Class Warfare

[Y2CJ41]

Unless you were born within the last week, you know that I have a thing for class wrestling.  With this year's results I decided to "study" the duals and how teams in different classes fared against eachother.  Here are the results:

 

Classes Record Percentage

1A vs 1A 326-326 0.00%

1A vs 2A 168-310 35.15%

1A vs 3A 59-158 27.19%

2A vs 1A 310-168 64.85%

2A vs 2A 300-300 0.00%

2A vs 3A 164-330 33.20%

3A vs 1A 158-59 72.81%

3A vs 2A 330-164 66.80%

3A vs 3A 444-444 0.00%

 

*Note that when teams of the same class wrestle it cancels things out. I kept those stats in there to see how many times schools wrestled others of the same size.

 

This year's Big Bullies aka 3A teams beating up on 1A teams are

Connersville with a stellar 10-0 record against the little guys and East Central who is 7-0 against the little guys.

 

This year's it's not the size of the dog in the fight teams are

Adams Central and Triton Central who are 6-4 and 6-5 against the big boys.  Prairie Heights, Southridge and Hammond Bishop Noll all have 4 wins against 3A teams.

 

The 2A Giant Killers are

New Prairie with 9 wins and Bellmont and Danville with 8

 

The 2A Little Brother Beaters are 2A vs 1A

Twin Lakes with 17 wins against no defeats

Boonville and Centerville with 11 wins each

Glenn and Rochester with 10 wins each

 

The 3A Little Brother Beaters are 3A vs 2A

New Palestine and Plymouth with 10 wins(New Pal 0 losses, Plymouth 2 losses)

Connersville, East Central and Westfield with 9 wins

Carroll(Fort Wayne), Columbus North and Mooresville are all 7-0 also

Discuss this amongst yourselves.

 

[Bash513]

Just out of curiousity, what class is MD considered for this research.  I am guessing 3A which I think is appropriate as they elected to be there for team state.

[Y2CJ41]

Mater Dei is considered 3A

 

In our wonderous results section you can see these stats for your favorite or least favorite teams.

[hook and half]

Unless you were born within the last week, you know that I have a thing for class wrestling.  With this year's results I decided to "study" the duals and how teams in different classes fared against eachother.  Here are the results:

 

Classes Record Percentage

1A vs 1A 326-326 0.00%

1A vs 2A 168-310 35.15%

1A vs 3A 59-158 27.19%

2A vs 1A 310-168 64.85%

2A vs 2A 300-300 0.00%

2A vs 3A 164-330 33.20%

3A vs 1A 158-59 72.81%

3A vs 2A 330-164 66.80%

3A vs 3A 444-444 0.00%

 

*Note that when teams of the same class wrestle it cancels things out. I kept those stats in there to see how many times schools wrestled others of the same size.

 

This year's Big Bullies aka 3A teams beating up on 1A teams are

Connersville with a stellar 10-0 record against the little guys and East Central who is 7-0 against the little guys.

 

This year's it's not the size of the dog in the fight teams are

Adams Central and Triton Central who are 6-4 and 6-5 against the big boys.  Prairie Heights, Southridge and Hammond Bishop Noll all have 4 wins against 3A teams.

 

The 2A Giant Killers are

New Prairie with 9 wins and Bellmont and Danville with 8

 

The 2A Little Brother Beaters are 2A vs 1A

Twin Lakes with 17 wins against no defeats

Boonville and Centerville with 11 wins each

Glenn and Rochester with 10 wins each

 

The 3A Little Brother Beaters are 3A vs 2A

New Palestine and Plymouth with 10 wins(New Pal 0 losses, Plymouth 2 losses)

Connersville, East Central and Westfield with 9 wins

Carroll(Fort Wayne), Columbus North and Mooresville are all 7-0 also

Discuss this amongst yourselves.

 

 

i love it!  especially the "big bully" tag.  y2, did you notice that some of the teams with less-flattering monikers complain about "no respect"?  hmmm.

[only davit]

Both sides could be happy in this arguement.  Keep the individual the same and have a classed team tournament.  It just means more kids having an opportunity to wrestle.  This would bring up the "Watered Down vs. Our state eventually getting better" debate back.

 

Eventually teams would keep getting better and better the more mat time they get throughout the season.

 

More wrestling would eventually (I hope) bring out better quality overall!

[Fabio Jr.]

id prefer that method if i held any ground on the subject but just lets remember thatr ohio illinois and pennsylvania all are classed and i wouldnt say they are watered down ahah

[Cosgrove]

the sport is not big enough to split wrestling in different classes hahah we already lose ot illinois ohio pennsylvania new jersey the sport is waaaaay bigger there youd make different divisions and yeah some kids feel more happy since there are more state champions but i would honestly hate that so much if i won a title and knew there was another guy or two other guys who won title and wouldnt get to beat them for their tittle as well you win here you are the best in at your weight in one division. only thing would give some small schools a chance to do well in team stuff with the class stuff but wrestling is an individual team sport only one guy out there wrestling another opponent.

