IHSAA Wrestling Grievances – The 12 Days of IHSAA Christmas

[Y2CJ41]

5 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Hopefully none of our sports bases their decisions on post season tournaments on fan experience.

I don't think wrestle-backs is fan friendly adding hours to the event watching losers wrestle.

[takemtothemat]

6 hours ago, Galagore said:

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by takemtothemat

[ghughes1974]

On the third day of Christmas, IHSAA gave to me, poor philosophy: “crowning a champion” is their only responsibility

 

The IHSAA will make statements that their responsibility is to “crown a champion” or “identify the top 8 wrestlers in each weight class.”  These statements are generally made when you’re questioning the fairness of an IHSAA practice.  I believe statements like this represent poor philosophy. 

 

Is the champion or top 8 the only ones who matter?  What about the responsibility to create a fair, positive environment for competition that allows our athletes to learn and grow as young men and women?  What about the responsibility of fostering sportsmanship? 

 

Often times the word “fairness” comes up in conversations about sectional alignments.  The IHSAA openly states that it makes no attempt to separate programs based on competition level in a sport.  Is it good for the sport for top teams or athletes to eliminate each other early? 

 

Perfect fairness is impossible. However, does this mean the IHSAA should make zero attempt at improving fairness?  Should they turn a blind eye to scenarios that are completely unfair?  I believe this happens today in wrestling.

 

I think of fairness as a scale.  On one side is perfect fairness and the other side is complete unfairness. 

 

Perfect Fairness________________Middle__________________Complete Unfairness

 

Realignment activities could easily make improvements to create a higher level of fairness, somewhere between the “middle” and “perfect fairness”.  The IHSAA simply needs to try.

 

The IHSAA preaches sportsmanship to our athletes.  Ironic that abandoning fairness contradicts sportsmanship by definition.

 

Sportsmanship definition:

fair and generous behavior or treatment of others, especially in a sports contest.  

OR  

conduct such as fairness, respect for one’s opponent, and graciousness in winning and losing. 

 

So if the IHSAA doesn’t advocate for fairness, does that mean they’re not advocating for sportsmanship?  Does the wrestling community believe in the pursuit of fairness, or do we think that crowning a champion is all that matters?

 

If you agree fairness for all wrestlers should be a priority, click like. 

[ghughes1974]

On the fourth day of Christmas, IHSAA gave to me, unfair regionals

 

In wrestling, Indiana has a high level of imbalance at several regionals.   How do you identify unfairness/imbalance?  Here’s three ways:

1.       Percentage of advancers.  Each semi-state is fed by four regionals.  If your regionals are balanced, each regional would produce roughly 25% of advancers to state.  However, if a single regional starts to consistently produce more than 40% of advancers, that’s a sign of significant imbalance/unfairness.

2.       4 seeds beating 1 seeds.  If you have a regional who’s 1 seeds are consistently beaten by 4 seeds, it’s a sign of significant imbalance.  If a 4 seed beats a 1 seed, that could mean there’s a 5^th place guy who was eliminated who may have been able to beat ALL advancing wrestlers from a different regional.

3.       Concentration of large schools.  Large schools more consistently produce elite wrestlers.  If a significant number of large schools are grouped together in early rounds, it is likely to produce imbalance. 

 

CASE STUDY (using 2021 tournament results data) 

 

New Castle Semi State Regionals (2021)

 

Regionals in New Castle	Advancing Wrestlers to state	%
Frankfort	12	21%
Pendleton Heights	11	20%
Perry	24	43%
Richmond	9	16%

 

43% of advancers supports that Perry is loaded.  Richmond produced only 16% of advancers and 21.4% of 1 seeds from Richmond (3 of 14) were defeated by a 4 seed from another Regional in 2021.

 

When it comes time for realignment, wouldn’t it make sense to attempt to shuffle some highly competitive teams out of Perry and into Richmond and vice versa?  IHSAA did the opposite.  Instead they shifted four highly competitive teams from Pendleton Heights to Perry to load the Perry regional further. 

 

Evansville Semi State Regionals (2021)

 

Regionals in Evansville	Advancing Wrestlers to State	%
Bloomington South	13	23%
Evansville North	12	21%
Jeffersonville	7	13%
Mooresville	24	43%

 

43% of advancers supports that Mooresville is loaded.  Jeffersonville produced only 13% of advancers and 14.2% of 1 seeds from Jeffersonville (2 of 14) were defeated by a 4 seed from another Regional in 2021.

