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High School Wrestling Participation up

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What if classing the tournament included the ability for teams to enter up to two wrestlers per weight? Would that change anyone's mind on classing the tournament? From the perspective of a non-classer, would that positive out weigh the negative enough for you to be pro-class?

Sorry, I tried not going there in this thread, but this response is more relevant here than the other places I posted it...

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2 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I'd love more details on this, 1000 new wrestlers.

Are they from big, small, medium schools?

Are they freshmen, sophomores, juniors, or seniors?

Are they new to the sport or coming back out after sabatical?

Etc....

1000 new wrestlers is a lot and good as long as it's across the board.

That's exactly what i was wondering. Seems to me that the bigger schools keep getting more and more out.

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38 minutes ago, Falcon06 said:

I have seen a lot of teams starting up Varsity 2 teams. I know this has helped with retention at Perry especially with seniors.  In the past we would see some seniors drop after wrestle off's when they didn't make V1.  With the addition of the V2 team they still get matches at a high level.  I know this doesn't account for 1000 extra wrestlers but I do believe it retains seniors we would have lost.  We have quite a few seniors wrestling on our V2 squad this year.

I have had this discussion with others, the whole Varsity 2/B scenario is the rich getting richer. It is great for retention at bigger and more successful schools no doubt about it. However at that expense the teams and the kids they beat now have the stigma of losing to a JV kid. It really just depends on the point of view you are coming from.

This is likely helping retention at those top schools, but at the same time is it helping retention at schools that now face these V2 teams at events and get beat?

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6 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I have had this discussion with others, the whole Varsity 2/B scenario is the rich getting richer. It is great for retention at bigger and more successful schools no doubt about it. However at that expense the teams and the kids they beat now have the stigma of losing to a JV kid. It really just depends on the point of view you are coming from.

This is likely helping retention at those top schools, but at the same time is it helping retention at schools that now face these V2 teams at events and get beat?

Agree.  The two varsity team concept is extremely helpful to a team.  It provides depth in the room and you have a more seasoned backup to step in when the varsity kid gets an injury.  My son's high school has been running a Varsity B for years and they averaged over 60+ kids in the room the last 6 years.  I noticed their Varsity B is 10-1 and  this year against varsity competition.    Also Joe in your other post about teams dropping out of a tournament.  Lot of times, these Varsity B/2 teams are open to fill up a vacant spot.

    But like you said,  sometimes other varsity schools don't want to wrestle the second team because of the stigma and sometimes its difficult to fill a spot.   I can see it being  deflating to a small school to being beat on by second string kids.

Just another interesting thing about Indiana,   you have a lot more  of mix of large schools wrestling small schools.  I know back West were I come from, in  those 2nd rate class wrestling rates, the big schools wrestle the big schools and small schools wrestle small schools.   Not even talking about the state series.  I know its part of the Indiana state psyche where "Size Doesn't Matter".  Getting beat by big schools can be just as deflating as getting beat by big school varsity B teams.

 

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8 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

 I know back West were I come from, in  those 2nd rate class wrestling rates, the big schools wrestle the big schools and small schools wrestle small schools.   Not even talking about the state series.  I know its part of the Indiana state psyche where "Size Doesn't Matter".  Getting beat by big schools can be just as deflating as getting beat by big school varsity B teams.

 

Not to hijack the thread, but it's a double edged sword with that.  Problem with that is small schools mostly wrestling small schools it that it often ends up resulting in trading FF with few actual matches occurring.  Wrestlers also lose interest much quicker when they work hard all week, put the work in to make weight, wake up early, travel far away, and spend most of the morning not getting any actual competition in.  At least when you wrestle most big teams and some V2 teams they have a full roster which means your getting matches in individual even if at the end of the day the teams record hurting due to some FF's in the lineup.  

