pjayroza Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) I guess it depends on your end game here. 1.) If your end game is to get more fans and generate more revenue for the sport - then I believe a 2 classed system is the way to go. (I have been persuaded) 2.) If your end game is to have one TRUE champion - then IMO a single classed system is the way to go. (Still not persuaded) I will not stop supportting wrestling if they move to a classed system. However, it may make me rethink going down to indy to watch it. (You may think I am not a true fan, I am just trying to be honest.) Please note my one empty seat would be filled by 40 others who want to see a family member participate. Edited February 18, 2015 by pjayroza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1114 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 So as long as we have one TRUE champion you could care less if there are 100 fans watching or 15,000...is that what you are saying? Refer back to my comment that you quoted for my answer. I guess it depends on your end game here. 1.) If your end game is to get more fans and generate more revenue for the sport - then I believe a 2 classed system is the way to go. (I have been persuaded) 2.) If your end game is to have one TRUE champion - then IMO a single classed system is the way to go. (Still not persuaded) I will not stop supportting wrestling if they move to a classed system. However, it may make me rethink going down to indy to watch it. (You may think I am not a true fan, I am just trying to be honest.) Please note my one empty seat would be filled by 40 others who want to see a family member participate. When I said the state will lose fans, I meant exactly what you said. I will probably not go to Indy to watch the state finals just like you, and agree there will be at least 40 people waiting for my seat. I will also not stop following the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Would a 2 (or 3) class system result in the the IHSAA to eliminate one round of the state tournament series? If so would one less round basically mean the overall IHSAA take (# of total butts in the seats throughout the series) is comparable to what we currently see in the one class system. You may cause some kids to go further than before which will keep their relatives paying another weekend compared to now, but by eliminating one round of the series you have taken away an additional weekend of butts in seats that we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Refer back to my comment that you quoted for my answer. When I said the state will lose fans, I meant exactly what you said. I will probably not go to Indy to watch the state finals just like you, and agree there will be at least 40 people waiting for my seat. I will also not stop following the sport. I don't understand...all the best kids are still there. Double the wrestling. Pros outweigh Cons in my opinion. IU89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I am curious is this an argument in track, swimming, golf or any of the other individual sports? It would be interesting to see how other sports feel about this issue. Also as a small school coach I have been wondering this. When my guys loose at sectionals, regionals, semi-state, state, where ever, am I supposed to feel that they were somehow cheated by the system? Currently I just tend to think when my guys get knocked out that they simply need to get better if they want to make it further in the tournament.i Is the better option to tell them that they need to work harder, but also that they are getting screwed over by the set-up of our tournament? I can tell you we had two kids go to semi-state, both lost. I thought a lot about why they lost, the quality of their opponents, their ability to step up to the occasion, their skill level, I even thought about how difficult our state tournament is. I never once thought to myself, man if these guys just went to a bigger school they would be state qualifiers. If our school wasn't so small these two would have made it for sure, I guess I just don't understand the mentality behind classing an individual sport. Irishman1114 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1114 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I don't understand...all the best kids are still there. Double the wrestling. Pros outweigh Cons in my opinion. If you want to double the wrestling take 8 from semi-state. Just an example of MY con.....I think it would be an absolute travesty to walk out of bankers life fieldhouse on Saturday evening saying, "I wish I would have got to see 1A Champion Joe Lee wrestle 2A champion Brandon James." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwoodjc89 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Irishman, is it about the matches YOU get to see at the state tournament then? Or is it the possibility of growing the sport, thus increasing the level of wrestling Indiana more important? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwoodjc89 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I love our single class state tournament, it may be one of the coolest events in high school sports. I have become a fan of the idea of classing over the last couple of years because of the opinion that it will increase participation in smaller schools. Increasing exposure of our sport to more people. Eventually raising the level of wrestling in Indiana. It very well may be an easier path for small school wrestlers to make it to a 2 class state tournament. I can see that as more small school kids see that reaching state is a possibility that these kids will put in more offseason work to be one of the wrestlers to earn one of these spots. It will create more competition for these spots as time goes on. Increasing the difficulty of reaching state in the smaller class. There are also more state births available at the same time in the larger class. Giving more kids the opportunity to be a state qualifier, the level of difficulty will increase as our level of wrestling increases. That is why I am for class wrestling... bell103 and bog190 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1114 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Irishman, is it about the matches YOU get to see at the state tournament then? Or is it the possibility of growing the sport, thus increasing the level of wrestling Indiana more important? I'm unsure of how adding a second class would grow the sport. If young kids are only getting into the sport because they have the possibility of winning a state title because of the size of the school, I think they are getting into the sport for the wrong reason. If I believed adding a class would grow the sport I would be all for it, but I don't think it would add any wrestlers that would not have already been interested. And....yes sir, it is about the matches WE get