jchas Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 What I have told my son on this. You have to be the Bad draw! That way you never get a bad draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benni hanna 79 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Also in the bottom quarter of the 220 bracket at Merrillville you have Potosky, Boyd, Meyer, and Williams. I don't know who will come out there. Probably Boyd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyoung Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 What do you think about the football draw? LC was playing Mishawaka for the 5a title. WC, Carmel all lost in the sectionals. Roncalli and Cathedral play every year in the first, second or Championship game of the sectionals. Is that right, those kids could argue their seasons were cut short because of a bad draw. I am just saying it happens in other sports. Old wrestler, to answer your question before you ask, yes I have seen my kids get good draws, and I have seen them get bad. You are comparing apples to oranges. #1 it's classed, and wrestling is not. You already have an advantage there... As well, 16 teams don't make the state finals in football, but 16 individuals do in wrestling. The argument against wrestle backs with the "life isn't fair sentiment" is totally wrong. If we can make it better, why wouldn't we?! Plus, you are talking about kids who in some cases may have devoted their entire life to this 'dream' of wrestling at Bankers Life.. For it to end with a crappy draw, and for adults to say to that kid "life's not fair." That's crap. Now, I know we have little say in this, and the IHSWCA has been trying to get this passed forever. However, I don't think the IHSAA needs support from anyone regarding this because the current system is flawed. Chris Young Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebels4life Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 You must misread my comment. Never mention anything about "life being fair bs". So if you fixed the semi-state problem, do you wine about the bad draw on Friday night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 The argument against wrestle backs with the "life isn't fair sentiment" is totally wrong. If we can make it better, why wouldn't we?! Chris, I think you summed it up in these 2 sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 What do you think about the football draw? LC was playing Mishawaka for the 5a title. WC, Carmel all lost in the sectionals. Roncalli and Cathedral play every year in the first, second or Championship game of the sectionals. Is that right, those kids could argue their seasons were cut short because of a bad draw. I am just saying it happens in other sports. Old wrestler, to answer your question before you ask, yes I have seen my kids get good draws, and I have seen them get bad. (I think LC played Snider for the 5a championship this past season) The difference between football and wrestling is that the IHSAA, in regards to football, purposely went to setting up games based on geography so fans could get the benefit of not having to travel two hours to see a playoff game. I understand that ss's are set up geographically as well but it's a whole different ballgame when comparing wrestling post season to football postseason. Homestead in football has almost every year run into Snider in either the first or second game of the playoffs and been bounced. I think IHSAA is interested in putting fannies in the stands for their marquee sport (football) so they probably will never move away from the geography based playoff system. As for wrestling, fairness will never get the IHSAA off the dime, but if it can be proven that more parents/friends hang around and spend more $ thanks to wrestlebacks being put in place, then they'll sit up and listen. As long as the $ coming in outweigh the little additonal expense for the bit of added time that the refs (etc) have to be paid for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benni hanna 79 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Let's talk wrestle backs on the wrestle back thread. I want to know what people think about the best ticket punch matches on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling119 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 What I have told my son on this. You have to be the Bad draw! That way you never get a bad draw. I do belive the wrestlebacks should be a part of semi-state, but until they are I think this says it perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 You must misread my comment. Never mention anything about "life being fair bs". So if you fixed the semi-state problem, do you wine about the bad draw on Friday night? we should have wrestle backs there too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 The problem w/ Wrestling is that we are a "trap" sport, we are a team and individual sport. We don't fit into either category. Should we follow the mold of other individual sports like track an swimming that in essence have "wrestlebacks"? Or do we follow the mold of team sports where it's one and done? I would think it's all the one way or all the other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 The problem w/ Wrestling is that we are a "trap" sport, we are a team and individual sport. We don't fit into either category. Should we follow the mold of other individual sports like track an swimming that in essence have "wrestlebacks"? Or do we follow the mold of team sports where it's one and done? I would think it's all the one way or all the other... when they took team state away as a sanctioned IHSAA event it seems as if the choice was made that we are an individual sport... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 when they took team state away as a sanctioned IHSAA event it seems as if the choice was made that we are an individual sport... Agreed. Now give us wrestle backs. