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Any change of hearts?

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It's crazy that those numbers almost mirror the total population of each class. Which is BTW what you would staistically expect, which shows that things in terms of qualifiers is realitivily fair.

The total population of the schools is BY FAR the biggest advantage big schools have, yet when it comes down to looking at the numbers we should ignore that fact and just say that each team enters 14 kids at sectionals?

You have to take the total population into account. That was the original group that big schools have to choose from. The problem with doing this of course is that the facts show a slight disadvantage to 1A and 3A schools and a slight advantage to being from a 2A school, which doesn't fit the class fans narritive, so you guys choose to ignore that fact.

The numbers are similar every year, and every year the numbers mirror the total populations. Which again is staistically what you would expect.

 

Why aren't 11% of the placers from 1a?

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I personally agree with this statement here. The atmosphere inside Bankers Life Fieldhouse was incredible. All eyes on one mat watching one match. I understand the classed system would give a somewhat better chance for smaller schools to compete for a state title, but imagine having another or maybe two state championship matches going on during Red vs. Lee or Garcia vs. Murphy. The building wouldn't erupt like it did, and it would look rather awkward. I'm sure champions like Chad Red, Mason Parris, Asa Garcia, and place-winners/qualifiers like Brycen Denny and Dristin McCubbins feel great knowing they went toe-to-toe with Indiana's best in the wildest atmosphere with all eyes on them at most times, in comparison to facing lesser quality opponents and calling themselves state qualifiers because it was easier to make it to the big tournament. At the end of the day, the class system would effectively diminish the sport in Indiana.

The building erupted last year when Joe Lee beat Brandon James. The building erupted this year in the quarters when Guhl beat Woods. The building erupted when Gunsett almost put Red to his back.

Never once did I say he came from a small school I said "from a po-dunk school in the middle of a corn field," which Gibson Southern very much so is.

I will make you a deal Y2! I will ardently support class wrestling in every way possible if you agree to step down as a moderator! Deal?

Then the site would be shut down...how about I just shut the website down for just YOU? Deal?

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The building erupted last year when Joe Lee beat Brandon James. The building erupted this year in the quarters when Guhl beat Woods. The building erupted when Gunsett almost put Red to his back.

Then the site would be shut down...how about I just shut the website down for just YOU? Deal?

crowd also was cheering against Keyuan Murphy every round. Especially on Friday Night. The crowd also errupted when rumph was pulling off his upsets. But what does this mean. Will this happen in a classed state tournament? Is that the question? 

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It's crazy that those numbers almost mirror the total population of each class. Which is BTW what you would staistically expect, which shows that things in terms of qualifiers is realitivily fair.

The total population of the schools is BY FAR the biggest advantage big schools have, yet when it comes down to looking at the numbers we should ignore that fact and just say that each team enters 14 kids at sectionals?

You have to take the total population into account. That was the original group that big schools have to choose from. The problem with doing this of course is that the facts show a slight disadvantage to 1A and 3A schools and a slight advantage to being from a 2A school, which doesn't fit the class fans narritive, so you guys choose to ignore that fact.

The numbers are similar every year, and every year the numbers mirror the total populations. Which again is staistically what you would expect.

I would expect that 1A teams bring about 27% of the state qualifiers since they had that percentage of athletes in the state tournament. Everyone has an equal shot of making it to state, you only need to win 5 matches to go to state. Why is it so difficult for 1A wrestlers to win five matches to qualify for state?

 

If total population affects state qualifiers then you are telling me you are for class wrestling. We have classed football because school size affects the teams, you are saying school size affects individuals...so thus we should class.

FYI over the past 6 years only 4.76% of the state placers are from 1A. My how your "equal" statement falls drastically.

crowd also was cheering against Keyuan Murphy every round. Especially on Friday Night. The crowd also errupted when rumph was pulling off his upsets. But what does this mean. Will this happen in a classed state tournament? Is that the question? 

As the wrealwrestler why a crowd erupting means so much....just pointed to a fallacy in his argument.

 

The crowd will always erupt when upsets or big things happen, that's the nature of sporting events.

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For the sake of argument, what are the reasons that most states have gone to class wrestling? What advantages to class wrestling did they see? Who are some of the more recent states to move to class wrestling? There must be something to it....

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The fairness argument as it relates to state qualifiers is hollow at best. How is it fair that 11% of the wrestlers/student body should make up 33% of the state qualifiers?

 

Sure there are good arguments for class wrestling (I agree big schools do have an advantage) I just haven't been convinced this is the solution to any of what ails Indiana wrestling as a whole. Every classed state that Y2 has provided statistics for also has rising forfeit rates, so it just doesn't suggest that this will have any major effect. (You may interpret that differently) We are actually doing better on forfeits with the 2/3 majority of our total student population than the classed states around us. (by 1 whole forfeit) So we're talking about modifying our existing system to accomodate 11% of the student body, at the expense of the 2/3 majority.

That 11% contributes 27% of the sectional participants. The 62% only represents 39% of the sectional participants.

