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Ed Pendoski

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Ed Pendoski said:

My old Polish brain is still confused.  

We both admit Sliga stayed in his home school (this one is measurable, his transcripts prove us right). 

We both agree that the guys in his room benefit from him not transferring to a power program (this on is not quite as measurable, but I'm assuming you don't think it hurt Riley by having Sliga say "come wrestle and you can come to an academy with me if you want). 

I'm assuming we both agree he had a successful high school career. 

We both agree that he supplemented his training while staying in his home school.  Is that correct?

But we also agree that most (if not all) of the guys on the thread about big transfers supplement their training somewhere else besides they home school, correct?

Here's my opinion about the schools you mentioned (definitely not measurable).  Because Bratcher and Duckworth and Cody Phillips did not leave and go to a power program they helped their small schools do this:

  • 3rd Place Match - Ben Stewart (Cathedral) 41-2 won by decision over Luke Elliott (Eastbrook) 40-4 (Dec 7-4)

and 

  • 3rd Place Match - Jack Eiteljorge (Carmel) 40-3 won by fall over Tucker Coffman (Union County) 43-8 (Fall 1:51)

I'm confused on what you're saying because I read you say that Sliga had success and he included others with his success (in his home school).  You said that he is a bad example because he supplemented his training elsewhere.  But you also said that most (if not all) of the guys on the big transfers thread already supplements their training elsewhere?  They why do they need to transfer at all when they would help the sport as a whole by increasing the popularity of wrestling in a small/weaker program and they can still be successful because they can supplement their training.

My real question that comes from the start of this thread is that does having the strongest kids from small/weak programs transferring to power programs have a long term effect on our sport as a whole.

Its like I am speaking to my nephew - I can explain my theory 30 different ways, but his first response is the same question I just finished answering. I want you to prove to me that Sliga, Bratcher, Phillips, and Duckworth created a "strong" feeder program - 1 state placer since 2009-2013 places you in the bracket of "strong feeder programs"? If you were not Sliga's shadow/sensei/coach like you were, then yes, I do believe he would have found another school to attend or supplemented his training elsewhere. I do not believe Sliga staying in his home school created a wrestling craze or strong feeder program, or else we would be seeing Fishers HS Wrestling still reaping the benefits of all mighty Mitch.

You are jumping from subject to subject to start confusion, which may be why your Polish brain cannot keep up, however, name those kids that Sliga impacted that did not come with him to your academy? Where is the lasting impact that they made on their feeder programs? We should be seeing Fisher Tiger after Fisher Tiger at BLF if we are following your logic. Also, Fishers is a 6A school, so what do you consider a smaller/weaker program?

Mitch had success because of you. Cody has success because of you. Michael had success because of you. Same with Jackson. They spent, on average, over $2000 for 6-8 months of training - not including the private hourly workouts you were doing with them. I stand as witness. Yeah, go ahead and supplement your training.. IF you have the money. We have some parents that struggle to afford minimal club dues - I am sure that we are not the only ones, either. That is my point, probably 5% of HS wrestling parents can afford to send their kids to an academy year round. So, once again, training outside of your HS program is not as readily available as you make it sound. Hence why parents/kids take advantage of/utilize open enrollment - pay a percentage of the price Uncle Eddie charged us for one month at CIA to train in an elite club environment without the private club costs year round.

To answer you final question - the sport at the high school age continues to grow year by year. Numbers do not lie. So, no. It will not effect our sport as the number continue to grow. I am guessing that you have evidence of schools dropping their program or contemplating dropping their program due to their "studs" transferring to better programs?

Edited by Riley McClurg

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12 minutes ago, Riley McClurg said:

Its like I am speaking to my nephew - I want you to prove to me that Sliga, Bratcher, Phillips, and Duckworth created a "strong" feeder program - 1 state placer since 2009-2013 places you in the bracket of "strong feeder programs"? If you were not Sliga's shadow/sensei/coach like you were, then yes, I do believe he would have found another school to attend or supplemented his training elsewhere. I do not believe Sliga staying in his home school created a wrestling craze or strong feeder program, or else we would be seeing Fishers HS Wrestling still reaping the benefits of all mighty Mitch.

