ghughes1974 Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 IHSAA Wrestling Grievances – The 12 Days of IHSAA Christmas This post is designed to be an opportunity for coaches, wrestlers, parents and wrestling fans to share grievances with IHSAA practices around high school wrestling. I have several grievances that I plan to roll out one at a time over the next 12 days. For fun, I’ll do it 12 days of Christmas style. I’m a wrestler, a parent of wrestlers and a high school varsity wrestling coach. I also coach elementary and middle school teams. I’ve coached in Indiana for 15 years and I’m in my 9th season as a head wrestling coach of a small high school in Indianapolis. I also coach off season teams for small school wrestlers and coordinate wrestling tournaments for Indiana’s small schools. I am frustrated with how the IHSAA administers wrestling. A recent poor sectional alignment decision that is completely void of equity is the tipping point for me. The goal of this post is to be a dialog with the wresting community. Are the IHSAA’s practices I bring up in these posts what is best for our kids and our sport? I don’t think so. I’d love to hear what the rest of the wrestling community thinks. Greg Hughes Wrestler, concerned parent and coach 317-753-7786 greg@continuumgames.com Coplen187 and Paycheck141 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghughes1974 Posted December 9, 2023 Author Share Posted December 9, 2023 On the first day of Christmas, IHSAA gave to me, lowest success rates in the country. Indiana qualifies a significantly lower number of wrestlers to their state tournament annually when compared to other states. Here’s a comparison to 8 other nearby states: The Outlier State Population Annual State Qualifiers Classes Qualifiers per Class Indiana 6.8 million 224 1 16 The Norm (8 state comparison) State Population Annual State Qualifiers Classes Qualifiers per Class Iowa 3.2 million 1008 3 24 Pennsylvania 12.9 million 840 3 20 Illinois 12.5 million 672 3 16 Michigan 10 million 672 3 16 Ohio 11.7 million 672 3 16 Missouri 6.1 million 896 4 16 Nebraska 2 million 896 4 16 Tennessee 7 million 616 3 16 (12 in 1A) A big part of wrestling is setting and pursuing goals. The IHSAA does a great job at its state tournament of putting on a great show…the wrestling state finals is an amazing event. However, it is an event that very few Indiana wrestlers get to experience. Think of some of the positives that occur when a wrestler makes it to state: 1. The community gets excited about wrestling and their wrestlers 2. The school makes announcements about their accomplishments and hosts student pep rallies for wrestlers 3. T-shirts are made with the wrestlers name on it “road to state” 4. Coaches recognize the accomplishment by putting a wrestler’s name on wrestling room wall (list of qualifiers) 5. Young athletes see all of these activities and are inspired to want to be wrestlers (youth and middle school participation numbers get a boost) By qualifying so few to state makes these types of positive activities a rare occurrence for wrestlers and wrestling programs (except for powerhouse programs). Also, the IHSAA consistently eliminates amazing athletes at semi-state. We have college level wrestlers coming out of Indiana who never qualified for a high school state tournament. Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association has been asking to take more to state. This request is consistently denied by IHSAA assistant commissioner Robert Faulkens. Is that the right decision? Given we don’t have classes, should we only take 16 wrestlers per weight, which appears to be the minimum when compared to other states? If you agree Indiana should take more to state, click “Like”. RedPride, Coach T, Swarm88 and 7 others 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awill0352 Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Looking at the numbers it looks like if Indiana wrestlers wrestled in Iowa then every single wrestler at semi-state would essentially make the state tournament. Right? iowa is half the size of Indiana and qualifies over 4 times the wrestlers. Is that really the answer. Seems like too many. ReformedPoster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neccdad Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Just from a fans perspective on this…I’m a no thank you! I think Indiana wrestling is the best tournament the Ihsaa puts on. It was better before online ticketing…but it’s still the best tournament. Adding a name to the wall, hosting a pep rally, community excitement…all more special because of how hard it is to get there right now. There’s a certain level of classed wrestling that eventually brings in a “participation trophy” conversation. It’s easy to bring up the kids every year that “should” make it, but what about the kid that gets last place in each class. One of those kids went to state only to be determined the what…64th overall (or maybe lower) best kid in the state at that weight? And they should be on the wall? All I’m saying is there’s a certain level of this that everyone fails to bring up, every time. I respect the question though and I’m glad you brought some facts and numbers to the table. Ahap88, Paycheck141, HeadLocksWinChampionships and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadLocksWinChampionships Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Class wrestling is Semi State. Coplen187 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takemtothemat Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 I believe 16 qualifying for state per weight class is where it should be. I too coached at a small school 20 plus years. I