3A team Seeding at IHSWCA State Duals?

[maligned]

How wasn't the Cathedral vs. Franklin match within two weeks of Cathedral's last football game?

If you saw my original post, I misunderstood your question.  It was 2 weeks exactly; that's what I intended to write in the example.  14 days and access to 10 practices when only 5 are required...same standard as we've used in genius.

I edited it thinking I had made a mistake, so I'm not even sure now what I wrote.  All this to say...I believe the coaches' committee will consider the Franklin/Cathedral head-to-head over the rankings because it happened between rankings and the time of seeding and a full 2 weeks after football (not less than).

[Y2CJ41]

Either way seeding four someone is not going to be happy. If you seed six then this really isn't a problem as a 4/5 seed will wrestle anyway.

[maligned]

Either way seeding four someone is not going to be happy. If you seed six then this really isn't a problem as a 4/5 seed will wrestle anyway.

 

right...it works in 3A; but not the others, where things aren't as clear as people believe 3A to be.  A team like New Prairie, who has their whole team back and are crushing people right now, ends up against Yorktown or Leo first round guaranteed just because the rankings haven't taken shape yet.  They may be the second or third best but have no access to a random draw if 6 are seeded.

My point is that if Cathedral is #5, they're going to be wrestling someone in the first round strong enough to be #1, no matter who it is.  In my opinion it's too late to make adjustments to procedures just because the math comes out wrong in one class.  In the end, I don't think the coaches will make last-minute changes because there's no scenario where it's simple, straightforward, and fair for all classes; and they've been clear in their discussions that simple and straightforward is what they want.

[Y2CJ41]

You are bringing up quite a few faults in the system in your post.

 

1. Why are we using basically preseason rankings to determine seeds?

We are doing the draw a full two weeks in advance based off very sketchy rankings. Why not give it another week as things are starting to settle in a little before doing the draw?

 

2. Why weren't the rankings coordinated with the draw in some manner?

Why wasn't this planned out better to use fresh rankings instead of stale ones to determine the seeding?

 

3. Why aren't there provisions that allow the committee to seed up to 6 or even the whole thing?

Couldn't you ask the coaches participating if they want to seed six? If you rub one of them the wrong way they are likely not to return. You could even just ask the rankings people to rank the eight schools in the event for a truer seeding.

 

4. Using the rankings can provide some inaccurate data.

As stated in #3, the seeds should be considered with only the teams competing and not any others(Merrillville, Crown Point, Carroll, etc).

 

 

[tskin]

I will have update today as to what the committee has been talking about this week based on all these valid points posted here.  So some things people have been pointing out might be taken care of.  Great ideas coaches.

 

 

[maligned]

You are bringing up quite a few faults in the system in your post.

 

1. Why are we using basically preseason rankings to determine seeds?

We are doing the draw a full two weeks in advance based off very sketchy rankings. Why not give it another week as things are starting to settle in a little before doing the draw?

 

2. Why weren't the rankings coordinated with the draw in some manner?

Why wasn't this planned out better to use fresh rankings instead of stale ones to determine the seeding?

 

3. Why aren't there provisions that allow the committee to seed up to 6 or even the whole thing?

Couldn't you ask the coaches participating if they want to seed six? If you rub one of them the wrong way they are likely not to return. You could even just ask the rankings people to rank the eight schools in the event for a truer seeding.

 

4. Using the rankings can provide some inaccurate data.

As stated in #3, the seeds should be considered with only the teams competing and not any others(Merrillville, Crown Point, Carroll, etc).

 

I definitely think there are some things that could be done or could have been done differently.  I was more trying to outline why, considering where we stand today, you're possibly going to see the simple procedures and nothing more.  Again, I agree that detailed seeding with geographic considerations for first round could be accomplished.  But for the reasons I gave about coaches' concerns with the process for those items; I'm not sure it will happen this year.  I think you got that from Tyson's previous messages, as well.

[tskin]

Ok the seeding committee has listened to the requests and we will use the next rankings to seed the IHSWCA Team State Duals.  We are still discussing the other options mentioned here and with using the next ranknings that should incorporate more of this seasons data into the seeds whether or not we seed 4 or 8. 