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookies03 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 You are comparing apples to oranges. #1 it's classed, and wrestling is not. You already have an advantage there... Chris Young Last time I checked wrestling had weight classes so I think that balances out the whole classed thing. Im not against wrestlebacks but where does it stop. At some point there are always going to be unfortunate ticket round matches. Like a few people have already said "what if the top 6-7 wrestlers in the state are all coming from the same SS". Even with full wrestlebacks at the SS level people would complain that "well my wrestler is better than the wrestlers from that SS". That being said this would be my solution: Sectionals-No wrestlebacks. Its a seeded tournament so wrestlers get a chance to improve their draw with a good season of wrestling. Regionals-Full wrestlebacks but only take top 3. Semi State-Wrestlebacks only after round 2 (Lose 1st round and your done). Taking only 3 from Regionals would make wrestlebacks more feasible from a time standpoint and since there are full wrestlebacks at regional there shouldnt be an issue with only taking top 3. State-Maintain current format. Some of those Friday night matches are the most exciting (outside of championship matches) of the whole weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 it sounds like you are in fact against aginst class wrestling as you seem to think it wouldnt be a good thing for the tournament... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookies03 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 it sounds like you are in fact against aginst class wrestling as you seem to think it wouldnt be a good thing for the tournament... Against class wrestling?? I do not support class wrestling in the individual tournament. I do support what the IHSCWA is doing with the class team duals. But my post was about wrestlebacks. And at some level I am for them AND against them. I like having them to "earn your way to state". I am against them because I dont see an end in sight. IHSAA gave partial wrestlebacks at the state (people still complain), IHSAA gave full wrestlebacks at the Sectional, IHSAA gave 4 coming out of Regional, IHSAA gave wrestlebacks to 5th and yet we still have long discussions about wrestlebacks (And these are changes just in the last 15 years). If they do full wrestle backs after round 2 at state (to 3rd)... then people will want full wrestlebacks after round 1.... then wrestlebacks at SS after round 2... then after round 1 of SS... then at the Regional.... then a cross Sectional bracket because some 5th place finisher could beat the 2, 3, 4 from another sectional. I can see the post now "An easy solution: the wednesday after Sectionals the 5th place finisher will be able challenge the 4th place wrestler from the other sectional for a shot to go to Regionals. Come on IHSAA why are you living in the dark ages. Give us what we want!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I apologize I left out the word wrestlebacks...honest mistake your view on class wrestling does not bother me So we shouldnt have full wrestlebacks? Of course people will always find a way to complain but we do this with every other wrestling tournament why is this one any different? Full wrestle backs to third at all levels is what we want its pretty clear anyone who claims that the 5th place kid at a sectional is a crazy person. there will always be outliers but we have to do whats best for a majority of the cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassle On Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read..... Too bad simple sarcasm soars over your head, what happened to ticket round stupity? I name things that are stupid, stupid lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benni hanna 79 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Too bad simple sarcasm soars over your head, what happened to ticket round stupity? I name things that are stupid, stupid lol Or you could just tell the guy you were kidding instead of insulting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Last time I checked wrestling had weight classes so I think that balances out the whole classed thing. Im not against wrestlebacks but where does it stop. At some point there are always going to be unfortunate ticket round matches. Like a few people have already said "what if the top 6-7 wrestlers in the state are all coming from the same SS". Even with full wrestlebacks at the SS level people would complain that "well my wrestler is better than the wrestlers from that SS". That being said this would be my solution: Sectionals-No wrestlebacks. Its a seeded tournament so wrestlers get a chance to improve their draw with a good season of wrestling. Regionals-Full wrestlebacks but only take top 3. Semi State-Wrestlebacks only after round 2 (Lose 1st round and your done). Taking only 3 from Regionals would make wrestlebacks more feasible from a time standpoint and since there are full wrestlebacks at regional there shouldnt be an issue with only taking top 3. State-Maintain current format. Some of those Friday night matches are the most exciting (outside of championship matches) of the whole weekend. Counter points: 1. Theres a big difference between a weight class and a school classification by size. If football players are classified as positions like QB and lineman, but they still have classes. I don't understand your point. 2. Everybody understands all semi-states are not equal and it is impossible to get the top 16 wrestlers to the state. But then is it ok not to get the four best wrestlers out of the semi-state. Lets not bring the 1, 2 and 4th and 6th wrestlers to state as what commonly happens now. Thats something you can control, lets get it right up to that point. Note California has a gigantic one class tournament, and they've found a way for wrestlebacks. 3. Yea Friday night matches are exciting. Consolation finals ticket round would be just as exciting. I've been to 5 other state tournaments, and everybody loves the ticket round which is consolation finals everyhwere else. 4. No wrestlebacks at sectionals- Lets take something away we do right. So you really think the seeding process is accurate. You alway have the kid with good record and weak schedule getting the better seed than (tough schedule/average record). 5. Only 3 come out of regional- Then only 12 wrestlers go to semi-state and four guys get byes. Lets cut more wrestling out of our tournament. 