Multiple Entries for State Series

[swain358]

So you guys that are against teams being able to enter 2 extra entries are in favor of..

1. More forfeits at the sectional

2. Kids continuing to cut large amounts of weight to make their teams varsity line up.

3. Kids transferring for athletic reasons

4. Not allowing more kids to compete in our state tournament.

5. More kids quitting the sport (specifically kids above 200lbs. the football kids that we all say we want to keep in the sport)

 

Adding 2 more entrants would help alleviate these issues in wrestling. 

[Bulldog89]

4 minutes ago, swain358 said:

So you guys that are against teams being able to enter 2 extra entries are in favor of..

1. More forfeits at the sectional

2. Kids continuing to cut large amounts of weight to make their teams varsity line up.

3. Kids transferring for athletic reasons

4. Not allowing more kids to compete in our state tournament.

5. More kids quitting the sport (specifically kids above 200lbs. the football kids that we all say we want to keep in the sport)

 

Adding 2 more entrants would help alleviate these issues in wrestling. 

Serious question here, if a school did enter 2 kids at the same weight, they could eventually knock a team mate out of the Sectional?

[swain358]

54 minutes ago, Bulldog89 said:

Serious question here, if a school did enter 2 kids at the same weight, they could eventually knock a team mate out of the Sectional?

Potentially yes, that means the better guy that day won. What is wrong with that? Two kids competing against each other to determine the winner at the sectional is better than coach making the decision in my opinion. But after sectional, teammates would not meet in an elimination match during the state tournament. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by swain358

[Galagore]

58 minutes ago, swain358 said:

So you guys that are against teams being able to enter 2 extra entries are in favor of..

1. More forfeits at the sectional

2. Kids continuing to cut large amounts of weight to make their teams varsity line up.

3. Kids transferring for athletic reasons

4. Not allowing more kids to compete in our state tournament.

5. More kids quitting the sport (specifically kids above 200lbs. the football kids that we all say we want to keep in the sport)

 

Adding 2 more entrants would help alleviate these issues in wrestling. 

 

My post was in response to teams being allowed to enter multiple lineups, not the use 14 wrestlers, even if some are at the same weight scenario. That is one that I have more mixed feelings about and definitely think has some merit, but would need to discuss in a real-time conversation to fully form an opinion on.

 

Generally, though if we have too may forfeits and sectional, allowing the really good teams to wrestle even more wrestlers does not seem like a wise long-term solution.

[swain358]

1 minute ago, Galagore said:

 

My post was in response to teams being allowed to enter multiple lineups, not the use 14 wrestlers, even if some are at the same weight scenario. That is one that I have more mixed feelings about and definitely think has some merit, but would need to discuss in a real-time conversation to fully form an opinion on.

 

Generally, though if we have too may forfeits and sectional, allowing the really good teams to wrestle even more wrestlers does not seem like a wise long-term solution.

Entering 2 extra wrestlers would be for every team not just the good teams.

[Galagore]

2 hours ago, swain358 said:

Entering 2 extra wrestlers would be for every team not just the good teams.

 

Yes, again my firm stance is on multiple lineups, not adding up to 2 extra wrestlers. The 2 extra rule seems intriguing, but is not one I have fully formed an opinion on yet.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Galagore
spelling error

[aoberlin]

42 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

Yes, again my firm stance in on multiple lineups, not adding up to 2 extra wrestlers. The 2 extra rule seems intriguing, but is not one I have fully formed an opinion on yet.

I honestly don't have a full opinion on this either. I would need to play it out a little. I do think if it was done then you have to submit your lineup for the 14 wrestlers that can score in sectionals for you before sectionals and that only 1 per weight class could score. Meaning if you don't have a 106 you FF that and you don't get points for having 2 x 138 pounders. Otherwise I think coaches would FF some weight classes in order for your better backup wrestle for points. Which may seem fair but I would disagree. I think that small 100 pound 106 needs that shot and experience. 

 

But I also think it is a sign of a mature program to have wrestlers be willing to be backups until their Junior or Senior year when they can finally make the line up and not quit before them. It shows the program has some culture and pride. Like any other sport if you aren't good enough on your team to make the line up then unfortunately you are JV. That doesn't mean they can't still get all the great life lessons wrestling has for them. We had a few backups last year I think could have made it to semi-state at least. We had a JV wrestler ranked in Semi-State just because we got him enough varsity looks and he beat some quality kids. All the more reason to make your JV schedule tougher. We also know that keep a kid healthy all year is about impossible so having good kids ready to step in at anytime is big.

 

[VisionQuest87]

1 hour ago, swain358 said:

So you guys that are against teams being able to enter 2 extra entries are in favor of..

