Multiple Entries for State Series

[indypharmd]

Too bad a program can't enter an additional roster and send them through a different semi state... No longer have a dog in the fight (pun intended), but I bet the 2's from Brownsburg would score high enough to probably win the FWSS as a team...

 

Just too bad that the tournament is not seeded like the NCAA tournament - Give CP, Brownsburg, CG & ? the #1 seeds and send them to the four corners and so on.... There were quite a few wt classes last year out of EVSS that was 3 or 4/4 Moorseville Regional placers for SQ...

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by indypharmd
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[aoberlin]

9 hours ago, indypharmd said:

Two bad a program can't enter an additional roster and send them through a different semi state... No longer have a dog in the fight (pun intended), but I bet the 2's from Brownsburg would score high enough to probably win the FWSS as a team...

We are well aware that we have work to do and TBH we need to get on the bandwagon and start recruiting and getting all the good kids to the same school to start creating powerhouses. But as of right now we aren’t doing that. No matter if you think this statement is true or not there is much more that goes into it all and personally I find it rude. But hey it’s the internet say what you want. Don’t worry though we always know who makes what statements.

 

Also it is “too bad” and not “two bad”.

 

[indypharmd]

1 hour ago, aoberlin said:

We are well aware that we have work to do and TBH we need to get on the bandwagon and start recruiting and getting all the good kids to the same school to start creating powerhouses. But as of right now we aren’t doing that. No matter if you think this statement is true or not there is much more that goes into it all and personally I find it rude. But hey it’s the internet say what you want. Don’t worry though we always know who makes what statements.

 

Also it is “too bad” and not “two bad”.

 

FIFY... tried typing on the mobile digital digital device...

 

A little salty there NE Indiana dude? 

 

Would recommend doing a bit of research before making accusations such as yours - I've occasionally heard that sarcasm being defined as protest of the weak... 

 

But for purposes of debating your premise, I would suggest using the allusion to the movie, A Field of Dreams... That has a bit more to do with the effect than your assertion...

 

There are kids that will never make the varsity lineups at places like CP and BB that would be SQ at other locales. I have seen parallels in other sports at former MIC schools, too. I truly get the difficulty that programs have in rural areas even fielding teams anymore (I graduated from one that can barely field a football team now after winning a Class A title ~20 years ago)

 

But the chaos that exists due to certain regions being powerful over different eras begs the question on whether there is value in spacing out the talent in the current format or altering the format to allow very good wrestlers to advance (wrestling backs).

 

[Galagore]

Allowing powerhouse schools to enter multiple lineups would choke out more of the average and below programs. Without average and below programs, the sport will cease to exist in a school-sponsored format and will eventually become a club-only system. The goal of HS sports is to create a valuable and beneficial experience to prepare for adulthood. If the experience at one's school does not meet these goals, it may be wise to seek another school or another way to achieve those goals.

[aoberlin]

11 hours ago, indypharmd said:

A little salty there NE Indiana dude? 

 

Would recommend doing a bit of research before making accusations such as yours - I've occasionally heard that sarcasm being defined as protest of the weak... 

Actually I do get a little salty when someone makes unnecessary comments about an area they don't have a clue about especially if they aren't around here trying to help. I don't need to do research, I live it every single day. Trust me on this, I know how it all works in the background with youth wrestlers and how schools are chosen. I hear things first hand and I wasn't being totally sarcastic. I think sooner or later things like that will have to happen in our area if we expect to compete at all on the team level.  

 

But... as Galagore said what truly is the goal of this sport? If those second stringers are that good then have them and their parents go to a smaller school and help build the culture there and get even more kids involved in the sport. If you are talking wrestlebacks and spreading out the talent pool then you need to do the research on what the wrestling community has been trying to do for decades. The bottom line is the IHSAA cares about 1 State Champion and making sure the population of wrestlers are spread out. They don't try to shift powerhouses to appease the greats and I don't disagree with that.

 

If it is so difficult there and easy here please feel free to let anyone know we would welcome everyone that would like to move to Northeast Indiana for the easy path but we would also appreciate help with coaching and building the area.