You are jumping from subject to subject to start confusion, which may be why your Polish brain cannot keep up, however, name those kids that Sliga impacted that did not come with him to your academy? Where is the lasting impact that they made on their feeder programs? We should be seeing Fisher Tiger after Fisher Tiger at BLF if we are following your logic. Also, Fishers is a 6A school, so what do you consider a smaller/weaker program?

Mitch had success because of you. Cody has success because of you. Michael had success because of you. Same with Jackson. They spent, on average, over $2000 for 6-8 months of training - not including the private hourly workouts you were doing with them. I stand as witness. Yeah, go ahead and supplement your training.. IF you have the money. We have some parents that struggle to afford minimal club dues. That is my point, probably 5% of HS wrestling parents can afford to send their kids to an academy year round. So, once again, training outside of your HS program is not as readily available as you make it sound. 

To answer you final question - the sport at the high school age continues to grow year by year. Numbers do not lie. So, no. It will not effect our sport as the number continue to grow. I am guessing that you have evidence of schools dropping their program or contemplating dropping their program due to their "studs" transferring to better programs?

I'm only chiming in because you're talking about the school where I coached...

Fishers High School is difficult to compare because of it's relatively short history.  It began as a high school in 2006.  Our first 2 years were rough without seniors and only a couple of experienced wrestlers.  Building a program is also difficult without any alumni, especially ones who are parents helping with the youth program.  But we did have success before, during, and after Mitch:

  • 2007 - x
  • 2008 - x
  • 2009 - Brad Farrell 5th, Patrick Lux SQ
  • 2010 - Mitch 3rd
  • 2011 - Mitch 3rd
  • 2012 - Mitch 1st, Jordan Lile SQ
  • 2013 - Mitch 1st, Seth Riley 4th, Jordan Lile SQ
  • 2014 - Jordan Lile 8th (with torn ACL), Lance Syverson SQ
  • 2015 - Alexander Strueder SQ, Mason Gaines SQ
  • 2016 - x (new head coach)
  • 2017 - x
  • 2018 - Alexander Strueder SQ (new head coach)
  • 2019 - TBD (another new head coach)

So probably the bigger factor in the lack of sustained success following Mich was the coaching turnover (4 different head coaches in the last 5 years).  I guess that's my fault.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

I'm only chiming in because you're talking about the school where I coached...

Fishers High School is difficult to compare because of it's relatively short history.  It began as a high school in 2006.  Our first 2 years were rough without seniors and only a couple of experienced wrestlers.  Building a program is also difficult without any alumni, especially ones who are parents helping with the youth program.  But we did have success before, during, and after Mitch:

  • 2007 - x
  • 2008 - x
  • 2009 - Brad Farrell 5th, Patrick Lux SQ
  • 2010 - Mitch 3rd
  • 2011 - Mitch 3rd
  • 2012 - Mitch 1st, Jordan Lile SQ
  • 2013 - Mitch 1st, Seth Riley 4th, Jordan Lile SQ
  • 2014 - Jordan Lile 8th (with torn ACL), Lance Syverson SQ
  • 2015 - Alexander Strueder SQ, Mason Gaines SQ
  • 2016 - x (new head coach)
  • 2017 - x
  • 2018 - Alexander Strueder SQ (new head coach)
  • 2019 - TBD (another new head coach)

So probably the bigger factor in the lack of sustained success following Mich was the coaching turnover (4 different head coaches in the last 5 years).  I guess that's my fault.

Never once have I meant to discredit you as a coach - I hope you know how much I respect you as a coach. With that being said, the kids listed from 2010 to 2018 (minus Gaines and Syverson) supplemented their training with Ed at CIA. Personally, I believe that Mitch was the catalyst that brought them to Ed, which in return significantly helped strengthen your program for that time period. Do you agree?

My point is that not everyone in their program has a catalyst like Mitch Sliga - the dude is a rare breed as a wrestler and leader. Therefore, not every kid has the opportunity to follow a Mitch Sliga's footsteps or travel and pay to supplement their training. As for you saying it is your fault, I do not agree. Sustainability takes much more than one man's effort.

