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aoberlin

States Without Wrestlebacks

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29 minutes ago, Cosgrove said:

Wrong.... those "better" kids sitting in the stand made mistakes and it cost them their medal placement. :)

Or those better kids went to a different part of the state in the regular season, beat 3 state qualifiers (1 medalist), but go through a different semi-state so they ran into somebody that was legitimately better than them in the ticket round. When I coached at Mooresville, I had a state qualifier at 132 that returned to that weight for his senior season. He won all his matches at 132 that year aside from losing to Brayton Lee in the finals of Regionals, earning him a 2 seed. Probably the third best wrestler in the semi-state, but he draws into Nick Lee for the Ticket Round. Season over. Career over. Had to watch not 1, not 2, but 3 kids he beat that season medal over him while he sat in the stands, not to mention others he defeated that lost on Friday night. This is a rarity, I understand, but it wouldn't happen near as often if we had true wrestlebacks. 

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2 minutes ago, Colts said:

The three reasoning above makes no sense.

Comparing basketball or any sport to the other has no justification. No other sport has basketballbacks, but they also dont have injury time or blood time.

No tourney would have to start during school hours, that makes no sense.

Totally off base on 2nd through 8th is irrelevant. Believe it means a lot to college recruiters. State qualifiers and so forth are recruited by their final placement. Few examples Austin Bethal 4X state qualifier no placement wrestled for Wabash, Luke Welch never win a title wrestle for Purdue.

I didn't say they were good reasons, but these factors are part of the framework that the state wrestling series is based upon.    Let me explain in more detail

Point #1. The ruling authority or the IHSAA board that makes decisions on tournament structure mostly are athletic directors with basketball or other sport experience.  They don't come from the wrestling community, and mostly have a basketball background.  They see the wrestling tournament through a basketball lens.   Note, you lose in basketball you're out. Basketball is king in Indiana.  To them, it should be the same in wrestlng, one loss you're out.  The point being,  the wrestling leadership should make decisions on wrestling not ADs who aren't as familiar with it.

 

Point #2.   The state wrestling tournament should start at 9am on Friday and should have wrestlebacks.   But people would miss school.  This is the same for any sport in Indiana.     Every other state I've been to,  you had events when school is in.  Rarely see that in Indiana.

 Point #3.  I think personally placing is important for the similar reasons you mentioned.  But the IHSAA philoposy is seeding doesn't matter.  If you lose early, sorry bad draw but doesn't matter, cause the team better than you advanced.  Doesn't matter if its the #1 or #2 in the state play in sectionals.   This happens in other states.   Anyway   College recruiters dislike the Indiana tournament because theres a lot of kids they want to recruit, but lose early and cant wrestle back to determine there true place.  Again,  Im trying to explain why.  Im not trying to justify it as being right.

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3 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

Or those better kids went to a different part of the state in the regular season, beat 3 state qualifiers (1 medalist), but go through a different semi-state so they ran into somebody that was legitimately better than them in the ticket round. When I coached at Mooresville, I had a state qualifier at 132 that returned to that weight for his senior season. He won all his matches at 132 that year aside from losing to Brayton Lee in the finals of Regionals, earning him a 2 seed. Probably the third best wrestler in the semi-state, but he draws into Nick Lee for the Ticket Round. Season over. Career over. Had to watch not 1, not 2, but 3 kids he beat that season medal over him while he sat in the stands, not to mention others he defeated that lost on Friday night. This is a rarity, I understand, but it wouldn't happen near as often if we had true wrestlebacks. 

Actually this isn't a rarity, that is the problem, this isn't unique at all.  We will see it again this year.

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I was talking to someone last night and he said something that stuck in my head.  They don't seed the basketball tourney at all because of the good old Milan Championship and the great movie Hoosiers.  (Which it is great) So that system is even messed up and we suffer because they compare us to their same flawed system.  What I am saying is we don't have wrestlebacks because of Gene Hackman!

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1 hour ago, Cosgrove said:

I mean the best wrestler always loses and the state champ is usually some SISSY boy hahahaha

I agree that the system in IN puts the STATE CHAMP on top of the podium.  In that sense wrestle-backs are pointless.

However, without wrestle-backs it is absurd to actually 'place' and subsequently 'medal' the top 8 at the State Tournament.  Based on our system the podium should have ONE spot-CHAMPION and that's it.  At State if you lose you should be done in any round.

In fact, only sectional champions should move on, only regional champs and only SS champs.  Lose and go home...right?

