Darrick Snyder Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Devils, I certainly agree and understand with everything you are saying. I try to give teams at least a few years to improve. However, I have had to and will continue to drop teams that are uncompetitive. Trust me I/we do it...I get blasted for it on a regular basis for it...but I take a ton of pride in our tournament...and want to make it the best and most pretigious tournament in the entire state. Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 So what does Al Smith think of the wildcards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 How many are you expecting? 5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrick Snyder Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 Jimtown138, Coach Smith still swings in our/his room a couple times a week. I pretty much always go to him with almost any major plans I have with Mishawaka Wrestling. He always tells me he will give me his opinion, but ultimately I always have to do what I think is best for Mishawaka Wrestling...and my decisions will never be popular with everyone. As far as the wildcard issue, I have not discussed the idea with him in a couple years...however, I brought it up to him a couple years ago when I first tried to get my athletic department to go with the idea. Coach Smith loved the idea, but my former athletic director said no... Smooth34, I really have no idea what to expect. I have gotten a GREAT response from coaches about the idea. We will just have to wait and see. I figure even if we only add a handful of studs it will be great for those individuals and improve the competition in the tournament. Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 My athletic director called the IHSAA today. He talked to Robert Faulkners as Bobby Cox was unavailable. We were told we will have an answer within one week. At first it was brought up that it might count as 2 weighins for the enitre team. Obviously that would not work...After some dicussion, we were told it would probably just count as two weighins for the individual. They are going to discuss it and get back to us. Just wanted to let everyone know where we are at. Thanks Snyder Is the a conversion table for the IHSAA's version of 1 week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 It should be just for the individual or else many teams are going over the weigh-in allowance with the numerous JV tournaments they go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Typical snyder having sweet ideas after i graduate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 It should be just for the individual or else many teams are going over the weigh-in allowance with the numerous JV tournaments they go to. So should they stop awarding a Team Champion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 What's this year's date's of the Al Smith, and how many wildcards do you for see giving out this first year for example? Great concept, without really looking at the pro's & con's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Did a answer ever come from the IHSAA on this? My initial thought is they should say the individual would have this count toward his points for a season, because that is the basic idea behind several schools having multiple Varsity squads. they count the individuals points not each dual for one program. If they reject this idea that will mean every program in the state that fields multiple varsity squads would have been breaking the IHSAA rules. How would they deal with that fiasco. Very cool idea by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Darrick Snyder already posted "IHSAA essentially says no to Al Smith Wildcards"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Did a answer ever come from the IHSAA on this? Coach Snyder reported in another post that the IHSAA said that if anyone entered as a wildcard to the Al Smith that it would be counted against the whole team. Basically the IHSAA must have not liked the idea since that reasoning doesn't follow the rules for how points counted up. But if their interpretation of the rules was correct then any meet Varsity, Varsity 2, JV, or Freshman that occured during the year would count as point towards the entire team which is clearly not how the rules are written. It's not the first time we have seen rules handed down that doesn't fit the written rule, but were to be followed. In this case it seems IHSAA is treating wrestling as a team sport but obviously in other cases they make decisions that fit wtb there idea of it being and individual sport. Conflicting messages indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I do not believe there has been a final answer to this. There may be a way to get it done and I know that Mr. Faulkens is looking into the subject. I heard he even made a visit to Culver, Indiana on Friday to discuss this issue with another individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Sorry did not see that post. So does that mean that no team will be able to have a second varsity team this year? I know that will effect several squads around us. Be interesting to see how the IHSAA handles this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The IHSAA does not consider them second varsity squads. They consider them JV teams with separate schedules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The IHSAA does not consider them second varsity squads. They consider them JV teams with separate schedules We looked into it during a previous discussion about the Varsity 2 teams. Unless, the just recently made the adjustment in wording according to somewhere in the IHSAA rules a school is allowed to have more than one varsity squad. I'd have to go back and look at about 150 pages of the by-laws to find the