[Butt Drag]

Nice review. I am a single class purist, but at the end of the day I am coming around, if it gets and keeps more kids wrestling, then I am all for it.

 

#1 - How would you quantify the class changes for basketball on kids playing, going to college, etc. ?  What can IHSAA wrestling learn from that?

 

#2 - Coaching - Regardless of class, when it is all said and done, it all boils down to coaching, coaching quality, and coaching continuity.  The sharing of knowlege and wrestling leadership development (in addition to others ideas of getting more former wrestlers, now professionals, involved in IHSAA Gambino family) need to be explored to change the culture of Indiana wrestling.

 

If you want the sport of wrestling to grow in Indiana, regardless of class, the IHSAA, USA Wrestling, IHSWCA, etc. collectively, for the sport, needs to continue to improve at working closer together in putting a more stringent program on coaching and program development that covers technique, rules, managing teams, coaching and discipline techniques, developing kids programs, etc.  At the same time, continuing to get back to coaches teaching in the school (for pay, continuity, and benefits reasons), needs to be included.

 

As necessary as the CIA, RWA, etc. are for top end development, they might not help in developing better coaches, and in some cases they can help serve as a farm team for some programs. (for example Eddie P has made ome Indy coach's job much easier).

 

The coaching AND leadership are what make the difference in all programs. Just take a look at the best programs or good programs over time,  Some examples, regardless of class:

> EMD - Mike Goebel - the incredible run, and by all comparisons after he steps down, they are dissappearing. 

 

> Gary Roosevelt Track - 1980's-1990's - Gary Roosevelt track coach John Campbell leads them to 9 or 10 state championships. He retires, and eventually the program for disintegrates.

 

> Portage - Loses to PM 60-0? Are you kidding me?  Larry Tharp would have those kids running for weeks.  The Larry's of the profession show that you don't have to know jack about wrestling technique, but someone with the ability to inflict discipline can make a difference...

 

> Delta - Not everyone's favorite, but a smaller school back in the 80's that won 5 Titles - again, it was program building (Patton, coach and assts and knowledgable parents)

 

But in reality, if it is like this for the team that endure the great runs, it is even tougher for those

in the middle.  Continuing to improve the profession is vital. 

 

 

Unless you were born within the last week, you know that I have a thing for class wrestling.  With this year's results I decided to "study" the duals and how teams in different classes fared against eachother.  Here are the results:

 

Classes Record Percentage

1A vs 1A 326-326 0.00%

1A vs 2A 168-310 35.15%

1A vs 3A 59-158 27.19%

2A vs 1A 310-168 64.85%

2A vs 2A 300-300 0.00%

2A vs 3A 164-330 33.20%

3A vs 1A 158-59 72.81%

3A vs 2A 330-164 66.80%

3A vs 3A 444-444 0.00%

 

*Note that when teams of the same class wrestle it cancels things out. I kept those stats in there to see how many times schools wrestled others of the same size.

 

This year's Big Bullies aka 3A teams beating up on 1A teams are

Connersville with a stellar 10-0 record against the little guys and East Central who is 7-0 against the little guys.

 

This year's it's not the size of the dog in the fight teams are

Adams Central and Triton Central who are 6-4 and 6-5 against the big boys.  Prairie Heights, Southridge and Hammond Bishop Noll all have 4 wins against 3A teams.

 

The 2A Giant Killers are

New Prairie with 9 wins and Bellmont and Danville with 8

 

The 2A Little Brother Beaters are 2A vs 1A

Twin Lakes with 17 wins against no defeats

Boonville and Centerville with 11 wins each

Glenn and Rochester with 10 wins each

 

The 3A Little Brother Beaters are 3A vs 2A

New Palestine and Plymouth with 10 wins(New Pal 0 losses, Plymouth 2 losses)

Connersville, East Central and Westfield with 9 wins

Carroll(Fort Wayne), Columbus North and Mooresville are all 7-0 also

Discuss this amongst yourselves.

 

[cyoung]

I know that New Pal is one of the smallest 3A schools. When wrestling a school that is 2A, they are definitely wrestling a school with closer enrollment numbers vs. when they wrestle most 3A teams. A problem with class is that the largest 3A schools are way disproportionate compared to anyone else, making an argument for fairness a bit moot.

[TeamInjuryTime07]

Butt Drag,

I agree with a lot of what you said but this part is really off base..

Portage - Loses to PM 60-0? Are you kidding me?  Larry Tharp would have those kids running for weeks.  The Larry's of the profession show that you don't have to know jack about wrestling technique, but someone with the ability to inflict discipline can make a difference...