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1 minute ago, MOWrestler said:

I agree that the system in IN puts the STATE CHAMP on top of the podium.  In that sense wrestle-backs are pointless.

However, without wrestle-backs it is absurd to actually 'place' and subsequently 'medal' the top 8 at the State Tournament.  Based on our system the podium should have ONE spot-CHAMPION and that's it.  At State if you lose you should be done in any round.

In fact, only sectional champions should move on, only regional champs and only SS champs.  Lose and go home...right?

Perfect point. The rest are losers anyways.

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3 minutes ago, MOWrestler said:

At State if you lose you should be done in any round.

In fact, only sectional champions should move on, only regional champs and only SS champs.  Lose and go home...right?

I mean, can you imagine the massive crowds flooding into Bankers life to see those 4 SS champs battle it out in the two epic rounds of wrestling.  It would be amazing!!!!

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11 minutes ago, MOWrestler said:

I mean, can you imagine the massive crowds flooding into Bankers life to see those 4 SS champs battle it out in the two epic rounds of wrestling.  It would be amazing!!!!

So really it comes down to the easiest path forward with the most amount of revenue.

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3 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

So really it comes down to the easiest path forward with the most amount of revenue.

Frankly, I'm not sure what it comes down to.

I guess I just think the system (whatever its objective) should be logically consistent.  You want a system that picks a STATE CHAMP and doesn't truly rank the other wrestlers, fine.  Win or go home all the way from sectionals to the state finals.

You want a system that places the top 8, at least have wrestlebacks.  This system is not perfect either, but it allows a kid who loses to someone who will place higher to still compete for a lower place.  I'm just saying get rid of the 'death-draw' at SS and the one and done Friday night @ State.

When I wrestled (a long time ago) in the MO State Tournament they had a system where you "followed" a kid who beat you.  If he kept winning and you beat the other kids he beat, you kept moving.  I frankly don't recall exactly how it worked because I did not end up being the state champ, or even the first loser (affectionately called 2nd or runner-up by some).  I'm sure my interest in wrestlebacks is actually because I was such a loser that I want other loser to have a chance to wrestle.

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37 minutes ago, MOWrestler said:

 

When I wrestled (a long time ago) in the MO State Tournament they had a system where you "followed" a kid who beat you.  If he kept winning and you beat the other kids he beat, you kept moving.  I frankly don't recall exactly how it worked because I did not end up being the state champ, or even the first loser (affectionately called 2nd or runner-up by some).  I'm sure my interest in wrestlebacks is actually because I was such a loser that I want other loser to have a chance to wrestle.

MoWrestler,  They had the same system back in Kansas where you followed the kid who beat you.   They had a 16 person draw and if you lost the 1st round,  then you only advanced to the consolation bracket if the guy that beat you won  in qtrs.  My Soph year (1986) I got 4th in regional and the kid who beat me from Emporia, Ks was a #1 seed and he won his next match.  So I got another match.   The process just eliminated a consolation round of wrestling.  That was in 1986 and was the last year of the follow through.  They went to full brackets in 1987.

Anyway, about 4 or 5 years ago,   there was a post on Indianamat where people did research on wrestlebacks.   I did some myself and we looked at full 16 man brackets  in other state tournament and determined what percentage of wrestlers that lost in 1st round would have came back and placed in the top 8.   If I recall there was a range of 15% to 20% of wrestlers that lost 1st round would come back and place in top 8.   I looked at 4  state tournaments of all weights or 56 brackets.  I  was surprised to see it in about 3 or 4 instances,  a kid came back through wrestle backs and got 3rd.   Anyway,  we concluded from our limited research that in 15% to 20% of the time in Indiana,  the kid that places in the top 8 in Indiana is not  the best wrestler and got his place through the luck of the draw as a result of the variation of competition at different semi-states.

This is specifically what Im talking about when I referenced  the better kid loses early on as a result of no wrestle backs.    

 

 

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I would argue that it would be a higher percentage due to the fact that some kids get performance anxiety or beat by a mental aspect. I think that some kids beat themselves. For example, if the wrestler knew they wouldn't be out of the tournament if they lose, then I think that would have an impact on their performance. There is a lot of pressure for kids in both the ticket round of semi-state and the first round of state. They don't want to be the kid that losses that is supposed to win! If you put wrestle backs into play, that takes some of that pressure off of the kid. I believe that this 15%-20% number would be absent of this factor and could be much higher in this example.

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I don’t think the current system should be changed bc a few coaches are not in favor of the current system. 