Once again, please do not throw me on my head.

Edited by Riley McClurg

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Posted (edited)

Why did LeCount, Cottey, Masengale, and myself included stop attending CIA once at PMHS (granted I returned once Brady & my brother took over)? We had everything that we needed (from a training standpoint) where we were at. Our coaches provided us with the tools and everything else that we needed to be successful on a year-round basis. We did not have to seek better partners or coaches or instruction, let alone pay an asinine amount for it. 

I personally believe that is why families, parents, and kids take advantage of the open enrollment rule. No one wants to HAVE to pay over $2K+/year to attend a private academy.

As much fun as I have enjoyed the educational banter, especially with ole Eddie P, I must sign off now. 

Let the parents make the choices for their kids - it is none of our business as coaches. Our job is to control what we can control, and to put them in the best position to be even more successful after HS wrestling.

Edited by Riley McClurg

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Posted (edited)

The Cornerstone of Ed's argument is the Sliga workout partner legacy which resulted in Riley's state success.  Of course Ill also recognize GrecoCoach's expert coaching as a factor the success of both wrestlers.    But that brings the key question up concerning to transfer or not.  What do you do when you're a talented  wrestler with goals, and your school doesn't have a workout partner like Sliga and you don't have a legendary coach like Greco Coach or Ed Pendoski?  Do you stay put, and hope you can find a way.   For every success story like Seth Riley, there's hundreds of Johnny Potentials  that had the desire and talent, but were in the wrong situation and never reached their full potential and ended as the  SS ticket round victim.

How about the kids that did move and reached there potential as a result.   My example is Tanner Lynde.   He transferred to Delphi because he got himself a badass workout partner in Braden Atwood and also benefited from some valuable coaching from Braden's dad.      How about  the 2012 182 lb state finals: Tanner Lynde (Delphi) 8 - Luke Shaeffer Westfield 1.   

You cant argue Lynde benefited the same way from a workout partner the same way Riley did.  Maybe  Lynde would of done as well if he didn't transfer, but I say he was smart to put him in good situation.   It didn't hurt him getting a Purdue scholarship either.

If you have big goals, I say evaluate your situation to see if it will get you there.  If not, then maybe make a change that improves your chances.

 

Joe,  how come you cant use the word A M B  I T I O U S, on your site?   If you type it you get this result, ***NO NO NO***ious.

 

 

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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There is an interesting situation occurring up north here in Hamilton. It's a small town without a stop light and basically lake town. The town is already small, but they are just close enough to a couple bigger schools that have numerous more opportunities whether it be academically to athletics to anything else compared to what they have at home. The open enrollment system has basically dropped their enrollment in half to where they have less than 300 kids from K-12. The school is basically on life support right now as they are losing funding and keeping it open is difficult financially. 

This wasn't something that happened over night, but it started when parents saw better opportunities for their kids at neighboring schools. It snow balled into more and more that did this until we are at this point where the school has less than 20 kids in their senior class. 

I'm sure the parents at least semi-care about Hamilton schools, but it's hard to not see that their kids could have a better high school experience elsewhere. 

On the wrestling side this is very much what could happen. The issue we will see is the trickle down affect of even regional or semi-state level kids that want to get better that start moving maybe not to a top 10 program, but top 20-30 programs that could use that level of kid to propel them into higher ranks. As Maligned said, we are a very mobile society these days and this issue is just the beginning which could lead to some affects we do not want to happen to the sport.

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3 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

The Cornerstone of Ed's argument is the Sliga workout partner legacy which resulted in Riley's state success. 

This is exactly what I'm saying.  

 

3 hours ago, Riley McClurg said:

I believe that Mitch was the catalyst that brought them to Ed, which in return significantly helped strengthen your program for that time period. Do you agree?

And so did Riley.

 

But if we look at the top 10 teams in the state tourney last year.  Then look at the number of transfers to those programs.  

If those guys all stayed in their home school district.  Can we agree that there's a better chance of them recruiting a 'Seth Riley' to continue/join our sport? 