 

[Galagore]

2 hours ago, aoberlin said:

Actually I do get a little salty when someone makes unnecessary comments about an area they don't have a clue about especially if they aren't around here trying to help. I don't need to do research, I live it every single day. Trust me on this, I know how it all works in the background with youth wrestlers and how schools are chosen. I hear things first hand and I wasn't being totally sarcastic. I think sooner or later things like that will have to happen in our area if we expect to compete at all on the team level.  

 

But... as Galagore said what truly is the goal of this sport? If those second stringers are that good then have them and their parents go to a smaller school and help build the culture there and get even more kids involved in the sport. If you are talking wrestlebacks and spreading out the talent pool then you need to do the research on what the wrestling community has been trying to do for decades. The bottom line is the IHSAA cares about 1 State Champion and making sure the population of wrestlers are spread out. They don't try to shift powerhouses to appease the greats and I don't disagree with that.

 

If it is so difficult there and easy here please feel free to let anyone know we would welcome everyone that would like to move to Northeast Indiana for the easy path but we would also appreciate help with coaching and building the area.

 

 

And to go further with your last paragraph, feel free to head on down to southern Marshall county and help us run the program. We currently have openings for:

- Intramural Youth coach

- Elementary League coach

- MS assistant coach

The guy filling those positions currently would be happy to turn his paycheck over to a willing and qualified individual.

 

We also could possibly talk the AD/board into opening a girls coaching position if the right person wanted to fill the job.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Galagore
error

[swain358]

I brought this idea up at the coaches clinic a couple years ago. We need to adopt the NAIA model where each team can enter 2 extra guys into the state tournament. That will allow teams that have outstanding varsity 2 guys an opportunity to get them into the state tournament. It would add one extra round to sectional I would assume. I think this will help schools of all sizes. Yes, i’ve coached at a small school so I know the struggles felt there but I do think having multiple entries would help small schools as well. When I coached at a small school, we had back ups that were varsity level but just could not crack the line up. Plus more opportunities for kids to compete at sectional is always a good thing. This will definitely help keeping the football kids in the sport as well. Most football kids over 200 pounds decide not to wrestle once they see the writing on the wall that there are only 2 available spots to make the line up. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by swain358

[Y2CJ41]

26 minutes ago, swain358 said:

I brought this idea up at the coaches clinic a couple years ago. We need to adopt the NAIA model where each team can enter 2 extra guys into the state tournament. That will allow teams that have outstanding varsity 2 guys an opportunity to get them into the state tournament. It would add one extra round to sectional I would assume. I think this will help schools of all sizes. Yes, i’ve coached at a small school so I know the struggles felt there but I do think having multiple entries would help small schools as well. When I coached at a small school, we had back ups that were varsity level but just could not crack the line up. Plus more opportunities for kids to compete at sectional is always a good thing. This will definitely help keeping the football kids in the sport as well. Most football kids over 200 pounds decide not to wrestle once they see the writing on the wall that there are only 2 available spots to make the line up. 

I would be fine with the **gasp** Michigan method of allowing 14 entries and up to two in a weight class. That way sectional is not as big and it's likely no need for an extra round.

 

Reasons I think this would help include:

1. Retention of athletes will be greater if we include as many athletes as possible at the sectional level.

2. Decrease weight cutting or wrestling up at unsafe weights. Many times kids will cut or gain weight when they want to make the lineup, specifically for the state series. This would give coaches/athletes the ability to wrestle at sectional without having kids wrestle up or down at potentially unsafe weight classes.

3. Small schools with smaller rosters will be able to get most or all of their athletes into the sectional line-up. Many times schools even with small rosters will have a couple JV kids that aren't able to get very many matches during the season. This would "throw them a bone" to keep them interested and hopefully retain them.

 

The biggest issue with this is the very low potential of coaches loading up an extra guy in the same weight class. This is not likely to happen, but something that there would need to be a contingency plan for so not to go over 16 physical wrestlers in a weight class.

 

This would also hopefully eliminate the dumb "forfeits" in the brackets that give kids wins during the state series. Almost every state inserts a bye in individual tournaments instead of a lousy forfeit.