 

I believe the current system brings the cream of the crop to the top. Handle the pressure, you move on. And yes, I see the value of seeing what a kid is made up of by coming back through the Cons bracket.....isn’t that what ISWA for? 

 

#noclasswrestling

#keepthebloodrounds

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Jeff Longere said:

I don’t think the current system should be changed bc a few coaches are not in favor of the current system. 

 

I believe the current system brings the cream of the crop to the top. Handle the pressure, you move on. And yes, I see the value of seeing what a kid is made up of by coming back through the Cons bracket.....isn’t that what ISWA for? 

 

#noclasswrestling

#keepthebloodrounds

 

 

Pretty much hate your first post. Keep up the good work. And by a few do you mean most that have been around a while.

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40 minutes ago, Jeff Longere said:

I don’t think the current system should be changed bc a few coaches are not in favor of the current system. 

 

I believe the current system brings the cream of the crop to the top. Handle the pressure, you move on. And yes, I see the value of seeing what a kid is made up of by coming back through the Cons bracket.....isn’t that what ISWA for? 

 

#noclasswrestling

#keepthebloodrounds

 

 

If it was up to the coaches, i bet a super majority of coaches would vote to have wrestlebacks at the state tournament. 

And also, it brings the guys with good  draws, not necessarily  the best wrestlers or cream of the crop as you call it.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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1 hour ago, Jeff Longere said:

I don’t think the current system should be changed bc a few coaches are not in favor of the current system. 

 

I believe the current system brings the cream of the crop to the top. Handle the pressure, you move on. And yes, I see the value of seeing what a kid is made up of by coming back through the Cons bracket.....isn’t that what ISWA for? 

Might want to check out Navy80's post on the Evansville SS.  Maybe he's just another lone wolf coach looking for wrestle backs.  But probably NOT.

Navy80-"This semi state can be summed up with one sentence... IHSAA NEEDS TO ADD WRESTLE-BACKS AT SEMI STATE!! We could see a state champion lose to another state champion in the ticket round. Doesn't get any crazier than that! "

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1 hour ago, Jeff Longere said:

I don’t think the current system should be changed bc a few coaches are not in favor of the current system. 

 

I believe the current system brings the cream of the crop to the top. Handle the pressure, you move on. And yes, I see the value of seeing what a kid is made up of by coming back through the Cons bracket.....isn’t that what ISWA for? 

 

#noclasswrestling

#keepthebloodrounds

 

 

Why you gotta make it about class?

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1 hour ago, Jeff Longere said:

I don’t think the current system should be changed bc a few coaches are not in favor of the current system. 

 

I believe the current system brings the cream of the crop to the top. Handle the pressure, you move on. And yes, I see the value of seeing what a kid is made up of by coming back through the Cons bracket.....isn’t that what ISWA for? 

 

#noclasswrestling

#keepthebloodrounds

 

 

ISWA is not for wrestlebacks, the spring tourneys is just about mat time. None of the kids even wrestle their competitive weight. I still have yet to hear a logistical reason not to have wrestlebacks.

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On 1/30/2018 at 9:43 AM, MOWrestler said:

I mean, can you imagine the massive crowds flooding into Bankers life to see those 4 SS champs battle it out in the two epic rounds of wrestling.  It would be amazing!!!!

We could just wrestle sectionals then take all 32 champs and go directly to state finals. 

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There is a simple way to incorporate fair wrestlebacks that the IHSAA would probably consider.

1st - Sectionals - First round pigtails avoid top seeds.  (Why wasn't this implemented state-wide years ago?)

2nd - Semistate - Quarterfinal losers wrestle back to fifth. (Adds about 1 hour, and they've done this before)  Top 5 qualify for state.  First round of state starts with 4s vs 5s. (Adds about 1.5 hours on Friday night and should increase attendance/$)

3rd - Regionals - The 8-man bracket is really easy to do full wrestlebacks to 3rd.  I put this last because I feel it is the least necessary.  For example, if you get 2nd at sectionals and lose first round to a 3rd place finisher, then you are behind 1 from your sectional and 3 from the other, so not top 4 anyway.  But for simplicity, it would be easy to implement wrestlebacks here.

One of the big points to make when proposing to the IHSAA is that they determine the team champions for each level based on the individual placements, so they should want those to be as accurate as possible at every level.  Wrestlebacks at regionals and semistate will help determine the team standings.  And it will more fairly designate the alternate than the current flawed system.

NOTE:  Wrestlebacks at state is a separate issue to be discussed/debated.  Let's get the path to state fixed first.

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