to see at the state tournament. I love our single class state tournament, it may be one of the coolest events in high school sports. I have become a fan of the idea of classing over the last couple of years because of the opinion that it will increase participation in smaller schools. Increasing exposure of our sport to more people. Eventually raising the level of wrestling in Indiana. It very well may be an easier path for small school wrestlers to make it to a 2 class state tournament. I can see that as more small school kids see that reaching state is a possibility that these kids will put in more offseason work to be one of the wrestlers to earn one of these spots. It will create more competition for these spots as time goes on. Increasing the difficulty of reaching state in the smaller class. There are also more state births available at the same time in the larger class. Giving more kids the opportunity to be a state qualifier, the level of difficulty will increase as our level of wrestling increases. That is why I am for class wrestling... I understand the thinking behind the class system, I just disagree. I think there are other ways to get young kids involved. I think taking a young child to the state tournament and introducing him to the atmosphere of Fri and Sat and letting them know if you work your butt off that could be you one day will work just as well. BeastMode#31 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I am curious is this an argument in track, swimming, golf or any of the other individual sports? It would be interesting to see how other sports feel about this issue. Also as a small school coach I have been wondering this. When my guys loose at sectionals, regionals, semi-state, state, where ever, am I supposed to feel that they were somehow cheated by the system? Currently I just tend to think when my guys get knocked out that they simply need to get better if they want to make it further in the tournament.i Is the better option to tell them that they need to work harder, but also that they are getting screwed over by the set-up of our tournament? I can tell you we had two kids go to semi-state, both lost. I thought a lot about why they lost, the quality of their opponents, their ability to step up to the occasion, their skill level, I even thought about how difficult our state tournament is. I never once thought to myself, man if these guys just went to a bigger school they would be state qualifiers. If our school wasn't so small these two would have made it for sure, I guess I just don't understand the mentality behind classing an individual sport. If you feel your kids have the ability to make it to state then you look at yourself as a coach and ask yourself how you failed the kids. If you feel your kids didn't have the ability to go to state, then you do nothing as that is the system we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldandbroke Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The IHSAA (and some hardcore fans) say the purpose of the individual tourney is to crown one true champion at every weight and that wrestle backs are not needed because of that......so if we are only worried about the one true champion then let's quit bringing all these losers forward from sectional,regional and semi-state......no more second third and fourth place guys need to move forward....they are just filler matches..........who wants to see em anyway...........(sarcasm). I wonder how well the sport would grow???? Y2CJ41 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I am curious is this an argument in track, swimming, golf or any of the other individual sports? It would be interesting to see how other sports feel about this issue. Also as a small school coach I have been wondering this. When my guys loose at sectionals, regionals, semi-state, state, where ever, am I supposed to feel that they were somehow cheated by the system? Currently I just tend to think when my guys get knocked out that they simply need to get better if they want to make it further in the tournament.i Is the better option to tell them that they need to work harder, but also that they are getting screwed over by the set-up of our tournament? I can tell you we had two kids go to semi-state, both lost. I thought a lot about why they lost, the quality of their opponents, their ability to step up to the occasion, their skill level, I even thought about how difficult our state tournament is. I never once thought to myself, man if these guys just went to a bigger school they would be state qualifiers. If our school wasn't so small these two would have made it for sure, I guess I just don't understand the mentality behind classing an individual sport. As we have said before, Track and X-country both have strong support for classing amongst their coaches. The award classed all state awards in cross country and classed coach of the year awards. No coach in their right mind would tell their kid that the system is screwing them over. No one has suggested you tell your kids they are getting screwed over. Bringing up a statement like that is silly attempt to appeal to emotions. The fact of the matter is that the two kids you speak of would have had a greater chance to qualify at a bigger school, if that bigger school had a) more coaches, better facilities, c) better practice partners, d) a tougher schedule, e) less pressure to compete in multiple sports, etc, etc, etc. Assuming of course, that both put in the same amount of work at both schools. bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldandbroke Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Four Semi-state Champions at each weight square off lose a match you go home.....we could get the hole thing done by lunch time on Saturday and because we eliminated all the lesser matches it will draw more fans and kids to the sport... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwoodjc89 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) I'm unsure of how adding a second class would grow the sport. If young kids are only getting into the sport because they have the possibility of winning a state title because of the size of the school, I think they are getting into the sport for the wrong reason. If I believed adding a class would grow the sport I would be all for it, but I don't think it would add any wrestlers that would not have already been interested. And....yes sir, it is about the matches WE get to see at the state tournament. I understand the thinking behind the class system, I just disagree. I think there are other ways to get young kids involved. I think taking a young child to the state tournament and introducing him to the atmosphere of Fri and Sat and letting them know if you work your butt off that could be you one day will work just as well. Do you not think people are already bringing young children to the state tournament and letting them know if they work their butt off they could someday wrestle at the state tournament? What if twice as many people were bringing young people to the state tournament and letting them know that they could one day wrestle there if they work their butt off? Edited February 18, 2015 by bwoodjc89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) I'm unsure of how adding a second class would grow the sport. If young kids are only getting into the sport because they have the possibility of winning a state title because of the size of the school, I think they are getting into the sport for the wrong reason. If I believed adding a class would grow the sport I would be all for it, but I don't think it would add any wrestlers that would not have already been interested. And....yes sir, it is about the matches WE get to see at the state tournament. I understand the thinking behind the class system, I just disagree. I think there are other ways to get young kids involved. I think taking a young child to the state tournament and introducing him to the atmosphere of Fri and Sat and letting them know if you work your butt off that could be you one day will work just as well. I coached a young man that went to multiple state finals as a youngster. He was very talented. Talented enough to qualify for state a couple of times. He has told me since that he thought the state meet was out of reach. Why? Our school had had 3 total state qualifier (all before his time), a parade of coaches, no real weight room or weight program and marginal school and community support. In short, he didn't think he could run with the big dogs even though some of those factors changed while he went through high school. Edited February 18, 2015 by KarlHungus randalllynch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1114 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Where are all of my PRO 1 class backers at? Hahaha, have they gone to the dark side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Where are all of my PRO 1 class backers at? Hahaha, have they gone to the dark side? They are printing off all the participation ribbons in preparation for multi-class. Kinda like they do at IHSWCA team state. I do have to say it though, 1A teams get some nice participation ribbons. bwoodjc89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1114 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 They are printing off all the participation ribbons in preparation for multi-class. Kinda like they do at IHSWCA team state. I do have to say it though, 1A teams get some nice participation ribbons. You, sir, are probably correct. Y2CJ41 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I think wrestle backs are more important than a class system. That should be more of a priority. And I don't really think any of you can have a valid argument against them. People have been wanting it for years, what is stopping it? Why does the IHSAA not take into consideration anything suggested to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjayroza Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Where are all of my PRO 1 class backers at? Hahaha, have they gone to the dark side? I've said my piece. No need to beat a dead horse. Agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) As we have said before, Track and X-country both have strong support for classing amongst their coaches. The award classed all state awards in cross country and classed coach of the year awards. No coach in their right mind would tell their kid that the system is screwing them over. No one has suggested you tell your kids they are getting screwed over. Bringing up a statement like that is silly attempt to appeal to emotions. The fact of the matter is that the two kids you speak of would have had a greater chance to qualify at a bigger school, if that bigger school had a) more coaches, better facilities, c) better practice partners, d) a tougher schedule, e) less pressure to compete in multiple sports, etc, etc, etc. Assuming of course, that both put in the same amount of work at both schools. What would be the argument for classes in track and in cross country? Bigger schools get to practice on better surfaces? Proximity to Dick's Sporting Goods allows larger schools a better opportunity to purchase top of the line track shoes. What disadvantages are faced by the small school kids in track or CC? I coached a young man that went to multiple state finals as a youngster. He was very talented. Talented enough to qualify for state a couple of times. He has told me since that he thought the state meet was out of reach. Why? Our school had had 3 total state qualifier (all before his time), a parade of coaches, no real weight room or weight program and marginal school and community support. In short, he didn't think he could run with the big dogs even though some of those factors changed while he went through high school. Ill bet he was kicking himself in the butt for having a quitters mentality when you guys beat the adversity holding your athletes back and won two state titles in the last five years. Edited February 18, 2015 by buscowrestling BeastMode#31 and Super_Fan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 This topic is very entertaining I like the passion on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 What would be the argument for classes in track in cross country? Bigger schools get to practice on better surfaces? Proximity to Dick's Sporting Goods allows larger schools a better opportunity to purchase top of the line track shoes. What disadvantages are faced by the small school kids in track or CC? Ill bet he was kicking himself in the butt for having a quitters mentality when you guys beat the adversity holding your athletes back and won two state titles in the last five years. Ask Dock? He is kicking himself. And even by beating the odds, we still had 7 kids on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I think wrestle backs are more important than a class system. That should be more of a priority. And I don't really think any of you can have a valid argument against them. People have been wanting it for years, what is stopping it? Why does the IHSAA not take into consideration anything suggested to them? Much like the travel rule a proposal to change would probably be best if it came from either a group of sport coaching associations or a prominent principal...or Bobby Cox comes up with this hairbrained idea. As far as wrestle-backs...well as of right now I think I have a lot better chance of making 112lbs like I did in high school than us getting wrestle-backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) I think the Pro class wrestling argument won. But Im throwing in the towel. Edited February 18, 2015 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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