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4 minutes ago, MattM said:

Not to hijack the thread, but it's a double edged sword with that.  Problem with that is small schools mostly wrestling small schools it that it often ends up resulting in trading FF with few actual matches occurring.  Wrestlers also lose interest much quicker when they work hard all week, put the work in to make weight, wake up early, travel far away, and spend most of the morning not getting any actual competition in.  At least when you wrestle most big teams and some V2 teams they have a full roster which means your getting matches in individual even if at the end of the day the teams record hurting due to some FF's in the lineup.  

Good point,  and Im also going to qualify my statement by saying to hijack the thread as that's a sensitive subject.    What do you think about this idea?   If football  can have  6 or 8 man football as recognized as a sport in many states.  Maybe wrestling could adjust some dual meets for smaller schools and have like 8 or 9 man roster wrestling.  Maybe you have a wider range of weight between weight classes. It might make the actual dual completion a real going concern, eliminate the boring forfeits and keep kids interested.

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This starts to get real tricky real fast.  I hate to see kids not given opportunities based on their school size.  If you are a really good kid on a small team and want to wrestle the best competition and don't have an opportunity at your small school, that is going to cause kids to look for other options.  The rich get richer when the kid transfers and a small school just lost a kid they probably wanted to build their program around.  I agree duals with large and small schools probably don't make sense, but hopefully there is room for some small schools in tournaments to get a chance to wrestle tougher competition.  Sometimes its hard for small schools to get a shot to do that, but I think most really appreciate it.

Since we are throwing out ideas, anyone else think 6 points is just too much for a forfeit?  It seems like there could almost be a way to check if there is a kid available to wrestle that spot based on certifications or something.  If the school has someone and doesn't wrestle them - 6 points.  If the school really has nobody - 3 points.  Would be a great way for coaches to show kids real life honor in adhering to the spirit of the rule and not try to game the system.  Would hate to think its not realistic.

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8 minutes ago, doctorWrestling said:

 

Since we are throwing out ideas, anyone else think 6 points is just too much for a forfeit?  It seems like there could almost be a way to check if there is a kid available to wrestle that spot based on certifications or something.  If the school has someone and doesn't wrestle them - 6 points.  If the school really has nobody - 3 points.  Would be a great way for coaches to show kids real life honor in adhering to the spirit of the rule and not try to game the system.  Would hate to think its not realistic.

This wouldn't work,  I think it would promote more forfeits, because coaches would find a way to avoid the other teams studs by not wrestling just to avoid giving up a hole 6 points for a kid who is overmatched  vs  giving 3 for a forfeit. 

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Others that question the numbers are right--to have a steady decline and then a sudden enormous jump means either a very clear determining factor (e.g. uniform change) or the data collection method changed. A confluence of circumstances can impact small change over time--but this huge jump is very, very likely the result of a single reason. I'm very curious along with others as to whether the jump is mostly a freshmen thing (which could indeed mean the prior uniform change at the MS level has impacted some things) or if it's across all grade levels (which could mean that this year's uniform change has impacted things OR that there was a data collection method change).

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4 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

This wouldn't work,  I think it would promote more forfeits, because coaches would find a way to avoid the other teams studs by not wrestling just to avoid giving up a hole 6 points for a kid who is overmatched  vs  giving 3 for a forfeit. 

You'd have to show you had nobody certified in your program.  Probably a record keeping nightmare. But this idea of winning duals figures into the avoiding tough match-ups.  I think it's great to get tough match-ups for the individual wrestlers.  But, if the coach is trying to win a dual... creating a match-up that can get the TEAM 6 points via a pin vs a potential loss for a strong guy is an interesting dilemma.

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On Friday, December 08, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Y2CJ41 said:

I have had this discussion with others, the whole Varsity 2/B scenario is the rich getting richer. It is great for retention at bigger and more successful schools no doubt about it. However at that expense the teams and the kids they beat now have the stigma of losing to a JV kid. It really just depends on the point of view you are coming from.

This is likely helping retention at those top schools, but at the same time is it helping retention at schools that now face these V2 teams at events and get beat?