 

Thanks

[ontherise219]

Ok the seeding committee has listened to the requests and we will use the next rankings to seed the IHSWCA Team State Duals.  We are still discussing the other options mentioned here and with using the next ranknings that should incorporate more of this seasons data into the seeds whether or not we seed 4 or 8. 

 

Thanks

Im not a coach but seeding 8 will be tough but worth it IMO

[aoberlin]

Ok the seeding committee has listened to the requests and we will use the next rankings to seed the IHSWCA Team State Duals.  We are still discussing the other options mentioned here and with using the next ranknings that should incorporate more of this seasons data into the seeds whether or not we seed 4 or 8. 

 

Thanks

 

I now officially believe tskin stands for thick skin.  I am impressed with your ability to handle comments in a constructive manner.  I am glad you are in the position you are in.

[BeastMode#31]

I now officially believe tskin stands for thick skin.  I am impressed with your ability to handle comments in a constructive manner.  I am glad you are in the position you are in.

 

+1

 

[tskin]

As long as we as a Indiana coaches community conitue to work together in a positive way I think we can really do some great things.  Feel free to email me at any time with ideas or sudgestions on what you feel can improve our sport.  The IHSWCA might not always be able to everything 100% to everyones liking but we will try. 

 

 

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

I certainly don't speak for Coach McGinley, but I don't think Cathedral cares where they are placed. We are jacked around by the IHSAA for every other sport (see: success tax for IHSAA football). If you put us at #1,#5, or #8, we'll be there ready to roll. As a school philosophy, we have long ago shed our ***NO NO NO***ion for a perfect system or a system that doesn't try to handicap us in some way. I don't think that IHSWCA can create a seeding for this dual meet tournament this early that doesn't impede football success. For instance, we beat Warren Central by a mile 1.5 weeks ago, but I can assure you none of you want to meet them in the IHSWCA dual in two weeks. Same story.

 

Further, for those of you with short memory, the IHSAA dual tournament was a blind draw. Allegedly. So, any ability to have minimal seeding is a positive in my mind whether it is off a little bit or not.

 

And, while we are at it, Cathedral is after the IHSAA trophy. The IHSWCA Dual Meet Tournament is a well-run event. However, until is it sanctioned by the IHSAA, it is not important to the Irish. This might sound immodest, but the competition within the school for IHSAA titles is so great, a mythical dual meet title wouldn't even make the school announcements. Sorry to be blunt, but these are facts.

 

[M109R]

I certainly don't speak for Coach McGinley, but I don't think Cathedral cares where they are placed. We are jacked around by the IHSAA for every other sport (see: success tax for IHSAA football). If you put us at #1,#5, or #8, we'll be there ready to roll. As a school philosophy, we have long ago shed our ***NO NO NO***ion for a perfect system or a system that doesn't try to handicap us in some way. I don't think that IHSWCA can create a seeding for this dual meet tournament this early that doesn't impede football success. For instance, we beat Warren Central by a mile 1.5 weeks ago, but I can assure you none of you want to meet them in the IHSWCA dual in two weeks. Same story.

 

Further, for those of you with short memory, the IHSAA dual tournament was a blind draw. Allegedly. So, any ability to have minimal seeding is a positive in my mind whether it is off a little bit or not.

 

And, while we are at it, Cathedral is after the IHSAA trophy. The IHSWCA Dual Meet Tournament is a well-run event. However, until is it sanctioned by the IHSAA, it is not important to the Irish. This might sound immodest, but the competition within the school for IHSAA titles is so great, a mythical dual meet title wouldn't even make the school announcements. Sorry to be blunt, but these are facts.

 

Cathedral already has been beaten by Franklin . If you lose to either Perry , Penn , MD or maybe all 3 . Would you be happy winning the IHSAA team title , even though you and everyone else know's that Cathedral isn't the best team ? I think winning a team title with 4 super studs is mythical and very Flawed .

[Fabio Jr.]