wording so that may not happen any time soon. However, it did mention only one could be entered into the IHSAA sanctioned tournament. They did not say junior varsity in the wording of it though that may have been their intent when it was written. So they may consider them to be an actual second varsity allowing you to count their wins as true varsity wins for future purposes. Seems the IHSAA belief here over how to do points could conflict with more than just Varsity 2, as it would go on to effect anyone on your squad (injured, sick, JV) that wrestled in a certain event or not. So clearly it doesn't fit the actual reason for the point system. Which leads me to believe they just didn't like the idea of spliting up teams and allowing individuals seperately. Which to me means the IHSAA needs to find a different reason to not allow this type "wildcard" or "true" individual tournament to take place or them must change how points are given out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Yes my point exactly. When I was looking into this last year when we had a larger team and also when other schools were wanting to send a V2 squad to our meets this is what Bobby Cox emailed me. ... Tyson, Each member school constructs schedules for each of their sponsored teams in each sport. With regard to wrestling, a team may participate in a maximum of 18 dual meets. That rule is applicable to every team the school fields and every individual within the program. Given your example, you may send your varsity team to a tourney and that event will count as two dual meets on the team?s total schedule and two meets for every individual that participates in the event. The same holds true for every school sending teams to any sanctioned event. Thank you, Bobby Cox Assistant Commissioner IHSAA ............................................................ When I asked him to clarify so I wasn't misunderstanding him.......... ............................................................ Tyson, The Association?s main concern is that no student athlete participate in more than 18 dual meets during the regular season and no team schedule has exceeded that number. I believe it is bad practice for a school to create a second varsity team. The reality of that is it is nothing more than a junior varsity squad. I can?t imagine any coach not placing his best 14 wrestlers in any meet on the schedule that is deemed to be a varsity meet. The practice of having ?multiple varsity? teams is deceitful and stands as a disservice to your sport and verges on unethical. Sincerely, Bobby Cox Assistant Commissioner IHSAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I can?t imagine any coach not placing his best 14 wrestlers in any meet on the schedule that is deemed to be a varsity meet. This comes down to Mr. Cox not understanding that it is very hard to find enough competitions for JV wrestlers since not all teams have them and even if they do their weight classes may not line up with yours. The only reason Varsity 2 exists is to getting the rest of your team more competition instead of letting them sit on the bench almost the entire year after they have worked so hard in practice. Most JV kids barely get any matches through the year becuase the other team has no one at that of weight or your team has more than one JV at the weight. Thus Varsity 2 at least allows your top JV kid to get matches and possibly let your second or third JV kid at that weight pick up a few more matches during other dual meets. This is different than most other main team sports where most schools can field a full JV squad to compete against other schools on a regular basis. Thus most other schools have no want or need to ever create a Varsity 2 team since they get more than enough game in during their JV schedules. Heck many even have Freshman teams because of the amount of competitions. Maybe if wrestling in each school would grow a lot more we would have more true JV team duals between schools but as of right now those are very few and far between to find. It is also different than most other individual sports where you can enter multiple JV kids into the same event since it not divided into weight classes. I believe this is another situation where the IHSAA doesn't fully understand the parameters of our sport and tries to lump it together with other team and individiual sports. Seems to me if no individual exceeds the # of total points than anything that would help them get more matches and want to stay on the team would be something the IHSAA should be promoting. While I would agree that the creating of a "wildcard" situation of team points vs. individual points is an extreme example of this situation I would think a Varsity 2 team is not and should be worth having until a more established JV division can be created on most teams. The practice of having ?multiple varsity? teams is deceitful and stands as a disservice to your sport and verges on unethical. We'll its wasn't deceitful or unethical to the IHSAA by-laws at an earlier time that said a school could field more than one team varsity team for competiton, they just could only enter one itno the IHSAA tournament. Though maybe the rise of Varsity 2 squads in the last 2 years has prompted him to amend that earlier rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkraus Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Easy with the Baugo comments Joe! We could be seeing a Railroader vs. Jimmie matchup come sectional time....