1. Kids continuing to cut large amounts of weight to make their teams varsity line up.

2. Kids continuing to cut large amounts of weight to make their teams varsity line up.

3. Kids transferring for athletic reasons

4. Not allowing more kids to compete in our state tournament.

5. More kids quitting the sport (specifically kids above 200lbs. the football kids that we all say we want to keep in the sport)

 

Adding 2 more entrants would help alleviate these issues in wrestling. 

I have not really given it much thought on the 2 extra entrants.

However, my initial response to this is:

 

1) More forfeits at the sectional . The only ones that benefit from getting less forfeits are the teams that already fill a full team.   The smaller teams aren't going to have the 2 extra wrestlers, so now the one of 8 kids on the small team might lose to the 2nd wrestler from the bigger school and not even qualify for regionals.

 

2)  Kids continuing to cut large amounts of weight to make their teams varsity line up.  Really does anyone really think this will stop kids from cutting large amounts of weight to make their team's varsity line up. That wrestler does not want to be 2 string at any weight.  Not going to happen.

 

3)  Kids transferring for athletic reasons.  Kids transferring for athletic reasons will always happen even more so than cutting weight to make their teams.

 

4)  Not allowing more kids to compete in our state tournament.  Okay understand this one.  But down side is maybe the smaller schools now have kids getting knocked out of sectionals and more big schools wrestlers at regionals, semi-state, and state.

 

5)  More kids quitting the sport (specifically kids above 200lbs. the football kids that we all say we want to keep in the sport).   I can see this being an upside to the extra wrestlers.  More entries does probably equal more kids staying in the sport.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.  Which by the way aren't even worth a nickel.

 

 

[AJ]

2 hours ago, swain358 said:

 

5. More kids quitting the sport (specifically kids above 200lbs. the football kids that we all say we want to keep in the sport)

 

 

 

I think our new weight classes do that now...  

[swain358]

20 minutes ago, VisionQuest87 said:

I have not really given it much thought on the 2 extra entrants.

However, my initial response to this is:

 

1) More forfeits at the sectional . The only ones that benefit from getting less forfeits are the teams that already fill a full team.   The smaller teams aren't going to have the 2 extra wrestlers, so now the one of 8 kids on the small team might lose to the 2nd wrestler from the bigger school and not even qualify for regionals.

 

2)  Kids continuing to cut large amounts of weight to make their teams varsity line up.  Really does anyone really think this will stop kids from cutting large amounts of weight to make their team's varsity line up. That wrestler does not want to be 2 string at any weight.  Not going to happen.

 

3)  Kids transferring for athletic reasons.  Kids transferring for athletic reasons will always happen even more so than cutting weight to make their teams.

 

4)  Not allowing more kids to compete in our state tournament.  Okay understand this one.  But down side is maybe the smaller schools now have kids getting knocked out of sectionals and more big schools wrestlers at regionals, semi-state, and state.

 

5)  More kids quitting the sport (specifically kids above 200lbs. the football kids that we all say we want to keep in the sport).   I can see this being an upside to the extra wrestlers.  More entries does probably equal more kids staying in the sport.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.  Which by the way aren't even worth a nickel.

 

 

1. We will see more full sectional brackets and that is a good thing.

 

2. It happens every year, kids cut weight to make the line up. If you think this does not happen then you are wrong. Some kids will still cut weight but that number will go down some. 

 

3. Less kids will transfer if they know there is a chance that they can still make the sectional roster. We all know it happens, kid sees that they can't make the line up so they transfer. Will some kids still transfer? Yes. But it will lower that number probably. 

 

4 and 5 are obvious. We need to give kids opportunities to compete. We lose too many good kids because they see the writing on the wall that they will not be able to wrestle varsity/sectional. Other sports have the opportunity to substitute mid game. I see it here at Center Grove all the time. Our football team is a monster and they are very good for many reason. I think one of the reasons is that they keep kids on the team through their senior year even if they are not the starter because they can substitute throughout the game. Being able to keep kids in the program will help every program. Our football team has 30-40 seniors each year. Are they all starters? No, but they eventually can get into the game. Other sports have this advantage over us/wrestling. Again, I coached at a small school so I know how tough it is. Being able to enter a couple more guys into the sectional would have helped when I was at the smaller school as well. Even if the extra entry would not have made it out the sectional, it still would have kept him/her on the team and engaged the entire season. You have to look at it as what is best for the sport, not what is best for a specific group. 

[aoberlin]

9 minutes ago, swain358 said:

Our football team has 30-40 seniors each year. 