 

When it comes time for realignment, wouldn’t it make sense to attempt to shuffle some highly competitive teams out of Mooresville and into Jeffersonville and vice versa?  In this example, the IHSAA made a positive move.  They moved Franklin Community to the Jeffersonville regional.  This is a great move, but I would argue more teams should have been reshuffled.    

 

When you have among the lowest success rates in the country and you don’t allow wrestlebacks, it makes fair sectionals, regionals and semi-state even more important.

 

Members of the Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association have been asking to better balance regionals.  Several proposals on this topic have been submitted.  Ideas for better balance are consistently denied by IHSAA assistant commissioner Robert Faulkens.  Is that what the wrestling community wants?

 

If you think a reasonable level of effort should be applied to balance sectionals, regionals and semi states when its time for realignment, click like.

Edited December 12, 2023 by ghughes1974

[bomber_bob]

3 hours ago, ghughes1974 said:

Several proposals on this topic have been submitted.  Ideas for better balance are consistently denied by IHSAA assistant commissioner Robert Faulkens. 

 

This has been brought up multiple times. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all proposals come from the IHSWCA and go to the IHSAA Board of Directors, which is comprised of 17 different individuals. Am I missing something?

[Galagore]

Does the IHSAA attempt to achieve competitive balance in any other sports? Would it be wise to try to join forces with other coaches associations and give a more multi-sport argument to the way our state tournaments are generally constructed? Personally, competitive balance is ranked below classing the tournament and having wrestle backs on the priority list. That is because those are specific to our/individual sport(s), where competitive balance calls into question the entire IHSAA post-season philosophy across the board.

[Brandon Sandefur]

The state tournament doesn't need equity it needs the best wrestlers.  The Mooresville and Perry regionals are tough, always have been and if they're that good they should have no problem steamrolling through the competition at their respective Semi States.  We don't need to re-align the tournament every year because people don't get the desired results.  The Indy area is tough to get through but they also have the largest number of kids to choose from and the highest quantity of clubs in the state.  For those not originally from Indiana....we don't call it the ticket round and first round clown for nothing.  Enjoy the season and us Hoosiers made it simple 4 get through at every stage of our tournament series.

[Silence Dogood]

1 hour ago, Galagore said:

Does the IHSAA attempt to achieve competitive balance in any other sports? Would it be wise to try to join forces with other coaches associations and give a more multi-sport argument to the way our state tournaments are generally constructed? Personally, competitive balance is ranked below classing the tournament and having wrestle backs on the priority list. That is because those are specific to our/individual sport(s), where competitive balance calls into question the entire IHSAA post-season philosophy across the board.

They do in one way by bumping up successful teams to the next class in classed team sports. 

[Galagore]

58 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

They do in one way by bumping up successful teams to the next class in classed team sports. 

 

You have made an excellent point. Unfortunately, that is not applicable to our sport.

[Wrestling Scholar]

2 hours ago, Brandon Sandefur said:

The state tournament doesn't need equity it needs the best wrestlers.  The Mooresville and Perry regionals are tough, always have been and if they're that good they should have no problem steamrolling through the competition at their respective Semi States.  We don't need to re-align the tournament every year because people don't get the desired results.  The Indy area is tough to get through but they also have the largest number of kids to choose from and the highest quantity of clubs in the state.  For those not originally from Indiana....we don't call it the ticket round and first round clown for nothing.  Enjoy the season and us Hoosiers made it simple 4 get through at every stage of our tournament series.

So you agree, to get the best wrestlers through, we need wrestle backs?     Currently in Indiana, too many guys with lucky draws get through and not the best guys.  

[Brandon Sandefur]

No because we all go to semi state knowing those conditions and I don't believe in changing them just because people allege unfairness.  If the guy didn't get through he wasn't one of the best guys..... if you don't win your regional you have to beat a regional champ to make it through.  

It's not lucky when we have only 16 qualify to state with no wrestlebacks you had to beat someone pretty good. 

[aoberlin]

4 hours ago, Brandon Sandefur said:

No because we all go to semi state knowing those conditions and I don't believe in changing them just because people allege unfairness.  If the guy didn't get through he wasn't one of the best guys..... if you don't win your regional you have to beat a regional champ to make it through.  

It's not lucky when we have only 16 qualify to state with no wrestlebacks you had to beat someone pretty good. 

Meh… I have had quite a few state qualifiers that were not top 4 qualify. I have had many more wrestlers I have felt were top 4 not make it. This isn’t rocket science. Our setup is flat out flawed. End of story. 

[HWTDAD]

32 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

Meh… I have had quite a few state qualifiers that were not top 4 qualify. I have had many more wrestlers I have felt were top 4 not make it. This isn’t rocket science. Our setup is flat out flawed. End of story. 

