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Class Warfare


Y2CJ41

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I just joined the conversation, but I would say false to both.  I mean I get where you're going with your questions, but I don't think that you are going to get 100% accuracy with those questions.  In theory, your thought process makes sense with more you get a better chance, but it does not always translate.

 

So why are sports across the country classed?

 

So why do 75% of the state qualifiers come from schools in the upper half of enrollment?

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Indiana only has 300 some schools there is just no justifiable reason to class individual state. I would venture to guess the states with individual class state probably have two or three times as many schools where it just makes more sense.

 

Most states with smaller populations than IN have multiple classes.  Heres a short list of # classes  for comparison:

 

Mo=4, KS=4, NE=4, IA=3, CO=4, OK=4, WI= 3, NV= 3, WS =3 Or=5, AR=6, MT=2 (14 schools in big class).

Very few states have one class.   Not saying its right or wrong,  but the national trend has been to more classes.

 

Just 4 comparision as I grew up in KS and still get on their board.   They often have a big debate how watered down the state tournament is, kind of the opposite of this debate.

 

 

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True or False Test

Please answer true or false to these statements

1. Single class athletics means that everyone is equal and has an equal chance of winning

2. Having more students to choose from for an athletic team is an advantage

 

Two questions, two answers please.

 

1. True- each indivdual has the same chance, but teams who have more good indivduals will have more indivduals advance.

2. True- it gives a TEAM an advantage

 

 

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Because those teams happen to have more good indivduals based on the fact that they have a bigger pool of indivduals to choose from, imo.

So having a larger pool of athletes is not an advantage?

 

Why are there 40+ states with classes wrestling for individuals? How does Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Illinois keep producing studs in such a watered down environment.

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Most states with smaller populations than IN have multiple classes.  Heres a short list of # classes  for comparison:

 

Mo=4, KS=4, NE=4, IA=3, CO=4, OK=4, WI= 3, NV= 3, WS =3 Or=5, AR=6, MT=2 (14 schools in big class).

Very few states have one class.  Not saying its right or wrong,  but the national trend has been to more classes.

 

Just 4 comparision as I grew up in KS and still get on their board.  They often have a big debate how watered down the state tournament is, kind of the opposite of this debate.

 

 

Two classes in Indiana would be fine. We would still have the 7th toughest state tournament in terms of how many kids qualify for state.

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I am sure that this argument has been made a million times, but I’m going to go ahead and believe that I’m the first to make it.  Every year that we start the winter sports season, I look down onto the basketball floor and think about what an easy job that would be.  They have 5 starters, and what………5 or 6 guys on the bench for their varsity team.  These players do not have to be of a certain weight, they can be of any size.  They compete in a 4 CLASS SYSTEM. On the other hand, we need to have 14 guys on our team, all of different sizes (weights), and then we have to compete with schools of all sizes because our sport isn’t classed.  You cannot tell me that it is not a tremendous advantage (in securing  14 varsity wrestlers), from the team aspect, to have 1200 guys to pick from  in your high school compared to 400……..It boggles my mind for anyone to say that it isn’t

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I am sure that this argument has been made a million times, but I’m going to go ahead and believe that I’m the first to make it.  Every year that we start the winter sports season, I look down onto the basketball floor and think about what an easy job that would be.  They have 5 starters, and what………5 or 6 guys on the bench for their varsity team.  These players do not have to be of a certain weight, they can be of any size.  They compete in a 4 CLASS SYSTEM. On the other hand, we need to have 14 guys on our team, all of different sizes (weights), and then we have to compete with schools of all sizes because our sport isn’t classed.  You cannot tell me that it is not a tremendous advantage (in securing  14 varsity wrestlers), from the team aspect, to have 1200 guys to pick from  in your high school compared to 400……..It boggles my mind for anyone to say that it isn’t

 

what he said.......

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So having a larger pool of athletes is not an advantage?

 

Why are there 40+ states with classes wrestling for individuals? How does Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Illinois keep producing studs in such a watered down environment.

Larger talent pool would give you a better team, not a better indivdual.  Look at football.  Jason Nicodemus was a good football player for us.  He would be a good football player for Snider.  Snider is bigger, thus they have more good football players, thus a better football team than us.  That is why football and other team sports are classed. That does not mean that the school had any effect on an indivdual football player, Jason would be a good football player were ever he went.  He would just be more likely to be surrounded by other good football players at a larger school.  So to answer your question a larger talent pool makes better teams, not indivduals imo.

As for the second part of your question, I dont know why 40 other states have classed indivdual tournaments.

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Larger talent pool would give you a better team, not a better indivdual.  Look at football.  Jason Nicodemus was a good football player for us.  He would be a good football player for Snider.  Snider is bigger, thus they have more good football players, thus a better football team than us.  That is why football and other team sports are classed. That does not mean that the school had any effect on an indivdual football player, Jason would be a good football player were ever he went.  He would just be more likely to be surrounded by other good football players at a larger school.  So to answer your question a larger talent pool makes better teams, not indivduals imo.

As for the second part of your question, I dont know why 40 other states have classed indivdual tournaments.

So having a solid practice partner doesn't help anyone? Having someone to push you day in and day out doesn't help an athlete?