 Holy cow! In wrestling I am happy to have 5 every year that survive.

[swain358]

Enter 16 wrestlers but only score 14 at the sectional. From there, your school scores whoever is still alive in the state tournament. Real simple

[aoberlin]

8 minutes ago, swain358 said:

Enter 16 wrestlers but only score 14 at the sectional. From there, your school scores whoever is still alive in the state tournament. Real simple

Max of 2 per weight class? If you have someone in that weight class can you take a FF in one weight class but put 2 in another?

[swain358]

I would personally say max a team could enter is 2 in a weight class which would mean you could technically fill 8 weight classes with 2 kids if you wanted. But I know the IHSAA would never go for that. Best way to get it to pass though to the IHSAA would be you can only add one extra wrester to two weight classes. So the maximum number of weight classes that you could enter an extra wrestler is two. 

[Cmoney125]

Why don't we just get rid of sectionals if we are worried about forfeits? Just start at the regional level? Sectionals in most places are a forgone conclusion anyways.

[ReformedPoster]

3 hours ago, swain358 said:

Potentially yes, that means the better guy that day won. What is wrong with that? Two kids competing against each other to determine the winner at the sectional is better than coach making the decision in my opinion. But after sectional, teammates would not meet in an elimination match during the state tournament. 

That's what wrestle offs are for.  The kids determine who is in the line up and who isn't.

 

Sure they could.  They could finish 2nd and 3rd at regional and be in the same half of the bracket at semi state.  If they both win their first match, they meet in the ticket round.

[BrodyHardcastle]

8 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

That's what wrestle offs are for.  The kids determine who is in the line up and who isn't.

 

Sure they could.  They could finish 2nd and 3rd at regional and be in the same half of the bracket at semi state.  If they both win their first match, they meet in the ticket round.

They would not meet in the ticket round.

Edited September 5, 2023 by BrodyHardcastle

[Y2CJ41]

Allowing 16 total entries would benefit the stronger programs a lot.

 

Having 14 entries with the option of having up to two wrestlers per weight is a good start to get things rolling. Many of the teams with 10 or less kids will have one or two that end up being JV and get very few matches. With them having that ability to dangle the carrot of wrestling at sectional they would be more likely to stick around.

 

Another positive is that there would be a lot less likelihood of having over 16 wrestlers in a bracket at sectional. More than 16 would create chaos that we don't need. There would still need to be protocols as any sectional with 9 or more teams could possibly run into an issue.

 

As far as a coach dropping a starter for someone else at sectional. That is a coaching decision and a part of the job. Other coaches have these types of decisions all of the time. Wrestling is almost too easy in that sense.

 

I have no issues with either scenario having everyone score points. At the NAIA level they have rules in place for when wrestlers from the same team face each other. I believe they do not give bonus points in those matches so a kid doesn't "throw" a match.

 

If I were to guess, the IHSAA would be much more likely to allow up to two entries with a total of 14 than allowing 16 total entries.

[swain358]

4 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Allowing 16 total entries would benefit the stronger programs a lot.

 

Having 14 entries with the option of having up to two wrestlers per weight is a good start to get things rolling. Many of the teams with 10 or less kids will have one or two that end up being JV and get very few matches. With them having that ability to dangle the carrot of wrestling at sectional they would be more likely to stick around.

 

Another positive is that there would be a lot less likelihood of having over 16 wrestlers in a bracket at sectional. More than 16 would create chaos that we don't need. There would still need to be protocols as any sectional with 9 or more teams could possibly run into an issue.

 

As far as a coach dropping a starter for someone else at sectional. That is a coaching decision and a part of the job. Other coaches have these types of decisions all of the time. Wrestling is almost too easy in that sense.

 

I have no issues with either scenario having everyone score points. At the NAIA level they have rules in place for when wrestlers from the same team face each other. I believe they do not give bonus points in those matches so a kid doesn't "throw" a match.

 

If I were to guess, the IHSAA would be much more likely to allow up to two entries with a total of 14 than allowing 16 total entries.

Helping the sport and kids as a whole. It will help all programs. Not just the good programs. Would help the sport keep more athletes which is what we all want. It is a win for everyone. 

[Y2CJ41]

17 minutes ago, swain358 said:

Helping the sport and kids as a whole. It will help all programs. Not just the good programs. Would help the sport keep more athletes which is what we all want. It is a win for everyone. 

I don't disagree at all, I just think that it would be harder to get done with a higher likelihood of having a bracket with 17+ kids in it. That would require some protocols in place to prevent that or determine which schools get to enter their extra kid at that weight class.