 

So after the weeks of running would these 14 really in shape kids have scored more points against a great Perry team. I have no affiliation with Portage but in the last two years I think coach Vega has done a tremendous job with his team a revitalizing a a program with good wrestling tradition. Portage has some very quality wins this season and also came within 4 points of a very tough Bloomington south team. If you are going to use results against Perry as a measuring stick for the quality of coaches in Indiana then we are not doing so great.

[Y2CJ41]

the sport is not big enough to split wrestling in different classes hahah we already lose ot illinois ohio pennsylvania new jersey the sport is waaaaay bigger there youd make different divisions and yeah some kids feel more happy since there are more state champions but i would honestly hate that so much if i won a title and knew there was another guy or two other guys who won title and wouldnt get to beat them for their tittle as well you win here you are the best in at your weight in one division. only thing would give some small schools a chance to do well in team stuff with the class stuff but wrestling is an individual team sport only one guy out there wrestling another opponent.

Those states all have class wrestling.

[Y2CJ41]

Nice review. I am a single class purist, but at the end of the day I am coming around, if it gets and keeps more kids wrestling, then I am all for it.

 

#1 - How would you quantify the class changes for basketball on kids playing, going to college, etc. ?  What can IHSAA wrestling learn from that?

 

More kids would be showcased at our state tournament.  Therefore more coaches would come to our state finals. Think about going to Indiana state finals to watch 224 wrestlers or going to Ohio's for 672 wrestlers. Simple math there.

 

More kids would earn placements earlier in their career.  Therefore they would put more time into the sport in the offseason and thus hit more national tournaments. Both helping them improve.

 

#2 - Coaching - Regardless of class, when it is all said and done, it all boils down to coaching, coaching quality, and coaching continuity.  The sharing of knowlege and wrestling leadership development (in addition to others ideas of getting more former wrestlers, now professionals, involved in IHSAA Gambino family) need to be explored to change the culture of Indiana wrestling.

 

If you want the sport of wrestling to grow in Indiana, regardless of class, the IHSAA, USA Wrestling, IHSWCA, etc. collectively, for the sport, needs to continue to improve at working closer together in putting a more stringent program on coaching and program development that covers technique, rules, managing teams, coaching and discipline techniques, developing kids programs, etc.  At the same time, continuing to get back to coaches teaching in the school (for pay, continuity, and benefits reasons), needs to be included.

 

As necessary as the CIA, RWA, etc. are for top end development, they might not help in developing better coaches, and in some cases they can help serve as a farm team for some programs. (for example Eddie P has made ome Indy coach's job much easier).

 

The coaching AND leadership are what make the difference in all programs. Just take a look at the best programs or good programs over time,  Some examples, regardless of class:

> EMD - Mike Goebel - the incredible run, and by all comparisons after he steps down, they are dissappearing. 

 

> Gary Roosevelt Track - 1980's-1990's - Gary Roosevelt track coach John Campbell leads them to 9 or 10 state championships. He retires, and eventually the program for disintegrates.

 

> Portage - Loses to PM 60-0? Are you kidding me?  Larry Tharp would have those kids running for weeks.  The Larry's of the profession show that you don't have to know jack about wrestling technique, but someone with the ability to inflict discipline can make a difference...

 

> Delta - Not everyone's favorite, but a smaller school back in the 80's that won 5 Titles - again, it was program building (Patton, coach and assts and knowledgable parents)

 

But in reality, if it is like this for the team that endure the great runs, it is even tougher for those

in the middle.  Continuing to improve the profession is vital. 

 

 

The biggest difference in coaching is the following that big schools have to offer

1. Better pay(teaching and coaching)

2. More paid assistants

3. Better facilities

4. Better locations to academies and other off season training

 

All four make coaching at a bigger school more enticing for a coaching looking for a job.

[Fabio Jr.]

I can see Brennans arguement, but I also know that I know a few ohio state champs of various classes...They were definatly not upset that there were other state champs. Maybe its because that is all they ever knew but it never bothered them. Its a little different but the NCAA is basically classed. Now with the oopen enrollment rules its not THAT different. Im sure if you ask Antonio Guerra (2x NCAA champ and 4x AA) , Andy Uhl (4 time NCAA AA and National Champion) or Michael Lybarger (2x OHSAA Runner Up and NCAA D2 National Champion) they will all claim to have been National Champs Being d2 or whatever. If it will put more kids on the mat and give them better shots at college (which lets be honest this should be our main goal to get these kids in some sort of higher level education) Im all for listening to and considering changes to the current format.

[1oldwrestler]

If it will put more kids on the mat and give them better shots at college (which lets be honest this should be our main goal to get these kids in some sort of higher level education) Im all for listening to and considering changes to the current format.