 

Do you think that those 40+ states believe that there is a big advantage to individuals at big schools?

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Two classes in Indiana would be fine. We would still have the 7th toughest state tournament in terms of how many kids qualify for state.

Curious, as far as rankings go do you feel a win against say the 12th ranked wrestler in the small school division in Ohio is on the same level of quality as beating the 12th ranked wrestler in Indiana?

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Two classes in Indiana would be fine. We would still have the 7th toughest state tournament in terms of how many kids qualify for state.

 

 

I'm just throwing out an idea for potential compromise on the state tounament that could be the 1 classers and the multi classers happy.  And yes I know how difficult it is to change something at the ISHSAA, so this is unrealistic.  But it doesn't mean its a bad idea.  So take a look at with open mind.   I call it Grand State.

 

1.  Have  a 3 class state tournament which would have 3 class champions but not a not a state champ.   (Tournaments could be done in 3 weeks and sectionals and regionals could be combined.)

2.  Take the 4th week and have a Grand state tournament.  Take the top 4 kids from each class and have a tournament from these kids (12 man bracket).   The winner of each weight class would be the Indiana Champion.

 

 

Benefits would be the small school kids would still have a more realistic shot at least winning the class championship,  you could legitimately crown 3 team champions based on points,  you would have enough wrestling time to have wrestlebacks, and the end result would still be the cherished one class state championship.

 

Just food for thought.   And Fabio, I'm not going to organize, arrange or request it to the ISHSAA so no need to add you patronizing comment and give me the number and email address for the ISHAA rules committe.

 

 

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That does not mean that the school had any effect on an indivdual football player, Jason would be a good football player were ever he went.  He would just be more likely to be surrounded by other good football players at a larger school. 

 

Being surrounded by other good players has zero effect on the individual?

 

If Jason would have been able to devote his spring to wrestling because the was 12 fastest kid in his school instead of the first or second, would that have had any effect on his wrestling?

 

 

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I'm just throwing out an idea for potential compromise on the state tounament that could be the 1 classers and the multi classers happy.  And yes I know how difficult it is to change something at the ISHSAA, so this is unrealistic.  But it doesn't mean its a bad idea.  So take a look at with open mind.   I call it Grand State.

 

1.  Have  a 3 class state tournament which would have 3 class champions but not a not a state champ.   (Tournaments could be done in 3 weeks and sectionals and regionals could be combined.)

2.  Take the 4th week and have a Grand state tournament.  Take the top 4 kids from each class and have a tournament from these kids (12 man bracket).   The winner of each weight class would be the Indiana Champion.

 

 

Benefits would be the small school kids would still have a more realistic shot at least winning the class championship,  you could legitimately crown 3 team champions based on points,  you would have enough wrestling time to have wrestlebacks, and the end result would still be the cherished one class state championship.

 

Just food for thought.   And Fabio, I'm not going to organize, arrange or request it to the ISHSAA so no need to add you patronizing comment and give me the number and email address for the ISHAA rules committe.

 

 

How many other states do this?

 

The IHSAA tried this with basketball and it failed miserably because of the ....dominance of the big schools.

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Curious, as far as rankings go do you feel a win against say the 12th ranked wrestler in the small school division in Ohio is on the same level of quality as beating the 12th ranked wrestler in Indiana?

 

The same as beating the 12th ranked TEAM in 1A or the 12th ranked TEAM in all classes....right?

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I wonder how many Individual State Champions/Team Championships coach Tonte, McGuinley ect would have in their career if they coached at like say Sheridan, Turkey Run , Elwood ect ect....

Coach Tonte actually started coaching at a small school. I want to say Speedway, but not sure. He had some success there, but surprisingly no state champions or team state titles.

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Being surrounded by other good players has zero effect on the individual?

 

If Jason would have been able to devote his spring to wrestling because the was 12 fastest kid in his school instead of the first or second, would that have had any effect on his wrestling?

 

 

 

Thats a great question.  I was actaully thinking about that today, I generally feel that participating in three sports is the best way for an athlete to max out their potential, always competing, getting stronger, less burnout, ect. I think you could resonably argue that focusing on one sport is the better way to max a guy out.  I think that there are plenty of examples of top one sport athletes and top three sport atheletes, so I dont think you can make a conclusion one way or the other on that one.

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How many other states do this?

 

The IHSAA tried this with basketball and it failed miserably because of the ....dominance of the big schools.

 

 

Kansas did it back in the 80s (where i got the idea),  and was popular, but they stopped it because it added an extra week to the coaches schedule.   Never has seen it anywhere else.

 

The basketball point is moot, because we have one class in wrestling now and the big schools dominate already.  Yes, they still will dominate but the small school has his day of glory and a shot at the big schools.

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Kansas did it back in the 80s (where i got the idea),  and was popular, but they stopped it because it added an extra week to the coaches schedule.  Never has seen it anywhere else.

 

The basketball point is moot, because we have one class in wrestling now and the big schools dominate already.  Yes, they still will dominate but the small school has his day of glory and a shot at the big schools.

Big schools were dominating basketball. They went to classes and had the "super" champion. It did not go over well and only lasted a few years.  In basketball the only time the little guys were relevant were the 1950's.

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