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecomets Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Yes my point exactly. When I was looking into this last year when we had a larger team and also when other schools were wanting to send a V2 squad to our meets this is what Bobby Cox emailed me. ... Tyson, Each member school constructs schedules for each of their sponsored teams in each sport. With regard to wrestling, a team may participate in a maximum of 18 dual meets. That rule is applicable to every team the school fields and every individual within the program. Given your example, you may send your varsity team to a tourney and that event will count as two dual meets on the team?s total schedule and two meets for every individual that participates in the event. The same holds true for every school sending teams to any sanctioned event. . Thank you, Bobby Cox Assistant Commissioner IHSAA ............................................................ When I asked him to clarify so I wasn't misunderstanding him.......... ............................................................ Tyson, The Association?s main concern is that no student athlete participate in more than 18 dual meets during the regular season and no team schedule has exceeded that number. I believe it is bad practice for a school to create a second varsity team. The reality of that is it is nothing more than a junior varsity squad. I can?t imagine any coach not placing his best 14 wrestlers in any meet on the schedule that is deemed to be a varsity meet. The practice of having ?multiple varsity? teams is deceitful and stands as a disservice to your sport and verges on unethical. Sincerely, Bobby Cox Assistant Commissioner IHSAA IHSAA By Laws page 33 9-6 Member Schools Limited to One Tournament Series Team; Students May Only Represent Their Own School Member schools may maintain any number of teams in the same sport, but only one team may represent a school in an IHSAA tournament series. Students may represent: a. only the school in which they are presently enrolled; b. only one school in any sport during a tournament series; and c. only one team in an IHSAA tournament series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 thecomets, That would be the rule. Not sure or not but it may also have a statement someplace or a part of the Q & A that said something more specific about a school having more than one varsity squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 So, according to the IHSAA bylaws and past practices, couldn't Snyder just list every wildcard as being from Garrett 2, Seymore 2, etc.? The points would simply go against that school's B team only, like they have allowed for many schools the past few years. I don't see how the IHSAA could forbid that based on what they've allowed in the past, whether or not Bobby feels it's "unethical". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 So, according to the IHSAA bylaws and past practices, couldn't Snyder just list every wildcard as being from Garrett 2, Seymore 2, etc.? The points would simply go against that school's B team only, like they have allowed for many schools the past few years. I don't see how the IHSAA could forbid that based on what they've allowed in the past, whether or not Bobby feels it's "unethical". That is the exact scenario I gave Mr. Faulkens on Friday night. The only difference is that schools that have a true JV team and entering varsity meets are doing things ethically whereas listing a true varsity athlete as a JV kid to get them in the meet would be unethical in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I don't see what's "unethical" about it. This just shows how little the IHSAA understands wrestling. The kid is being entered into a varsity tournament and isn't being called JV. Are you telling me that schools that have A and B varsity teams never swap around kids in their lineups from week to week? The spirit of the rule is to protect kids from wrestling too many times during the year. If the alternate sits out another tournament because the coach allows him to compete in a better tournament, what harm is done to the individual? If the IHSAA is going to treat us like an individual sport, then they need to be consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I don't see what's "unethical" about it. This just shows how little the IHSAA understands wrestling. The kid is being entered into a varsity tournament and isn't being called JV. Are you telling me that schools that have A and B varsity teams never swap around kids in their lineups from week to week? If the other 18 scheduled points on your roster are all varsity events then an extra event like Al Smith would have to be considered as part of the JV schedule and those wrestling would be de facto JV wrestlers. I see a clear ethical difference between swapping guys in and out of a varsity/JV lineups who are battling to be the varsity starter and entering Jason Tsirtsis at Mishawaka but having the event as part of your JV schedule. The spirit of the rule is to protect kids from wrestling too many times during the year. If the alternate sits out another tournament because the coach allows him to compete in a better tournament, what harm is done to the individual? If the IHSAA is going to treat us like an individual sport, then they need to be consistent. I agree 100 percent with you and the IHSAA's only real concern is that individuals don't have more than 18 schedule points. Unfortunately the bylaws state that the varsity TEAM can only schedule 18 as well. Therefore a team with an already full varsity schedule who added Al Smith would be in violation. You would have to make either the Al Smith or some other previously varsity event(s) a JV event to be in compliance. If my school, who only have a handful of JV kids, and a very limited JV schedule, were to do this, I would say that is unethical in my opinion because it would be done to circumvent the current IHSAA interpretation of the bylaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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