[Thor]

2 hours ago, aoberlin said:

Actually I do get a little salty when someone makes unnecessary comments about an area they don't have a clue about especially if they aren't around here trying to help. I don't need to do research, I live it every single day. Trust me on this, I know how it all works in the background with youth wrestlers and how schools are chosen. I hear things first hand and I wasn't being totally sarcastic. I think sooner or later things like that will have to happen in our area if we expect to compete at all on the team level.  

 

But... as Galagore said what truly is the goal of this sport? If those second stringers are that good then have them and their parents go to a smaller school and help build the culture there and get even more kids involved in the sport. If you are talking wrestlebacks and spreading out the talent pool then you need to do the research on what the wrestling community has been trying to do for decades. The bottom line is the IHSAA cares about 1 State Champion and making sure the population of wrestlers are spread out. They don't try to shift powerhouses to appease the greats and I don't disagree with that.

 

If it is so difficult there and easy here please feel free to let anyone know we would welcome everyone that would like to move to Northeast Indiana for the easy path but we would also appreciate help with coaching and building the area.

 

I'll start house hunting for any stud wrestlers that want to move to Berne. 

[aoberlin]

16 minutes ago, Thor said:

I'll start house hunting for any stud wrestlers that want to move to Berne. 

Dude. Pine Lake is a huge selling point. Hit that thing twice this summer.

[GenHeavyHandz]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:01 PM, BrodyHardcastle said:

Took a hit with Veazy and O’ campo gone. Still got Tun, Lapsley (grad?), Smith, and Russel right? Anyone else you think will make some gains this year? 

Morris Daring 126. SSQ transfer from Luers. Ethan Dodson SSQ injured before sectional HWT.  Deacon Rhodes Regional Qualifier last year but has the pedigree to get it done.  We have a sleeper at 144/150 who will surprise some people. Carter Krouse transferred from Columbia City.  We'll be aight.......

[BrodyHardcastle]

2 hours ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

Morris Daring 126. SSQ transfer from Luers. Ethan Dodson SSQ injured before sectional HWT.  Deacon Rhodes Regional Qualifier last year but has the pedigree to get it done.  We have a sleeper at 144/150 who will surprise some people. Carter Krouse transferred from Columbia City.  We'll be aight.......

Good stuff, love to see it!

[Bulldog89]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:21 PM, aoberlin said:

We are well aware that we have work to do and TBH we need to get on the bandwagon and start recruiting and getting all the good kids to the same school to start creating powerhouses. But as of right now we aren’t doing that. No matter if you think this statement is true or not there is much more that goes into it all and personally I find it rude. But hey it’s the internet say what you want. Don’t worry though we always know who makes what statements.

 

Also it is “too bad” and not “two bad”.

 

hopefully one day the North can compete with the elite from the south

[swain358]

20 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I would be fine with the **gasp** Michigan method of allowing 14 entries and up to two in a weight class. That way sectional is not as big and it's likely no need for an extra round.

 

Reasons I think this would help include:

1. Retention of athletes will be greater if we include as many athletes as possible at the sectional level.

2. Decrease weight cutting or wrestling up at unsafe weights. Many times kids will cut or gain weight when they want to make the lineup, specifically for the state series. This would give coaches/athletes the ability to wrestle at sectional without having kids wrestle up or down at potentially unsafe weight classes.

3. Small schools with smaller rosters will be able to get most or all of their athletes into the sectional line-up. Many times schools even with small rosters will have a couple JV kids that aren't able to get very many matches during the season. This would "throw them a bone" to keep them interested and hopefully retain them.

 

The biggest issue with this is the very low potential of coaches loading up an extra guy in the same weight class. This is not likely to happen, but something that there would need to be a contingency plan for so not to go over 16 physical wrestlers in a weight class.

 

This would also hopefully eliminate the dumb "forfeits" in the brackets that give kids wins during the state series. Almost every state inserts a bye in individual tournaments instead of a lousy forfeit.

I agree with all of your "pros" to allowing multiple entries in one weight class. Adding the two extra entries will really allow coaches to be flexible with Sectional Entries and would definitely decrease the number of athletes cutting too much weight or wrestling a weight where they are extremely under sized. 

