wr.pdf http://www.piaa.org/assets/web/documents/results/winter/wrestling/team/2008_AA_Team_Wr.pdf So 12 teams participate in the finals for AA and another 12 for AAA. Also, if you notice in the AAA bracket, some team voluntarily withdrew, it appears. I think they have some type of qualifying event to make it to state, but I am not sure what. Just using this as an example and talking point, I have no background or experience other than what I looked at on the PIAA website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 You could get the team series done in one week if you had four classes. Four classes with roughly 79 teams in each class that would break down to 16 4-6 team sectionals in each class. Tuesday Wrestle to the 16 sectionals champs for each class. Thursday 4 4-team regionals each class Saturday 4 teams in each class wrestle for a championship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 You could get the team series done in one week if you had four classes. Four classes with roughly 79 teams in each class that would break down to 16 4-6 team sectionals in each class. Tuesday Wrestle to the 16 sectionals champs for each class. Thursday 4 4-team regionals each class Saturday 4 teams in each class wrestle for a championship So we would have all 16 finals teams wrestle at same facility on same day, giving good attendance numbers and making a little scratch for the IHSAA. Seems reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 So we would have all 16 finals teams wrestle at same facility on same day, giving good attendance numbers and making a little scratch for the IHSAA. Seems reasonable. When it is all said and done, isn't that what the IHSAA is all about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 That is true Joe, but then you would be watering down individual state tournament series, and it is obvious the disasterous effect that had on basketball. How is it disastrous? Ohhh I know, we don't know who the "true" champion is. It is funny how our girl's basketball team has been in the top 5 of 2A all year and I have yet to hear from their coaches how class basketball has ruined their season. Its funny also how no other sport other than basketball is "ruined" by classing. You don't hear them saying that in football, baseball, softball, or even soccer. Maybe it is just because the people who think single class is the only way to go are still living in the 1950's era of Milan. Earth to nickster, its 2011, not 1950. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boot Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 How is it disastrous? Ohhh I know, we don't know who the "true" champion is. It is funny how our girl's basketball team has been in the top 5 of 2A all year and I have yet to hear from their coaches how class basketball has ruined their season. Its funny also how no other sport other than basketball is "ruined" by classing. You don't hear them saying that in football, baseball, softball, or even soccer. Maybe it is just because the people who think single class anything are still living in the 1950's era of Milan. Earth to nickster, its 2011, not 1950. I've never heard of any team complain about winning a title in a class system. They love it in Ohio and it's working in other states. Eventually it will go to classed, now it's a game of how long and how much resistance there will be along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I think Coach Harmon and others might be on to something. Is it possible to look at the number of participants in wrestling over the years? It seems like some of the people advocating for team state because it will increase participation also say that over the last 15 or 20 years that wrestling popularity has decreased which happens to coincide with the time we've had team state. I believe that Individual state attendance numbers have been fairly constant since I wrestled in the late 80s. I just don't see any proof that team state increases the popularity of our sport. Feelings are not proof. However I feel that there isn't much of a difference in popularity for our sport from then till now. I happen to think that wrestling is going to attract the same crowd give or take. It is just the nature of it. It is not that popular of a sport in most regions of our state and our Nation. There are basically wrestling people and non wrestling people and unless we let the boys start coming out to individual rap songs and start hitting and submitting opponents, I don't feel this is going to change. I think Coach Snyder is speaking for his program when he talks of the growth in popularity of wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Just baiting you Joe. I'm just disagreeing with you Joe. You don't have to go getting all 3rd grade on me now, do ya? Please show me where other sports have complained about classes? I am curious because both our girl's basketball and softball teams have had quite a bit of success and neither are complaining about there being classes. Maybe there are complaints elsewhere, but at the 2A level no one is upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I'm not really interested in arguing with you about this Joe. I will say this. High school baseball, softball, soccer, and girl's basketball never have and never will have much of a following regardless of what is done in the IHSAA. Tomorrow I am going to attend the Castle Regional, and it will be very well attended and very exciting. If there were 4 Regional Tourneys . . . Well HO Hum. Next week I will be going to the EV SemiSTate See above. The NExt week I will be attending the State Tourney See above. Now don't get all mean Joe. This is just how I Feel. Nickster, Joe was just classing the team tournament, not the individual. Right Joe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 The proposal I made up was for the team and team only. It is the most efficient way to get the team series done in one week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 We host a 2A girls GIRLS basketball regional....gym's pretty much packed every year...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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