 

If you think big schools have an advantage then that is a reason for classed sports. On top of that our forfeits have SKYROCKETED over the past 3-4 years. When I started figuring the forfeit percentage we were averaging about 2 forfeits per team, now it's almost 3.

For the sake of argument, what are the reasons that most states have gone to class wrestling? What advantages to class wrestling did they see? Who are some of the more recent states to move to class wrestling? There must be something to it....

Most states went to classed wrestling 20-40 years ago. The only recent ones I have seen are New York(about 10 years ago I think) and Texas(within the past 4 years). Illinois has expanded from 2 to 3 classes within the past 5 years also.

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Is it just us, New Jersey, and California that are one class? And which state has the most classes. I thought I heard taht some states have 6 classes. That seems a little overboard.

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The building erupted last year when Joe Lee beat Brandon James. The building erupted this year in the quarters when Guhl beat Woods. The building erupted when Gunsett almost put Red to his back.

Then the site would be shut down...how about I just shut the website down for just YOU? Deal?

Ouch... Just trying to lighten the mood. No need to threaten me and take down all of my posts.

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Why aren't 11% of the placers from 1a?

That's are really fair question. Placers/ Champs are the only time you see a statistically significant difference in what you would expect. There are a couple of explanations for that though.

1. Would be that there is an advantage at that level to being at a big school, this may be the case.

2. I am sure there is a socioeconomic component to kids getting to this level as well. Many of the big schools that do well are located where successful people have clustered to raise their kids, so if that is a factor, which I belive it is, it might be seen explain the drop.

3. The group we are discussing is so small that the level of athlete that has the ability to place/ be a champion are simply not found with-in the population of some of the small schools. I would need a more in depth knowledge of statistics, but if we take natural ability into account at all, I would be willing to bet that could explain at least some of the dip in numbers.

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That's are really fair question. Placers/ Champs are the only time you see a statistically significant difference in what you would expect. There are a couple of explanations for that though.

1. Would be that there is an advantage at that level to being at a big school, this may be the case.

2. I am sure there is a socioeconomic component to kids getting to this level as well. Many of the big schools that do well are located where successful people have clustered to raise their kids, so if that is a factor, which I belive it is, it might be seen explain the drop.

3. The group we are discussing is so small that the level of athlete that has the ability to place/ be a champion are simply not found with-in the population of some of the small schools. I would need a more in depth knowledge of statistics, but if we take natural ability into account at all, I would be willing to bet that could explain at least some of the dip in numbers.

 

If there is truly no advantage for the larger schools, as you believe, then your 11% would follow through all levels, including placers and champs.  It does not, and never has.

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That's are really fair question. Placers/ Champs are the only time you see a statistically significant difference in what you would expect. There are a couple of explanations for that though.

1. Would be that there is an advantage at that level to being at a big school, this may be the case.

2. I am sure there is a socioeconomic component to kids getting to this level as well. Many of the big schools that do well are located where successful people have clustered to raise their kids, so if that is a factor, which I belive it is, it might be seen explain the drop.

3. The group we are discussing is so small that the level of athlete that has the ability to place/ be a champion are simply not found with-in the population of some of the small schools. I would need a more in depth knowledge of statistics, but if we take natural ability into account at all, I would be willing to bet that could explain at least some of the dip in numbers.

1. So you are saying let's class wrestling

2. Feel free to find this out

3. How come when talking about the top 7% of the wrestlers we are "fine" and when talking about the top 3.5% of wrestlers we are out of whack? If the state qualifiers are evenly distributed, so should state placers and champs.

But that's how a dictatorship works, silly.

This is my website, I can let whoever I want join and be a part of it. I pay the bills, you do not. I just so happen to let 5,000+ people on here with a few exceptions. 

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Not sure which class thread to post to, but it would be interesting to see a random survey of IN state Placers (not champs) that are still in high school and also a survey of past Placers who are now 10 years removed from high school days and ask this question..

 

Would you trade you 2nd thru 8th place IN medal for a state championship medal in any Georgia class?

 

I realize this does not include the same amount of kids from Podunk High as the data show they don't make it to state at the same rate as Huge High but would still be interesting.

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Not sure which class thread to post to, but it would be interesting to see a random survey of IN state Placers (not champs) that are still in high school and also a survey of past Placers who are now 10 years removed from high school days and ask this question..

 

Would you trade you 2nd thru 8th place IN medal for a state championship medal in any Georgia class?

 

I realize this does not include the same amount of kids from Podunk High as the data show they don't make it to state at the same rate as Huge High but would still be interesting.

I concur. Y2, would it be at all possible for you to enact this? This is not a joke by any means but rather serious response to a feasible solution to the disease of a debate that so plagues your website.

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Not sure which class thread to post to, but it would be interesting to see a random survey of IN state Placers (not champs) that are still in high school and also a survey of past Placers who are now 10 years removed from high school days and ask this question..

 

Would you trade you 2nd thru 8th place IN medal for a state championship medal in any Georgia class?

 

I realize this does not include the same amount of kids from Podunk High as the data show they don't make it to state at the same rate as Huge High but would still be interesting.