 

Going the 14 entry route with the possibility of multiple in two weights "Michigan" could be problematic for coaches in some situations. Imagine the parent calls/complaints we would get if "Johnny" wrestled in the varsity line up all year at 132 only to not be included in the sectional roster because coach choose to double up at 120 instead. I think that could open up more issues for coaches. Add 2 extra and that goes away and I doubt many sectionals would have many/any weight classes that would exceed 16 participants. Most sectionals have 9-11 teams. That would mean 5 or more teams would all have to pick the same weight to add a wrestler. The odds are not high that would happen consistently. 

[aoberlin]

3 hours ago, Bulldog89 said:

hopefully one day the North can compete with the elite from the south

I know we have quite a few in this area that can right now and we are building!!! 

[Bulldog89]

29 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

I know we have quite a few in this area that can right now and we are building!!! 

I tried to be as sarcastic as I could in my post!!

[TripleB]

 

@indypharmd be like:

 

 

 

[Bulldog89]

On 8/28/2023 at 6:21 PM, GenHeavyHandz said:

Morris Daring 126. SSQ transfer from Luers. Ethan Dodson SSQ injured before sectional HWT.  Deacon Rhodes Regional Qualifier last year but has the pedigree to get it done.  We have a sleeper at 144/150 who will surprise some people. Carter Krouse transferred from Columbia City.  We'll be aight.......

Watch out for dem Bulldogs up North!!

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Bulldog89

[Bulldog89]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:01 PM, BrodyHardcastle said:

Took a hit with Veazy and O’ campo gone. Still got Tun, Lapsley (grad?), Smith, and Russel right? Anyone else you think will make some gains this year? 

Watch out for dem DOGS up North!!

[BrodyHardcastle]

49 minutes ago, Bulldog89 said:

Watch out for dem DOGS up North!!

I was impressed when I watched your young guys compete in a dual last year, Easton was out too. Solid team forsure

[Bulldog89]

8 minutes ago, BrodyHardcastle said:

I was impressed when I watched your young guys compete in a dual last year, Easton was out too. Solid team forsure

Juliana is going to make us deeper and with the experience we have back we hope to make a good run at Team State if we can get voted in and keep everyone healthy!!

[GenHeavyHandz]

3 hours ago, Bulldog89 said:

Juliana is going to make us deeper and with the experience we have back we hope to make a good run at Team State if we can get voted in and keep everyone healthy!!

 

5 hours ago, Bulldog89 said:

Watch out for dem Bulldogs up North!!

 

We are well aware of the Dogs.  It’s probably the best team ever at New Haven: and I remember the best ones.  Namely our senior year and the 2 years following.  However:  Panthers will scratch and paw their way to the top.  We have some holes, but we are senior laden and built for the long haul. 

[Bulldog89]

9 hours ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

 

We are well aware of the Dogs.  It’s probably the best team ever at New Haven: and I remember the best ones.  Namely our senior year and the 2 years following.  However:  Panthers will scratch and paw their way to the top.  We have some holes, but we are senior laden and built for the long haul. 

For sure.  Nothing to this day for me compares to last years match at New Haven.  Still the loudest wrestling match I have ever been to.  Both team's fans were going crazy and the atmosphere was nuts!!!  Both teams wrestled their butts off and competed in every match.  

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Bulldog89

[Bulldog89]

On 8/28/2023 at 10:01 AM, Galagore said:

Allowing powerhouse schools to enter multiple lineups would choke out more of the average and below programs. Without average and below programs, the sport will cease to exist in a school-sponsored format and will eventually become a club-only system. The goal of HS sports is to create a valuable and beneficial experience to prepare for adulthood. If the experience at one's school does not meet these goals, it may be wise to seek another school or another way to achieve those goals.

Well said.  Just because some schools have more depth than others does not mean those schools get to enter more kids.  Not done in other sports.  Kids like to change schools all the time.  I guess if the kid is stuck on JV, enter the Hight School transfer portal.

[aoberlin]

4 minutes ago, Bulldog89 said:

I guess if the kid is stuck on JV, enter the Hight School transfer portal.

Yeppers.... My poor JV State Place winner just can't make the Varsity lineup because our school is so good.  We need to change the rules.