 

 

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On 8/23/2018 at 11:53 AM, Ed Pendoski said:

I wish I knew the moderator well enough to control this conversation thread!  hehe

The theory i'm trying to bring up is the long term ramifications of quality transfers going to power programs and the result it will have on the smaller/weaker schools over time.  

We hope that the room at CIA helped Sliga improve his game in the time he was there, and you are absolutely correct that Sliga introduced Seth Riley to our room also.  Again, we hope we helped supplement his training too!  

But doesn't this help make the statement of spreading out the growth of our sport in many schools is better?  If Sliga would have wrestled for a different school than Fishers, do you really believe that Seth Riley qualifies for state?  Wouldn't this be a quality thing for wrestling as a whole?

If we look at the list of transfers on the other thread.  How many of the names listed attend an academy similar to Sliga?  

I'm the Lorax.  I speak for the trees.

If families "do whats best for their kids" and transfer from smaller/weaker programs, is that going to be the demise of smaller/weaker schools to drop their programs.  What has happened to our failing public schools since they started open enrollment?  Can we use that number and an example of what could happen to wrestling programs in our state?

 

I really like this anaolgy.  If i could invent a machine that could instantly fix broken arms with no pain whatsoever.  The only downfall is that this machine cost $700 trillion dollars to make.  If somone's kid broke their arm, I would say, "I bet that hurts like hell" because there's not chance I would be in favor of ruining  America's economy to make a machine that would make a kids broken arm go away.....but if my daughter broke her arm you can bet your ass I think its a good investment!

 

 

This is smart stuff. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, GrecoCoach said:

I'm only chiming in because you're talking about the school where I coached...

Fishers High School is difficult to compare because of it's relatively short history.  It began as a high school in 2006.  Our first 2 years were rough without seniors and only a couple of experienced wrestlers.  Building a program is also difficult without any alumni, especially ones who are parents helping with the youth program.  But we did have success before, during, and after Mitch:

  • 2007 - x
  • 2008 - x
  • 2009 - Brad Farrell 5th, Patrick Lux SQ
  • 2010 - Mitch 3rd
  • 2011 - Mitch 3rd
  • 2012 - Mitch 1st, Jordan Lile SQ
  • 2013 - Mitch 1st, Seth Riley 4th, Jordan Lile SQ
  • 2014 - Jordan Lile 8th (with torn ACL), Lance Syverson SQ
  • 2015 - Alexander Strueder SQ, Mason Gaines SQ
  • 2016 - x (new head coach)
  • 2017 - x
  • 2018 - Alexander Strueder SQ (new head coach)
  • 2019 - TBD (another new head coach)

So probably the bigger factor in the lack of sustained success following Mich was the coaching turnover (4 different head coaches in the last 5 years).  I guess that's my fault.

...I'm not happy I've added to the instability because Fishers is a great place to be with great people, but I wanted to be in the Region closer to more of my family, friends, and wife.

I'm not sad about it though, as I have a great school that gives me a better opportunity to coach, teach, and live the best I can. 

 

 

To get back to Ed's original ideas...

Transferring wrestlers limit the sport's broad appeal by concentrating it to a single place. With increased transferring, we see situations that change the concentration of state placers. Instead of the typical 7 placers coming from about five schools, we get 7 placers coming from 3 schools. 

I enjoy the big picture argument that Ed is making. I feel  that most of the comments on this post are "off topic"...but I also understand that they are off topicbecause almost all of us live our lives and participate in this sport attempting to achieve specific goals for specific people--most often ourselves and our children. The big picture is never the most pressing issue to any of our lives. Because of this, Ed's thoughts should be considered more thoughtfully by all of us. He is asking us to think about the sport of wrestling as if the sport was a person.

What would you do if the entire sport of wrestling was a kid you were supposed to coach?

Would you want the entire sport to concentrate its talents in a few places, or would you want the entire sport to try to develop its talents in all positions? 

 

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There's a small bit of irony in that Carmel sports tend to attract athletes that live outside of Carmel school district...