 

For instance:
1. Coaches needing to volunteer to withdraw a wrestler to get back to 16 in the weight
2. Random "picking" of the teams that get to enter in an extra in that weight
 

It honestly would mean coaches would all need to be looking to help each other at a seeding meeting. That is quite a task to say the least!

[swain358]

36 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I don't disagree at all, I just think that it would be harder to get done with a higher likelihood of having a bracket with 17+ kids in it. That would require some protocols in place to prevent that or determine which schools get to enter their extra kid at that weight class.

 

For instance:
1. Coaches needing to volunteer to withdraw a wrestler to get back to 16 in the weight
2. Random "picking" of the teams that get to enter in an extra in that weight
 

It honestly would mean coaches would all need to be looking to help each other at a seeding meeting. That is quite a task to say the least!

Brackets over 16 would mean rounds 1 and 2 are elimination rounds. Right now, we have first round elimination matches at sectionals that have over 8 entrants. In the case of having more than 16 we would need to have 2 rounds of elimination matches if you have that round of 32 match. If not, and you have the round of 16 match, you only have one elimination match. Again, I do not think this will happen that often, but when it does, just make round 1 and 2 elimination rounds. Like I said before, this will make the sectional about one round longer but I think we all would agree that it would be worth it to keep kids wrestling. The amount of tournaments we go to throughout a calendar year and sacrifice time and money for, I would think we all would be willing to sacrifice one more round to give kids an opportunity to compete. Again, this is all pie in the sky thinking as I highly doubt the IHSAA would go for it, but I do think it is a great idea that is being done at the NAIA level that could be considered. IHSAA would have to allow athletes to wrestle 6 matches in one day at the Sectional which I could see being a hard ask. 

 

Now seeding the tournament would be a whole other can of worms LOL

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by swain358

[Ahawkeye]

Interesting topic, could this grow the sport? I think so. MD has had plenty of kids committed to the program that never cracked varsity, they even had a JV place at state (maybe more than once). They have had SS qualifiers not make the team the next year. I don't think it would stop the weight cutting. I do think it would give the other kid a shot to see how far they could make it. I hear a lot of stories about freshman not making varsity and quitting the team/sport. Maybe collectively Indiana could keep those kids wrestling. I don't think extra entrants should count towards team points. Your set varsity should do your scoring, the extras would be their own team so to speak. Very interesting though.

[Y2CJ41]

11 hours ago, swain358 said:

Brackets over 16 would mean rounds 1 and 2 are elimination rounds. Right now, we have first round elimination matches at sectionals that have over 8 entrants. In the case of having more than 16 we would need to have 2 rounds of elimination matches if you have that round of 32 match. If not, and you have the round of 16 match, you only have one elimination match. Again, I do not think this will happen that often, but when it does, just make round 1 and 2 elimination rounds. Like I said before, this will make the sectional about one round longer but I think we all would agree that it would be worth it to keep kids wrestling. The amount of tournaments we go to throughout a calendar year and sacrifice time and money for, I would think we all would be willing to sacrifice one more round to give kids an opportunity to compete. Again, this is all pie in the sky thinking as I highly doubt the IHSAA would go for it, but I do think it is a great idea that is being done at the NAIA level that could be considered. IHSAA would have to allow athletes to wrestle 6 matches in one day at the Sectional which I could see being a hard ask. 

 

Now seeding the tournament would be a whole other can of worms LOL

 

 

I guess my opinion was mainly based on the 5 match maximum per day. Now that wrestlers can wrestle in 6 matches it would appear that you could do two rounds of one and done and still have an 8 man full wrestle-back.

 

[Y2CJ41]

9 hours ago, Ahawkeye said:

Interesting topic, could this grow the sport? I think so. MD has had plenty of kids committed to the program that never cracked varsity, they even had a JV place at state (maybe more than once). They have had SS qualifiers not make the team the next year. I don't think it would stop the weight cutting. I do think it would give the other kid a shot to see how far they could make it. I hear a lot of stories about freshman not making varsity and quitting the team/sport. Maybe collectively Indiana could keep those kids wrestling. I don't think extra entrants should count towards team points. Your set varsity should do your scoring, the extras would be their own team so to speak. Very interesting though.

In response to the weight cutting it wouldn't eliminate it, but could help prevent some of it. We have all seen kids cut way more weight than they should to get into the lineup. If the school allowed multiple entries in a weight class they could definitely see that they'd be able to still wrestle the important tournament, but at a better weight. This would also help with kids wrestling up a weight class or two as they too would be able to wrestle a natural weight class for the state series.

[ReformedPoster]

18 hours ago, BrodyHardcastle said:

They would not meet in the ticket round.

Crap.  Brain fart.