loved the challenge the tournament series presented my wrestlers. Go hard or go home. JStits, AnonymousLeprechaun0125, Ahap88 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahap88 Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 16 is just right. No need to water down the field just so more wrestlers (and adults) get the experience of making the finals. Getting there means that you are among the best in the state, don't lower the bar for the sake of "feel goods". That's an epidemic already. JStits 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Time Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Chatter among a few of the girls coaches: the rule limiting weight loss by 1.5% from the previous week weigh-in makes it hard to get qualified weigh-ins due to natural water retention during certain times of the month, followed by how quickly they drop again the following week. If we could simply follow the progression in the Alpha that is established at the beginning of the year, that would be really helpful instead of the week-to-week, weigh-in to weigh-in formula. Example: Alpha 176.2, Min Wrestling Weight 145.1. Weigh-in #1: 177.5; Weigh-in #2: 174.0 not qualified bc of water retention at weigh-in #1. But would have been qualified if original Alpha min weight of 171 was used. This process repeats every four weeks. Coach Brobst 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Why don't you setup a meeting with Robert Faulkens to talk about all your grievances? To be honest he is the one to talk to for anything and everything IHSAA. bomber_bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghughes1974 Posted December 10, 2023 Author Share Posted December 10, 2023 (edited) Tried that already. More to come on experiences with Mr. Faulkens in a future post. Edited December 10, 2023 by ghughes1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghughes1974 Posted December 10, 2023 Author Share Posted December 10, 2023 On the second day of Christmas, IHSAA gave to me, no wrestle backs Indiana is one of the only states that doesn’t use double elimination format with full wrestlebacks in its state tournament. We have a total of 5 single elimination rounds in our state tournament series. We are a state, possibly the only state, that eliminates half of its state qualifiers in a single match. Here’s a comparison to other states: The Outlier State Population Wrestle Backs? Placement Indiana 6.8 million first round single elimination Remaining 8 wrestle for placement to 8th The Norm (8 state comparison) State Population Wrestle Backs? Placement Iowa 3.2 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Pennsylvania 12.9 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Illinois 12.5 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Michigan 10 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Ohio 11.7 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Missouri 6.1 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Nebraska 2 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Tennessee 7 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Part of wrestling is wrestlebacks. Wrestlebacks allow a wrestler to deal with the adversity and bounce back from losing a match. Colleges scouts want to see how wrestlers handle failure. Also, if they are scouting at state, they want to see their prospects wrestle more than one match. ISWA tournaments use wrestlebacks. NCAA tournaments use wrestlebacks. Other states use wrestlebacks. Not having wrestlebacks is changing a fundamental part of the sport. It’s like not allowing the forward pass in football (go back to 1905), not allowing 3 point shot in basketball (go back to 1966), not allowing a designated hitter in baseball (go back to 1972). When you have among the lowest success rates in the country, it makes using wrestlebacks even more important. Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association has been asking for wrestlebacks (especially at semi-state). This request is consistently denied by IHSAA assistant commissioner Robert Faulkens. Is that the right decision? If you agree Indiana should have wrestlebacks, click “Like”. awill0352, Wrestling Scholar, RedPride and 20 others 23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousLeprechaun0125 Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 24 minutes ago, ghughes1974 said: On the second day of Christmas, IHSAA gave to me, no wrestle backs Indiana is one of the only states that doesn’t use double elimination format with full wrestlebacks in its state tournament. We have a total of 5 single elimination rounds in our state tournament series. We are a state, possibly the only state, that eliminates half of its state qualifiers in a single match. Here’s a comparison to other states: The Outlier State Population Wrestle Backs? Placement Indiana 6.8 million first round single elimination Remaining 8 wrestle for placement to 8th The Norm (8 state comparison) State Population Wrestle Backs? Placement Iowa 3.2 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Pennsylvania 12.9 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Illinois 12.5 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Michigan 10 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Ohio 11.7 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Missouri 6.1 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Nebraska 2 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Tennessee 7 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Part of wrestling is wrestlebacks. Wrestlebacks allow a wrestler to deal with the adversity and bounce back from losing a match. Colleges scouts want to see how wrestlers handle failure. Also, if they are scouting at state, they want to see their prospects wrestle more than one match. ISWA tournaments use wrestlebacks. NCAA tournaments use wrestlebacks. Other states use wrestlebacks. Not having wrestlebacks is changing a fundamental part of the sport. It’s like not allowing the forward pass in football (go back to 1905), not allowing 3 point shot in basketball (go back to 1966), not allowing a designated hitter in baseball (go back to 1972). When you have among the lowest success rates in the country, it makes using wrestlebacks even more important. Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association has been asking for wrestlebacks (especially at semi-state). This request is consistently denied by IHSAA assistant commissioner Robert Faulkens. Is that the right decision? If you agree Indiana should have wrestlebacks, click “Like”. Eliminating someone going 1-1 at semi-state has always felt ridiculous to me. A 1 seed beating a 4 seed first round of regionals or first round of semi-state, I can understand sending them home. A lot of ticket round matches are 2v3 seed and a lot of good kids get sent home due to poor draws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takemtothemat Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 1 hour ago, PurdueWrestlingFan197 said: Eliminating someone going 1-1 at semi-state has always felt ridiculous to me. A 1 seed beating a 4 seed first round of regionals or first round of semi-state, I can understand sending them home. A lot of ticket round matches are 2v3 seed and a lot of good kids get sent home due to poor draws. I would love a wrestle back for sure. Hopefully it will come soon. At least before my grand kids hit high school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 1 hour ago, ghughes1974 said: Tried that already. More to come on experiences with Mr. Faulkens in a future post. Obviously you have no clue on how things work in Indiana. Our coaches association has worked for years to mend the IHSAA relationship into a working relationship instead of trying to fight them. Over the last ten years we have made more progress on that front. To put it nicely, you won't get your desired result trying to fight the IHSAA. HCman, Ed Pendoski, Paycheck141 and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 15 hours ago, takemtothemat said: I would love a wrestle back for sure. Hopefully it will come soon. At least before my grand kids hit high school. Why wrestle backs and not classes? All arguments against classes work for wrestle backs: 1. More exciting - way more exciting to have a semi-final ticket round match where the winner goes on and the loser goes home, no re-dos 2. Work harder - if you work hard enough, you will be the bad draw. Go to camps, RTCs, etc and you won't need to "wrestle back" 3. Watered down - why give a kid who can't win through a chance to get back into the race? You lost, tough luck. Work harder - see #2 Understand, I am in favor of classes and wrestle backs. However, it does not make sense to me that people can logically conclude that it is unfair for a kid to get a "bad draw," but not logically conclude that it is unfair for a kid to have a disadvantage going to a much smaller school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrschott Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 34 minutes ago, Galagore said: Why wrestle backs and not classes? All arguments against classes work for wrestle backs: 1. More exciting - way more exciting to have a semi-final ticket round match where the winner goes on and the loser goes home, no re-dos 2. Work harder - if you work hard enough, you will be the bad draw. Go to camps, RTCs, etc and you won't need to "wrestle back" 3. Watered down - why give a kid who can't win through a chance to get back into the race? You lost, tough luck. Work harder - see #2 Understand, I am in favor of classes and wrestle backs. However, it does not make sense to me that people can logically conclude that it is unfair for a kid to get a "bad draw," but not logically conclude that it is unfair for a kid to have a disadvantage going to a much smaller school. IMHO an interesting compromise would be a classed tournament, followed by a tournament of champions, taking the 8 placers in each class and running them through a 32 man bracket to determine a definitive champion at each weight (maybe placing 4?). The major upside (as I see it) is you would get an extra week of wrestling for the top 32 wrestlers at each weight class. I sincerely doubt it will ever happen, but it would be really interesting. Jaedyn Jeffries and aoberlin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, rrschott said: IMHO an interesting compromise would be a classed tournament, followed by a tournament of champions, taking the 8 placers in each class and running them through a 32 man bracket to determine a definitive champion at each weight (maybe placing 4?). The major upside (as I see it) is you would get an extra week of wrestling for the top 32 wrestlers at each weight class. I sincerely doubt it will ever happen, but it would be really interesting. Quit trying to be logical. This is unacceptable. Consider yourself reported. tyquhp13 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 19 minutes ago, rrschott said: IMHO an interesting compromise would be a classed tournament, followed by a tournament of champions, taking the 8 placers in each class and running them through a 32 man bracket to determine a definitive champion at each weight (maybe placing 4?). The major upside (as I see it) is you would get an extra week of wrestling for the top 32 wrestlers at each weight