The economic factors associated high school sports should be the ones being addressed as primary root causes vs. discussion on more legislative interventions to limit choice. If small communities (small schools) were financially solid and were able to compensate teachers/coaches commensurately, build impressive facilities and attract talent, this conversation wouldn't be relevant...

Having graduated from Southwood HS (Wabash County) in 1991 and building a home in <Pound Sign>HendricksCountySmellsFunny in 1998, I can honestly say that I have seen both sides. I've had relatives who have worked in the smaller, rural consolidated schools and ones that have worked in Class 6A football school systems - there's no comparison to the resources available to the larger schools... Smaller schools are continuing to wither on the vine due to population migration to jobs, opportunities, etc.  Additionally, the larger population density areas are going to continue to be able to support academies that bring in the hammers from across multiple school districts. Why wouldn't a parent want to have those opportunities for their kids close at hand?

Having a state tournament by class system may still interest those athletes in the middle, but the best still want to compete against the best and that is what a single class tournament provides. Which solution is "best?"

 

BTW, I commend guys like Jake O'Neill on the work he's doing with the Wabash Apaches (in area of the state that has been relatively devoid of wrestling). Hopefully his club kids and school kids will bring some excitement to the FW semi-state again...

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Posted (edited)

I have enjoyed reading this thread….  much to consider.  I have one more wrinkle to add to the discussion:  the impending/inevitable wrestling coach shortage.  How many of us who have spent the last 20 to 30 years in education would make the same career choice today?  I LOVE teaching high school and do not regret for a moment my career path.  That being said, if I were 19 or 20 now I would have to look elsewhere;  I just do not see how most young men (and women) would consider teaching and coaching a viable option anymore.  Enrollment in university education programs supports this.  Finding teachers, let alone keeping them in classrooms for longer than a year or three, is tougher and tougher each year.  Now add to that the ability and drive to run a solid wrestling program year in and year out.  Visit your favorite school's wrestling website and count the number of education majors on the roster.  I just do not see how having more than just a few solid wrestling programs throughout the state will be sustainable and what will look like transferring and recruiting will simply be families seeking competent coaching and an actual program to join.  This, far more than academies, open enrollment, and recruiting, could be the downfall of wrestling and many other high school sports.  

Edited by matts

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Posted (edited)

Matt's hits some very key points, those schools that can keep coaches around are going to lead the pack in keeping and drawing in quality kids. 

The amount a school invests in their program is a huge factor, look at Brownsburg 10 years ago vs now and you can see what a difference making wrestling a priority makes.

Wrestling is still a non revenue sport to most ADs and it's clear in the decisions they make about wrestling. Until a school decides to make an investment in the sport, they are going to lose quality kids.

A lot also falls on the coaches, building off the above point, kids dont leave coaches when they know they are getting their best day in and day out. Ask kids at the programs getting kids, they will all say that Coach X truely cares about them and their success. 

In all of this wrestling is cannibalizing itself, the gymnastic example is a great one, but in many cases we only have ADs and coaches to blame in the process. 

Edited by CoachM

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Posted (edited)

Been reading this thread a while now as its a topic I find very interesting, last night I was reading, a book, with pages, and words and stuff and it made me think.

I really don't think that my response here will help either side of the arguement, however shed some light coming from a different angle

Its hard for coaches when kids transfer away, no doubt, you put time into that kid and love them.  You take it personal.  I do too.  But just as some kids are born with more talent, and resources.  Some schools and coaches have more kids and resources.  Some great coaches are at schools with less resources and never get to shine, some not so great coaches are at schools with major resources and shine.  (and it works the other way too).  But in the end we take it personal.

------------------------
anyway,  lately been reading like crazy, and this was something I thought really helped me with transfers and such, as I think it describes me, and some of you, AND MANY KIDS, so bear with me
 
Its from DAVID AND GOLIATH from John C. Maxwell - i copy and pasted a chapter summary off the internet.
 