Anyone claiming that the Individual Tourney Team Title is a "True Team Championship" needs to really take a look at how things are determined. If you are not willing to make this event a big deal at your school whats the point of even doing it. I know last year their were parades and news articles for teams up north. This attitude is what cost us the Dual State Series in the first place. Like stated above if you are happy watching teams win with 3-5 good kids than you are truly hurting the sport. Winning the Individual Tournament is a big accomplishment but it does not in any way signify the Best Team.  </rant>

[AJ]

if you are happy watching teams win with 3-5 good kids than you are truly hurting the sport. Winning the Individual Tournament is a big accomplishment but it does not in any way signify the Best Team.  </rant>

 

Why is this 3-5 kid argument brought up?  The team series that was implemented over a decade ago has changed wrestling .  Wrestling now puts an emphasis on team, not 3 or 4 good kids.  Look at the top teams last year and the favorites this year.  They all have more than 3 or 5 good kids, but rather a very good to great team.  I dont see this changing for a very long time.  Off season trips and team year long wrestling will continue and so will the growth of teams.

 

I am a fan of the team state duals as I believe it is the best way to determine the best overall team in the state, but I do think though that the individual tournament has been forever changed. A team of 3 or 4 good kids may place in state, but it will be a very long time until a team with 3 or 4 good kids wins an individual state title.

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

Cathedral already has been beaten by Franklin . If you lose to either Perry , Penn , MD or maybe all 3 . Would you be happy winning the IHSAA team title , even though you and everyone else know's that Cathedral isn't the best team ? I think winning a team title with 4 super studs is mythical and very Flawed .

 

The only State Championship Trophy awarded by our athletic governing body for the State of Indiana is awarded at Bankers Life Fieldhouse. Build your programs around how the IHSAA quantifies success in our sport. If they decide to gratify our past wishes for a team dual IHSAA, we will adapt. Until then, we will build the program around 5 state place-winners and 2-3 champs. The other 7-8 wrestlers on our team are still very important to our overall success winning the title with our preparation. You can't minimize a non-Banker's Life participant's impact on a IHSAA title under the current format. 

 

Fabio - We were in the IHSAA Dual Finals about 90% of the time. We didn't take it lightly and we tried to win every year. If that was the format still, we would build the program that way with depth. The IHSAA doesn't care about duals. So, we need to focus on the trophy. I am all about building the sport across the state, but an IHSAA title is what we're after right now.

[aoberlin]

And, while we are at it, Cathedral is after the IHSAA trophy. The IHSWCA Dual Meet Tournament is a well-run event. However, until is it sanctioned by the IHSAA, it is not important to the Irish. This might sound immodest, but the competition within the school for IHSAA titles is so great, a mythical dual meet title wouldn't even make the school announcements. Sorry to be blunt, but these are facts.

 

He said mythical.  The best thing about wrestling is the fact that it truly is not about awards and recognition.  It is about the self satisfaction you get when your hard work pays off.  And if you can't see that facing the best "teams" in the state and coming out on top isn't something to be proud of I am not sure we are talking about the same sport.

 

If we wanted recognition for everything we would "play" a different sport.

[Thornton]

I certainly don't speak for Coach McGinley, but I don't think Cathedral cares where they are placed. We are jacked around by the IHSAA for every other sport (see: success tax for IHSAA football). If you put us at #1,#5, or #8, we'll be there ready to roll. As a school philosophy, we have long ago shed our ***NO NO NO***ion for a perfect system or a system that doesn't try to handicap us in some way. I don't think that IHSWCA can create a seeding for this dual meet tournament this early that doesn't impede football success. For instance, we beat Warren Central by a mile 1.5 weeks ago, but I can assure you none of you want to meet them in the IHSWCA dual in two weeks. Same story.

 

Further, for those of you with short memory, the IHSAA dual tournament was a blind draw. Allegedly. So, any ability to have minimal seeding is a positive in my mind whether it is off a little bit or not.

 

And, while we are at it, Cathedral is after the IHSAA trophy. The IHSWCA Dual Meet Tournament is a well-run event. However, until is it sanctioned by the IHSAA, it is not important to the Irish. This might sound immodest, but the competition within the school for IHSAA titles is so great, a mythical dual meet title wouldn't even make the school announcements. Sorry to be blunt, but these are facts.