class. I sincerely doubt it will ever happen, but it would be really interesting. They tried that with basketball and it flopped. Other states have tried to do similar and none lasted more than a couple years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 17 hours ago, ghughes1974 said: On the second day of Christmas, IHSAA gave to me, no wrestle backs Indiana is one of the only states that doesn’t use double elimination format with full wrestlebacks in its state tournament. We have a total of 5 single elimination rounds in our state tournament series. We are a state, possibly the only state, that eliminates half of its state qualifiers in a single match. Here’s a comparison to other states: The Outlier State Population Wrestle Backs? Placement Indiana 6.8 million first round single elimination Remaining 8 wrestle for placement to 8th The Norm (8 state comparison) State Population Wrestle Backs? Placement Iowa 3.2 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Pennsylvania 12.9 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Illinois 12.5 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Michigan 10 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Ohio 11.7 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 8th Missouri 6.1 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Nebraska 2 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Tennessee 7 million full wrestle backs (no single elimination) Placement to 6th Part of wrestling is wrestlebacks. Wrestlebacks allow a wrestler to deal with the adversity and bounce back from losing a match. Colleges scouts want to see how wrestlers handle failure. Also, if they are scouting at state, they want to see their prospects wrestle more than one match. ISWA tournaments use wrestlebacks. NCAA tournaments use wrestlebacks. Other states use wrestlebacks. Not having wrestlebacks is changing a fundamental part of the sport. It’s like not allowing the forward pass in football (go back to 1905), not allowing 3 point shot in basketball (go back to 1966), not allowing a designated hitter in baseball (go back to 1972). When you have among the lowest success rates in the country, it makes using wrestlebacks even more important. Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association has been asking for wrestlebacks (especially at semi-state). This request is consistently denied by IHSAA assistant commissioner Robert Faulkens. Is that the right decision? If you agree Indiana should have wrestlebacks, click “Like”. From an immigrant from another state to Indiana, IMO the quality of the Indiana state wrestling tournament is horribly diminished by not having wrestlebacks. Its an essential part of wrestling. Some people in Indiana like it. But as a pure wrestling fan, its agregious. TrueRegionFan, ILUV2PIN and piscis1956 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Just to piggyback on your post and give a more comprehensive view of the wrestleback status by state, here's the inclusive list of states that dont have wrestlebacks. List of States without wrestlebacks in respective state tournament Indiana List of states with wrestlebacks in respective state tournament Every state in America besides Indiana Jaedyn Jeffries, aoberlin, TrueRegionFan and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 6 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said: Just to piggyback on your post and give a more comprehensive view of the wrestleback status by state, here's the inclusive list of states that dont have wrestlebacks. List of States without wrestlebacks in respective state tournament Indiana List of states with wrestlebacks in respective state tournament Every state in America besides Indiana Thank you for taking the time to write out all the States that have wrestlebacks. Please rest your typing fingers now for the rest of the day. Tcarter, ILUV2PIN, Wrestling Scholar and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 30 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: They tried that with basketball and it flopped. Other states have tried to do similar and none lasted more than a couple years. One example I know of was Kansas which decades ago set up a format called "Grand State". The KSHAA created an event where the top four placers from each state tournament with four classes would compete in a 16 bracket. Yes, Kansas has four classes. But it was pretty cool, but only lasted two years. The main reason cited was coach fatigue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 On the 3rd day of Christmas, the IHSAA gave us sectional seeding criteria where the best record against other teams in the sectional supersedes head to head wins. piscis1956 and bwoodjc89 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugger44 Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 (edited) I lived in Nebraska for 8 years, and I only went to the wrestling state finals once. The competition was completely watered down. There were a few decent finals matches but it was so hard to watch 4 finals matches going on at the same time all wrestling to be a "state champ" and the awards took forever. I never went back. The Indiana state finals spoiled me, and cant be matched. Although I don't agree with ghughes1974 on class wrestling, I too would love to see wrestle backs, and think it would make the state finals that much better. Edited December 11, 2023 by Rugger44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Hopefully none of our sports bases their decisions on post season tournaments on fan experience. Thor and ghughes1974 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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