6. Wreslebacks after first round- Lets get consistent and run a full tournament. I been involved in wrestling in a few different states, I've never heard or have seen on a board the argument to eliminate wrestle backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyoung Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Last time I checked wrestling had weight classes so I think that balances out the whole classed thing. Last time I checked, football has rosters full of kids (60+ easily, some probably over 100). Many, many more individuals compete in the football state finals than in your unclassed wrestling tournament with WEIGHT CLASSES! In fact, there's probably nearly as many kids representing their teams in the 5A state championship game alone than the entire line-up of kids qualifying for Friday night at Bankers Life. Rebels, you're right. You said nothing about the "life's not fair." I apologize for grouping you into that. However, that is the sentiment of many of the people that have opposed it. Someone else pointed out, if we do it for semi-state, where does it stop? I can help you with that. Sectionals is seeded. No need to do it there because it is not a luck of the draw scenario. Regionals are created from two sectionals coming together, so again, no luck of the draw there either. The only place in the state tournament where luck of the draw is truly ALWAYS involved is Semi-State and first round Friday night. Both would be nice, but I would be happy and thankful to have them at semi-state, as would many, many others because qualifying for state is such a prestigious honor and goal. That's why they have the "PARADE OF CHAMPIONS" on Friday night. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bob 77 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 It doesnt matter the ranking at this point...if he is #2 or #3 in the state then he better win his match then wrestle good next weekend and get up on the podium and get his medal. Watch the 170 kid from Elwood. He has a tough tough match in the ticket round but the kid is a gamer. Lighten up Francis, I bet your #170 isn't a #2 or #3 state ranked wrestler who has only 1 loss who has split with the current #1,or the #3 who's only losses this year has been to the current #1 and #2 ranked state is he? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpartanDog Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Lighten up Francis, I bet your #170 isn't a #2 or #3 state ranked wrestler who has only 1 loss who has split with the current #1,or the #3 who's only losses this year has been to the current #1 and #2 ranked state is he? lol LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookies03 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I apologize I left out the word wrestlebacks...honest mistake your view on class wrestling does not bother me So we shouldnt have full wrestlebacks? Of course people will always find a way to complain but we do this with every other wrestling tournament why is this one any different? Full wrestle backs to third at all levels is what we want its pretty clear anyone who claims that the 5th place kid at a sectional is a crazy person. there will always be outliers but we have to do whats best for a majority of the cases. Counter points: 1. Theres a big difference between a weight class and a school classification by size. If football players are classified as positions like QB and lineman, but they still have classes. I don't understand your point. 2. Everybody understands all semi-states are not equal and it is impossible to get the top 16 wrestlers to the state. But then is it ok not to get the four best wrestlers out of the semi-state. Lets not bring the 1, 2 and 4th and 6th wrestlers to state as what commonly happens now. Thats something you can control, lets get it right up to that point. Note California has a gigantic one class tournament, and they've found a way for wrestlebacks. 3. Yea Friday night matches are exciting. Consolation finals ticket round would be just as exciting. I've been to 5 other state tournaments, and everybody loves the ticket round which is consolation finals everyhwere else. 4. No wrestlebacks at sectionals- Lets take something away we do right. So you really think the seeding process is accurate. You alway have the kid with good record and weak schedule getting the better seed than (tough schedule/average record). 5. Only 3 come out of regional- Then only 12 wrestlers go to semi-state and four guys get byes. Lets cut more wrestling out of our tournament. 6. Wreslebacks after first round- Lets get consistent and run a full tournament. I been involved in wrestling in a few different states, I've never heard or have seen on a board the argument to eliminate wrestle backs. It looks like you are full wrestlebacks or nothing. That will not make changes. While it seems simple to just go to full wrestlebacks there are lots of things to consider. Longer tournamnets, more pay to officials and mat help, possbly a rule change to allow 6 matches in a day. My suggestion is a reasonable solution to getting wrestlebacks that matter (at Regional and from the quarterfinals matches on at SS). If you want to do full wrestlebacks at SS you would have to start Friday night. Thats potentially a lot of hotel costs to schools and officials. You will struggle to get the IHSAA agree to something that cost a significant amount more money to schools. And it was in the last 5 years that the IHSAA started advancing 4 out of the regional. Only taking 3 wouldnt decrease the number of matches it would be the same as the current system (224 matches with take 4 no wrestlebacks, 224 matches taking 3 with wrestlebacks after round 2) and probably the most realistic way to get wrestlebacks into semistate considering adding full wrestlebacks would create 392 matches when the current format is 224 matches. Like I said, I am not total against wrestlebacks but we have to consider that full wrestlebacks are not much of a possibility in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I feel that the way we can do this and stay within the rules Keep sectionals the way it is take 4 Regionals wrestle back to third take 4 SemiState Wreste back From Quarters Take 4 State Full Wrestlebacks 2 rds Friday Finish the rest on Saturday. Prefer to have full at SS but unless we get a 6th Match cant happen And no this wont happen next year....its gonna be a long process...Ive been saying for a couple weeks that we should fight for a true fourth for next year at regionals and semi state if we cant get anything for third. Give that 5th Place Conso bracket some meaning. Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the situation Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 A perfect example is from a couple years ago schoettle vs eppert in the ticket round of new castle. both state placers, one was already a previous state champ, one had to go home due to the fact there were no wrestlebacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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