You raise a valid point as it relates to V2 teams disproportionately impacting large programs, but that doesn't make it a bad thing, just not a one size fits all fix. Clearly if you cant fill your 14 man V1 team a V2 team isnt for your program. 

If we want to boost overall numbers we get the most impact when our solutions affect the largest segments of HS students. Nearly 2/3 of our students go to big schools, so anything that helps with rentention for big schools is a good thing. Particularly when it doesn't take away opportunities for small schools.

"Sorry kid you're blocked by a SP, but you're too good to wrestle other team's varsity kids because you may hurt their feelings and they'll quit. You dont mind wrestling JV tournaments your jr and sr year do you?"

I'm not sure this is the path to higher numbers or better wrestling in Indiana.

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9 hours ago, Westforkwhite said:

You raise a valid point as it relates to V2 teams disproportionately impacting large programs, but that doesn't make it a bad thing, just not a one size fits all fix. Clearly if you cant fill your 14 man V1 team a V2 team isnt for your program. 

If we want to boost overall numbers we get the most impact when our solutions affect the largest segments of HS students. Nearly 2/3 of our students go to big schools, so anything that helps with rentention for big schools is a good thing. Particularly when it doesn't take away opportunities for small schools.

"Sorry kid you're blocked by a SP, but you're too good to wrestle other team's varsity kids because you may hurt their feelings and they'll quit. You dont mind wrestling JV tournaments your jr and sr year do you?"

I'm not sure this is the path to higher numbers or better wrestling in Indiana.

I do like your over dramatization, it really puts a great affect on the truth. The truth is it is not easy to send your V2 to an event as many schools will say "no thanks." So there is a lot of validity in my statements.

Secondly, there have been 800+ forfeits at sectional the past few years which equals about 2.75 per team. If we have 1000 more wrestlers I'm hoping that the number of forfeits should drop by at least 1 as 1000 more kids is 3 new kids per team and at least ONE should fill an open spot. We'll see in about a month though.

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On 12/8/2017 at 2:47 PM, MattM said:

Not to hijack the thread, but it's a double edged sword with that.  Problem with that is small schools mostly wrestling small schools it that it often ends up resulting in trading FF with few actual matches occurring.  Wrestlers also lose interest much quicker when they work hard all week, put the work in to make weight, wake up early, travel far away, and spend most of the morning not getting any actual competition in.  At least when you wrestle most big teams and some V2 teams they have a full roster which means your getting matches in individual even if at the end of the day the teams record hurting due to some FF's in the lineup.  

yea, we're one of those teams. Missing FF from 106-132

 

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2 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I do like your over dramatization, it really puts a great affect on the truth. The truth is it is not easy to send your V2 to an event as many schools will say "no thanks." So there is a lot of validity in my statements.

Secondly, there have been 800+ forfeits at sectional the past few years which equals about 2.75 per team. If we have 1000 more wrestlers I'm hoping that the number of forfeits should drop by at least 1 as 1000 more kids is 3 new kids per team and at least ONE should fill an open spot. We'll see in about a month though.

You can call it dramatization, but that's essentially what we are telling kids. The schools saying no thanks to V2 competition are also likely adding to FF total you have mentioned. With all the problems facing small school participation (near all of which we cant regulate away) i doubt losing to V2 opponents is in the top 5 

Im right with you hoping the number of FF drop, but overall participation numbers and decreasing forfeits arent completely corollary. I think the most important thing for wrestling in Indiana is to get more kids wrestling, and im less concerned with where those numbers come from, just that they are there. It just seems the participation discussions blur into parity and im not convinced that is one of the main things holding back numbers.

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34 minutes ago, Westforkwhite said:

You can call it dramatization, but that's essentially what we are telling kids. The schools saying no thanks to V2 competition are also likely adding to FF total you have mentioned. With all the problems facing small school participation (near all of which we cant regulate away) i doubt losing to V2 opponents is in the top 5 

Im right with you hoping the number of FF drop, but overall participation numbers and decreasing forfeits arent completely corollary. I think the most important thing for wrestling in Indiana is to get more kids wrestling, and im less concerned with where those numbers come from, just that they are there. It just seems the participation discussions blur into parity and im not convinced that is one of the main things holding back numbers.