You are correct. Seriously flawed. Are we not the only state in the country not to have wrestle backs?'

 

[rookie78]

It is unfair that Shohei Ohtani gets $700,000,000 over the next 10 years and I don't. I am going to see if I can get my contract renegotiated so that him and I are equal.

[Brandon Sandefur]

You can think your guy is top 4 all you want it doesn't mean he is and the tournament doesn't need to get adjusted because some feel their guy got a bad draw.  You  either punch your ticket or you don't...... you can say it's unfair all you want,  Indiana is terrible whatever...... bottom line he either makes it or he doesn't.

[Wrestling Scholar]

43 minutes ago, rookie78 said:

It is unfair that Shohei Ohtani gets $700,000,000 over the next 10 years and I don't. I am going to see if I can get my contract renegotiated so that him and I are equal.

Im sorry, but thats a weak strawman "whataboutism argument.  Ohtani  is a valuable baseball player, and is getting paid his fair market value.  Thats as fair as anything gets.   You too are getting paid your fair market value.  Right???.  I think youre misiing the point.   The ultimate goal is not to nake a fair system, but to make a system thats best for wrestlers and wrestling fans.

[Wrestling Scholar]

32 minutes ago, Brandon Sandefur said:

You can think your guy is top 4 all you want it doesn't mean he is and the tournament doesn't need to get adjusted because some feel their guy got a bad draw.  You  either punch your ticket or you don't...... youan say it's unfair all you want,  Indiana is terrible whatever...... bottom line he either makes it or he doesn't.

Ok,  all this ticket punching yada, yada yada is great.  I just went to see the best wrestlers wrestle each other.

[Brandon Sandefur]

Feb 16-17, 2024, Ford Center, Evansville, you'll see the best and the fans always love it

[rookie78]

9 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Im sorry, but thats a weak strawman "whataboutism argument.  Ohtani  is a valuable baseball player, and is getting paid his fair market value.  Thats as fair as anything gets.   You too are getting paid your fair market value.  Right???.  I think youre misiing the point.   The ultimate goal is not to nake a fair system, but to make a system thats best for wrestlers and wrestling fans.

I don't think the system will ever get the best 16 wrestlers at each weight to the State Finals.  Someone, no matter the circumstances, will not make it.  Illness, injury, skin funk, bad draw, headlock, etc have and will continue to happen whether there are wrestle backs or not.

[Galagore]

9 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Im sorry, but thats a weak strawman "whataboutism argument.  Ohtani  is a valuable baseball player, and is getting paid his fair market value.  Thats as fair as anything gets.   You too are getting paid your fair market value.  Right???.  I think youre misiing the point.   The ultimate goal is not to nake a fair system, but to make a system thats best for wrestlers and wrestling fans.

 

You had me until the last three words. We should not design children's competitions for fan enjoyment.

[Wrestling Scholar]

2 hours ago, rookie78 said:

I don't think the system will ever get the best 16 wrestlers at each weight to the State Finals.  Someone, no matter the circumstances, will not make it.  Illness, injury, skin funk, bad draw, headlock, etc have and will continue to happen whether there are wrestle backs or not.

I think this is where you're not getting it:

Yes, Illness, communible skin disease,  not making weight, disqualification by ref, etc are  an inherent part of wrestling and  mostly cant be avoided

 

But eliminating good wrestlers because of chance of bad draw is very avoidable and a systematic flaw in the IHSAA tournament.  That's what wrestlebacks do, and why every other state and 99% of wrestling tournaments have them.    We did some research  a few years back and looked at multiple  state tournament 16 man brackets with wrestle backs  and found a median  17%  rate that the wrestler losing in 1st round came back and placed in the top 4.    I think its fair to say the IHSAA tournament is putting  approximately 17% of the wrong guys in the state tournament due to the system flaw of no wrestlebacks.

[ILUV2PIN]

While this whole discussion is extremely nuanced, I think these sort of additions/changes would generally help to grow our sport in the state (should be our ultimate goal). I don't know what it would look like, but I'm a big proponent of "do what the best do," and always look to the states with the best collegiate results.

Go figure, Indiana was the last state to allow Sunday alcohol sales, and now we're the only state that doesn't do true wrestle backs...

[Holden]

15 hours ago, rookie78 said:

It is unfair that Shohei Ohtani gets $700,000,000 over the next 10 years and I don't. I am going to see if I can get my contract renegotiated so that him and I are equal.