 

For the miniscule amount of money given to a kid to wrestle (no matter what level they go to), I would say having  them concentrate on studies and get good standardized tests scores is a better way of getting kids to college than using wrestling as the vehicle.  Wrestling at the next level is a luxury and something only the truly dedicated will do for four years while in college.  Once in college, most kids should worry about grades and if they can maintain grades AND wrestle, that looks good on a resume.  How many of the very best kids ever to wrestle in Indiana have stopped a year or two into college?  Way more than actually wrestle 4 years. I do believe class wrestling will promote the popularity of wrestling but to say we should do it as a means of getting kids into college, I believe, is not a good reason.

[base]

The numbers are interesting, but I don't consider them that meaningful because I don't forsee the smaller teams competing during the season exclusively against other small teams.  Would mean a LOT of travel.  Maybe even more travel for the 3A teams to travel and only compete against other large-school teams.

 

I'm curious how the individual tournament would work if it were classed, but I'll open the can of worms and post that in another topic.

[Fabio Jr.]

I agree its not gonna be the main reason kids will get in to college. But if it could help more kids get noticed by the small area schools it would be a good thing. Without wrestling I don't know if I would have gotten through college. Trust me there were days I was ready to pack it up and move home and work in a factory. But i was essentially being paid (albeit very little) to wrestle there and to do that I had to keep my grades up and make sure i was still getting my workouts in. Was it hard yeah but for me I needed something to push me and motivate me and my team was that motivation. If we can get some of these smaller schools interested in our lesser known wrestlers I would argue it could help these kids become the successful Men we want them to be.

 

Will wrestling get them through college. No they will have to work as hard or harder than they did at high school. Could wrestling help push them in the right direction. I think so. Will theire be kids who still dont folow through with college? Yeah its not for everyone but if we can lower that number even a little bit, it's something worth discussing.

 

A more indepth look at my (measly) 2 cents

[Cosgrove]

yes I know those state have classed systems but the sport is a whole lot bigger than our in our state you split us up it is going to look bad hahaha imagine sending a couple of our state champs to go against illinois in the indiana illinois all star dual which we usually lose besids a couple times because not everyone participates. I am only for changing classed wrest;ling to find a dual team state championship individual is individual and as a state we are not bad at wrestling we keep chasing the top states where i know there are alot of other state that would love to be as good as we are but as i stated here and above i love there only being one state champ we dont want t ochange into basketball hahahahahha

[Y2CJ41]

yes I know those state have classed systems but the sport is a whole lot bigger than our in our state you split us up it is going to look bad hahaha imagine sending a couple of our state champs to go against illinois in the indiana illinois all star dual which we usually lose besids a couple times because not everyone participates. I am only for changing classed wrest;ling to find a dual team state championship individual is individual and as a state we are not bad at wrestling we keep chasing the top states where i know there are alot of other state that would love to be as good as we are but as i stated here and above i love there only being one state champ we dont want t ochange into basketball hahahahahha

Did you know about 75% of the state qualifiers are from schools that are in the upper half of enrollment?

 

The state is big enough for two classes in wrestling and the finals would be very competitive.

Last year would have had

106- Micic vs. Lee

113- Phillips vs LaHue

120- Petrov vs Goebel

126- Crume vs Carroll

132- Batt vs Blanton

138- Jackson vs Lannert

145- Faurote vs Giffin

152- Richey vs McCloskey

And so on, not too shabby of some match-ups.

[Cosgrove]

I will tell you what Alex griffen would have liked ot win a state title but to be the best he had to take out the best at the time devon jackson and he lost in the semis hahah dont think he would have wanted to go against anyone else for a different title class for team my mind will never change if this class system changes may see me out of high school wrestling and just into youth wrestling

[Y2CJ41]

I will tell you what Alex griffen would have liked ot win a state title but to be the best he had to take out the best at the time devon jackson and he lost in the semis hahah dont think he would have wanted to go against anyone else for a different title class for team my mind will never change if this class system changes may see me out of high school wrestling and just into youth wrestling

I am sure he and you would have celebrated him winning whether Devon Jackson was there or not. What if Jackson were injured, would you have not celebrated?  I don't think so.

 

Teams in smaller classes in other sports celebrate their titles and the same would happen with a kid that wins a classed title in wrestling.

[AJ]

Did you know about 75% of the state qualifiers are from schools that are in the upper half of enrollment?

 

 

Is that data just from last year or another time frame?

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

Over 12 years of data showed that.

[Cosgrove]

you said it exactly TEAMS wrestling is individual

[Loki27]

Did you know about 75% of the state qualifiers are from schools that are in the upper half of enrollment?

 

What is your point?

[Y2CJ41]

Did you know about 75% of the state qualifiers are from schools that are in the upper half of enrollment?

 

What is your point?

That in a single class environment it is supposed to be equal, yet if you are a wrestler from a big school you are 3X more likely to be a state qualifier.