Every other individual sport "essentially" tells kids that also. 

The schools that say "no thanks" to our V2 are not teams or events littered with forfeits. The purpose of sending a V2 team is to get MATCHES so we, along with the others, look for events with teams that have minimal forfeits. 

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45 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Every other individual sport "essentially" tells kids that also. 

The schools that say "no thanks" to our V2 are not teams or events littered with forfeits. The purpose of sending a V2 team is to get MATCHES so we, along with the others, look for events with teams that have minimal forfeits. 

I would venture to guess that your V2 team has more kids than many of the V1 teams they face. So by inviting Carrol's V2 schools would be getting more matches for their kids, and in turn fewer FFs. 

I also understand the stigma associated with a V2 loss and wasnt trying to say it was completely without merit. More a matter of how much merit. At some level arent we placating a loser mentality? I dont say that to be cruel, it just doesn't seem like the kid was all that into wrestling if he quits because he got beat by Perry or Portages V2. The reason the V2 beats the V1 is because he's put more time and effort into it (athletic freaks aside). So taking away opportunities from V2 kids seems all stick and no carrot to me.

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20 minutes ago, Westforkwhite said:

I would venture to guess that your V2 team has more kids than many of the V1 teams they face. So by inviting Carrol's V2 schools would be getting more matches for their kids, and in turn fewer FFs. 

I also understand the stigma associated with a V2 loss and wasnt trying to say it was completely without merit. More a matter of how much merit. At some level arent we placating a loser mentality? I dont say that to be cruel, it just doesn't seem like the kid was all that into wrestling if he quits because he got beat by Perry or Portages V2. The reason the V2 beats the V1 is because he's put more time and effort into it (athletic freaks aside). So taking away opportunities from V2 kids seems all stick and no carrot to me.

What is the "carrot" option?

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Yep I was told the same thing.  Says they have been tracking through the weight loss program for a number of years.  So every wrestler that has been bodyfat tested and eligible to compete is listed in those numbers for ever year listed.  So the tracking method has remained unchanged.  So a 1000 number increase is very positive for this season.  Now I wonder if the increase is like what i have seen on my own team.  We fill all the weights but I have seen an increase in #'s in my middle weights.

21 hours ago, buscowrestling said:

I was curious about how the numbers are compiled, so I emailed Commissioner Faulkens. He said they come from the Alpha Master Reports.

 

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I don't think the increase necessarily has to be a product of just one cause.  Not only has the uniform started to change, and no matter how much i hate the 2 piece im sure their are a lot more kids willing to wear it, but we have also seen a huge increase of the number of girls that are joining the teams since the girls state was introduced.  Then we had at least 2 or 3 schools that added wrestling to their school this year. I'm sure all of these have played factors in the increase. Now with that being said, I've seen a lot more ff this year than ever before. I don't think dividing the compitition into large and small schools will help anything. If a kid wants to be good, he will find a way. I think there is a validity to some of the better kids at small schools transferring to larger schools. It just makes since that the smaller the student count, the smaller the numbers in the room, which means it will be less likely that there would be another kid at their skill level around their size to push them during practice. So, the better kid transfers to have partners in his room. I think we can lower the chances of the kid transferring,  if the IHSAA would do away with some of the rules about where and with whom a kid can train during the season. We are one of the few states that have these strict rules. If they can train with other schools kids, which most likely will be the same kids they train with in the off season, then not only will we see a continued increase in talent through out the season, but it will lessen the need for higher caliber kids to feel they have to go to a larger school. Yes it is a wrestling TEAM but like it or not its still an individual sport. " whend you're out their wrestling with someone stronger and faster than you,  there's not a whole heck of a lot a team can do for you". Sorry, couldn't help myself

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