And we should also survey them to see if they would be for one weigh-in during November for the whole season.

 

We should also survey the Georgia kids and see if their medals are tainted, if they threw them away, or feel slighted by their system.

 

We can also survey kids from Monrovia, Bishop Dwenger, Snider, Lafayette Central Catholic, etc if their state football medals are tainted and they feel like lesser humans because they aren't true champions.

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This is my website, I can let whoever I want join and be a part of it. I pay the bills, you do not. I just so happen to let 5,000+ people on here with a few exceptions. 

You encourage freedom of expression, correct?

 

You give jabs left and right. You're a tough young man, I'm sure you can take them as well.

 

We all appreciate the hard work you put into this website, that's not in question whatsoever.

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I concur. Y2, would it be at all possible for you to enact this? This is not a joke by any means but rather serious response to a feasible solution to the disease of a debate that so plagues your website.

So you think surveying 7% of the past wrestlers will help this debate and it would wash away years of data?

You encourage freedom of expression, correct?

 

You give jabs left and right. You're a tough young man, I'm sure you can take them as well.

 

We all appreciate the hard work you put into this website, that's not in question whatsoever.

No there is not freedom of expression here, hence why things are deleted. This is a dictatorship, plain and simple. You have the freedom to post on here until you do something stupid.

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So you think surveying 7% of the past wrestlers will help this debate and it would wash away years of data?

No there is not freedom of expression here, hence why things are deleted. This is a dictatorship, plain and simple. You have the freedom to post on here until you do something stupid.

I would edit this to be if they would rather have a state champion medal in a classed system or their actual placement and had the potential opportunity to wrestle under the lights. I think, at the end of the day, this decision should be made by the athletes it is going to affect as well as by those have experienced state competition. After all, the sport is about the athlete, not the school, coaches, or fans. They are simply bystanders to the abilities of the young men and women who push themselves to their physical limits in order to be successful.

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Leave the individual state finals as it is. If you want to be the best the best, then beat the best. We had 4 state qualifiers and 2 of those placed. No its not easy to get kids to Indy, let alone place especially from small school.. There has been 1 state champ at Prairie Heights (Aaron Ramey). Will there be another, I don't know but we are going to give everything we have to get one. Build your schedule and seek the right kids for wrestling. Build the fan base. I truly think our schedule helps get qualifiers and place winners. Get kids busy in the off season and you will see a huge difference. Rasler put in a ton of time since semi-state last season and now he is one of the top 138 pounders in the state. Blakeley has a motor that never quits. Another top wrestler at 182, with losses to Eli, James, Kohler and Worm (split). Kids have to put in the time. It would be a disgrace to go to classed individual finals! I do however love the Classed Team State Duals

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I would edit this to be if they would rather have a state champion medal in a classed system or their actual placement and had the potential opportunity to wrestle under the lights. I think, at the end of the day, this decision should be made by the athletes it is going to affect as well as by those have experienced state competition. After all, the sport is about the athlete, not the school, coaches, or fans. They are simply bystanders to the abilities of the young men and women who push themselves to their physical limits in order to be successful.

Exactly what my statement/question was about earlier that got overlooked.

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Still haven't heard why most others are classed and we are not? Does it bring more competitors and fans in a classed system? Are most states just not as smart as us? There must be some reason why we are one of the last to class.

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That's are really fair question. Placers/ Champs are the only time you see a statistically significant difference in what you would expect. There are a couple of explanations for that though.

1. Would be that there is an advantage at that level to being at a big school, this may be the case.

2. I am sure there is a socioeconomic component to kids getting to this level as well. Many of the big schools that do well are located where successful people have clustered to raise their kids, so if that is a factor, which I belive it is, it might be seen explain the drop.

3. The group we are discussing is so small that the level of athlete that has the ability to place/ be a champion are simply not found with-in the population of some of the small schools. I would need a more in depth knowledge of statistics, but if we take natural ability into account at all, I would be willing to bet that could explain at least some of the dip in numbers.

This year using REAL numbers with forfeits taken out here are some interesting statistics

1308 3A wrestlers at sectional, 10.63% made it to state

1098 2A wrestlers at sectional, 5.83% made it to state

888 1A wrestlers at sectional, 2.36% made it to state

 

That means statistically a wrestler from a 3A school has a 5x better shot of going to state.

Still haven't heard why most others are classed and we are not? Does it bring more competitors and fans in a classed system? Are most states just not as smart as us? There must be some reason why we are one of the last to class.

Because those states feel that school size is an advantage and thus classed their athletics.

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Yea, we maybe had the greatest in Indiana history.   But how many theoretical matches do not occur at the state tournament because we eliminate the wrestle backs due to the limitations set in place by having a one class tournament.   State is a celebration of the best wrestlers in the state.    We bring the top 5% of talent in to one spot, but 1/2 of these guys only get one chance to showcase their skills.  That's a lot of good wrestling that the fans  and college coaches don't get to see.   That's a 100s of matches. 

 

 

Joe,

 

Missouri switched from 3 classes to 4 classes about 12 years ago.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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