 

If it is not important to the Irish, then why accept the invitation? Crown Point and Merrillville both declined for their own reasons, so why didn't Cathedral? Could it be because it is important?

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

If it is not important to the Irish, then why accept the invitation? Crown Point and Merrillville both declined for their own reasons, so why didn't Cathedral? Could it be because it is important?

 

I knew I could get Thornton out! Yes.

 

Again, I don't speak for coach McGinley or the AD, but I am trying to give you insight into our campus culture. Why wouldn't we want the best competition in the State. We already go to the Traicoff, Connersville 32 Team, etc. We seek out the best competition we can find during the regular season always, in every sport.

 

We already have Perry on the schedule, Thornton. If you win the IHSWCA Dual and we beat you in January, should we then consider ourselves the best team in the state? If we win the IHSWCA dual meet and you beat us 4 weeks later, are you the best? Having this tournament 4 weeks into Cathedral's official season and 4 weeks before the season is over is hardly representative of our squads at year-end. We'll keep February 21st circled on our calendar for what is important to us.

[WrestleMan]

My question is how do you "build" a high school program differently?  Aren't you trying to make every kid in the room as good as he can possibly be?  You act like Cathedral only focuses on 4-5 kids and making them better, while the other kids in the room only serve as practice partners to make those kids better. 

 

I can't understand that way of thinking and that's why I hate that we don't have the Team Dual Series anymore.  What we have now is no way to crown a "Team Champion".  The IHSWCA Team State duals is a fantastic event and any team that wins it will be the best representation of "Team" we have in the state of Indiana. 

 

You can't tell me that Cathedral is going to show up and not care whether the win or lose.  They will show up, compete hard and do everything they can do to win.  If they do anything different than that they shouldn't show up.

[Smooth34]

The only State Championship Trophy awarded by our athletic governing body for the State of Indiana is awarded at Bankers Life Fieldhouse.

 

Bingo.  As of right now, the IHSWCA Duals Champ can't call themselves state champions anymore than the team that wins the Bellmont Main Event in a couple of weeks (even though it may be the same team). 

 

The only IHSAA State Championship team will be awarded through the IHSAA Individual tournament, no matter how flawed the system is.  We all know it's not perfect, but you have to deal with the facts. 

 

NCAA awards their National Championship through an individual tournament.  I know it's not apples to apples in the way you can qualify, but it's still not a team dual format.

[Smooth34]

Why is this 3-5 kid argument brought up?  The team series that was implemented over a decade ago has changed wrestling .  Wrestling now puts an emphasis on team, not 3 or 4 good kids.  Look at the top teams last year and the favorites this year.  They all have more than 3 or 5 good kids, but rather a very good to great team.  I dont see this changing for a very long time.  Off season trips and team year long wrestling will continue and so will the growth of teams.

 

I am a fan of the team state duals as I believe it is the best way to determine the best overall team in the state, but I do think though that the individual tournament has been forever changed. A team of 3 or 4 good kids may place in state, but it will be a very long time until a team with 3 or 4 good kids wins an individual state title.

 

How high did Indian Creek finish a few years ago with Raley, Reese, and Stevenson?  That might be a good example for this argument. 

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

 

You can't tell me that Cathedral is going to show up and not care whether the win or lose.  They will show up, compete hard and do everything they can do to win.  If they do anything different than that they shouldn't show up.

 

100%. Winning is always the goal at this level.

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

How high did Indian Creek finish a few years ago with Raley, Reese, and Stevenson?  That might be a good example for this argument.

 

How about 1991 Lawrence North. 4 qualifiers, 4 Champs. Deckard, Ingalls, Smith, Robinson. Destroyed the field. Lost 5+ duals that season if I remember correctly.

[aoberlin]

How about 1991 Lawrence North. 4 qualifiers, 4 Champs. Deckard, Ingalls, Smith, Robinson. Destroyed the field. Lost 5+ duals that season if I remember correctly.

 

Does that mean that private schools goal will focus on getting the best 5 or 6 wrestlers they can and not worry about all 14?  Would save a ton on tuition scholarships and let the public schools keep some good wrestlers.  Sounds like a win for everyone.