 Caroline Sachs, an above-average high schooler, was trying to decide which college to attend, University of Maryland or Brown University. The challenge of picking which school she should go to was most difficult. The majority of students wouldn’t even think twice about it because attending the school with a better reputation would look better on a job application, right? No. The problem with the students who chose the better school is that they do not realize is they will be among other students who were valedictorians and 4.0 scholars, immediately making her a little fish in this big sea. By choosing this, Caroline becomes an average student, which was a completely new concept for her. In the end, the decision she made ended up causing her to drop her intended major because it was too difficult and pick up a new one. This major was less appealing to her, and was not her passion. Now don’t you wonder what would have happened if she would have chose to be a big fish in a little pond? So does she.  
 
-- 
it might not sound the way i wanted it to, but the point of the chapter was that it is best for some kids to have the opportunity to be varsity for YOU at at your school.  I would have never coached football if i had not went to my hometowns school.......Yeah, my senior year I started on an 0-10 team - but i started and played.  I never would have made varsity at another football school.  What transponded from that is me coaching football to this day.  It gave me a chance.  Wrestling, same thing.... I was the only kid on the team that didnt make the finals my senior year at sectional - I got third.  Think if I would have went to one of the schools that I lost to, I wouldn't have made varsity.  I most likely wouldnt be coaching today.
 
Now, I don't know what to say about the kids that leave a program, many of us have had that happen. .  They are gone, and we all have trouble forgetting that.  But what helps me is knowing what going to my high school made me, and what it makes me do today.  When kids leave, that leaves an amazing opportunity for someone else to grow as it did me.  It made me a bigger fish in a smaller pond (starter at jennings county) rather than a small fish in a big pond......example: if I would have tried to wrestle for mater dei, i may have got discouraged never making varsity, and not coach today.
 
I've had kids lave, that the weight class was open to a kid that was academic all state when he got it.  Great opportunity for that kid to become the big fish.
 
It helps me anyway to find peace with it, and know I'm doing good, and that kids get good out of being the "big fish in a small pond" here.  I was.  And other kids will get to be.
 
I do believe in loyalty, and staying with a school (been at Jeff 17 years now despite chances to leave); but once a kid leaves, do the best you can with what you got and create an awesome opportunity for the next kid to be "the big fish".  Don't get so mad the kid left that you neglect the next kid or we WILL FALL LIKE GYMNASTICS.  Keep your numbers up despite the transfers, its your job to.
 
what a rant.  I really just wanted people to know I can read.
Edited by dstruck

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On August 23, 2018 at 10:33 AM, maligned said:

In my opinion, it's the effects of technology and economic progress. With the advent of the internet and then social media, ideas/schedules/plans are shared more quickly and easily. And the average American family, with our nation's steady economic progress, has significantly more flexibility in their spending that allows for more camps and travel--and therefore a building of wrestling networks and an exposure to what's out there. Once you've got all the info of what's happening in wrestling, you've built your wrestling community network from a distance, and you've got that slightly more income and awareness of jobs available elsewhere--the leap to a family move is relatively quick and painless compared to 30 or 40 years ago. Then when a couple families do it, it's that much easier for others to follow suit.

We're getting more mobile on every level as a society--not less. It's happening on a national level in terms of populations in cities, for example. People are trickling away from all the big Midwest cities and landing in coastal or warm-weather or tech-oriented cities. I'm not sure what the smart answers are to the issues Coach P. raises. If we as a society are clearly migrating toward what's perceived to be bigger/better/smarter/hipper, it will be tough to slow the trend in high school wrestling. How do you build those arguments to families that "better" can actually mean bettering your community, being loyal, and growing as human beings in accomplishing what others say we can't?

I agree with this, our coach at Heritage Hills resigned at the end of the school year last year and within two weeks had packed up his family and moved back to NC.  His son is already training at  M2 Training Center, David Taylor's place in Pennsylvania, yes dad travels twice a month to PA or more according to FB post, crazy things we as parents do for our kids, lol. Son is training I believe with Marine Corps team because his dad coached there years ago, also felt IHSAA in season training restrictions may hinder some of his development.  This is a family that relocated strictly for wrestling and doing what they thought was best.  Who are we to question parents doing what they think is best.

Edited by 3552

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