Apparently, Ohtani is deferring his salary and only taking 2 million a year so the Dodgers can keep spending.  I guess that means he gets the rest at the end of the ten years.  Maybe you could negotiate a contract like that, coach. 

[VisionQuest87]

3 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

I think this is where you're not getting it:

Yes, Illness, communible skin disease,  not making weight, disqualification by ref, etc are  an inherent part of wrestling and  mostly cant be avoided

 

But eliminating good wrestlers because of chance of bad draw is very avoidable and a systematic flaw in the IHSAA tournament.  That's what wrestlebacks do, and why every other state and 99% of wrestling tournaments have them.    We did some research  a few years back and looked at multiple  state tournament 16 man brackets with wrestle backs  and found a median  17%  rate that the wrestler losing in 1st round came back and placed in the top 4.    I think its fair to say the IHSAA tournament is putting  approximately 17% of the wrong guys in the state tournament due to the system flaw of no wrestlebacks.

I am so conflicted.  The wrestler, parent, coach part of me would love wrestle backs.   The fan in me loves the round to go.   No other round in the country compares to it.  You can quote every piece of research out there (and I commend you for all that you have already done) but nothing compares to "If you want to go to State don't lose in the round to go".  If you are the number 4 kid in the state and you lose in semi-state guess what you're not the best in the State.  I you lost in the first round and wrestle back to 4th maybe you just had a good day.  That does not mean you are one of the top 4 wrestlers.   No system will ever be perfect.  Yes maybe wrestle backs are better than what we have now.  But not buying that wrestle backs will get you the top 4 of every semi-state to state.  Not even sure that should be the goal.  If that really is the goal why not just have the top 16 ranked wrestlers go to state regardless of what semi-state you are from.   But that's why we wrestle on Saturdays.......

[ghughes1974]

On the fifth day of Christmas, IHSAA gave to me, uneven semi-states

 

Indiana wrestling has consistent imbalance at the semi-state level.  Use the same criteria in the last post and same year as a case study.    Percentage of advancers, 4 seeds beating 1 seeds, and concentration of large schools.

 

CASE STUDY (using 2021 tournament results data) 

 

Semi State	Advancing to Top 8	%
East Chicago	28	25%
Fort Wayne	20	18%
Jasper	33	29%
New Castle	31	28%

 

Percentage of advancers supports that East Chicago his highly balanced and there’s imbalance between Evansville/Jasper, New Castle and Fort Wayne.  Also, in 2021, 21.4% of 1 seeds from Fort Wayne (3 of 14) were defeated by a 4 seed from one of the other Semi States. 

 

Fort Wayne has a lot of good teams, especially a lot of good small school teams.  But what it’s missing is the same or similar level of large schools that are present in the other semi-states.  Here’s the numbers from 2021 using IHSWCA class criteria.  4A is Indiana’s largest 35 schools and 3A is Indiana’s next largest 61 teams.

 

Semi State	East Chicago	Evansville	Fort Wayne	New Castle
Teams	72	83	76	75
1A (smallest 1/3rd)	25	22	32	28
2A (middle 1/3rd)	23	30	26	23
3A (next 61 largest schools)	15	23	14	9
4A (largest 35 schools)	9	8	4	15

 

When it comes time for realignment, wouldn’t it make sense to attempt to shuffle some large schools to Fort Wayne semi-state?  Maybe the Northeast corner of Indianapolis?  Better balance could also be achieved by shifting more highly competitive teams to Fort Wayne.  IHSAA did the opposite.  Instead, they moved one of the top teams, Rochester, out of Fort Wayne to East Chicago.    

 

The IHSAA may say that regional and semi-state advancement metrics change from year to year.  They do at some level, but tracking the data allows one to easily spot patterns.  When there’s a consistent pattern, I believe it would make sense to attempt to address imbalance when there’s a state tournament realignment.  Instead, the IHSAA appears to have ignored the data and made changes that go in the opposite direction.      

 

When you have among the lowest success rates in the country and you don’t allow wrestlebacks, it makes fair/balanced sectionals, regionals and semi-state even more important.  

 

BTW, I think classing wrestling creates balance.  It wouldn’t be my first choice to send a bunch of large schools up to Fort Wayne so their small school programs experience what it’s like for small schools close to Indianapolis.  But if the wrestling community is against classing, then it seems to make sense to spread out large schools more evenly.

 

Members of the Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association have been asking to better balance semi-state.  Several proposals on this topic have been submitted.  Ideas for better balance are not acted on by the IHSAA.  Is that what the wrestling community wants?

 

If you think a reasonable level of effort should be applied to balance sectionals, regionals and semi states when it’s time for realignment, click like.