New weights are in.

[jchas]

We went to GNC and got the big bucket of protein!

I'm just hoping that Disney doesn't move to 106 + the 5 pound allowance.

[charger.dad]

We went to GNC and got the big bucket of protein!

I'm just hoping that Disney doesn't move to 106 + the 5 pound allowance.

 

lol.....eat, eat, eat......actually for tony, i think this is good.....he's hitting a big growth spurt and i wouldn't be surprised if he comes in at the end of summer in the 110 -115 range....gonna try to get back down to 98 for freestyle and greco state though.....

[swain358]

If the returning State Champion Team (Perry) struggles to fill their line up with quality wrestlers that actually weigh 215, 189 now 182,195, 220 then I venture to think that most schools around the state struggle to find kids to fill those spots with kids that weigh 189, 215, now 182, 195, 220. Moving 103 up to 106 is the minor issue in this whole change. The major issue is taking away a middle weight class that is very competitive and a prime weight class in this sport and one of which the majority of teams have no problem filling just to add another upper weight class that is tough to fill with a quality wrestler that has wrestling experience. The odds are most teams will have more experienced kids in the middle weights than in the lower and upper weights. It is common sense. Statistics can tell you one thing but general knowledge of the sport will tell you another. Taking away 135 to add 182 was a bad move in my opinion.

[Smooth34]

We are getting bigger as a society because we are getting fatter. Why support this in wrestling? I know from walking the halls that there are more big kids than ever before. I don't agree with encouraging more overweight kids. Obesity is a national epidemic why cave into this in wrestling?

I also realize that there aren't many kids in 103. I say, so what!  It has always been the most forfeited weight and always will be. I look at it from the standpoint if not for wrestling these kids wouldn't even be able to compete in athletics at all.  Wrestling is the only place for them to excel in athletics. Why take that away?  

 

Lets have kids starve themselves for 3 months instead.  That's much healthier. 

[Jimtown 138]

lol.....eat, eat, eat......actually for tony, i think this is good.....he's hitting a big growth spurt and i wouldn't be surprised if he comes in at the end of summer in the 110 -115 range....gonna try to get back down to 98 for freestyle and greco state though.....

 

Maybe if Tony's dad wasn't such a runt, he'd be bigger...

[1oldwrestler]

Lets have kids starve themselves for 3 months instead.  That's much healthier. 

 

C'mon smooth.  The move to 106 is going to encourage more weight loss to hit that lowest class than ever before.  Kids over 120 wouldn't think about dropping nearly 20 pounds to 103 but 16 pounds is definitely doable.  For the record, I wouldn't let my kid do it.

[1oldwrestler]

If I were an undersized 106 pounder I would do what other undersized athletes usually do, eat and lift to put on mass. 

 

Kind of sounds like the advice you get from folks who don't support class wrestling: "small schools just need to work harder and they'll get better and be able to compete with the big schools."  You don't like that advice when it's handed to you re classing wrestling, why are you handing the same advice out now in this situation?

[Y2CJ41]

C'mon smooth.  The move to 106 is going to encourage more weight loss to hit that lowest class than ever before.  Kids over 120 wouldn't think about dropping nearly 20 pounds to 103 but 16 pounds is definitely doable.  For the record, I wouldn't let my kid do it.

Because no 103lbers started the season at 120, they all started the season at 102.9. 

[Y2CJ41]

Kind of sounds like the advice you get from folks who don't support class wrestling: "small schools just need to work harder and they'll get better and be able to compete with the big schools."  You don't like that advice when it's handed to you re classing wrestling, why are you handing the same advice out now in this situation?

Schools can't magically add students to become a bigger school.

[KarlHungus]

Kind of sounds like the advice you get from folks who don't support class wrestling: "small schools just need to work harder and they'll get better and be able to compete with the big schools."  You don't like that advice when it's handed to you re classing wrestling, why are you handing the same advice out now in this situation?

 

The analogy would be spot on if it were as easy to gain students as it was 3 pounds

[1oldwrestler]

Schools can't magically add students to become a bigger school.

 

The issue they are trying to impart to you isn't magically growing your enrollment, it's that just through hard work you can compete with the big boys too.  That is no different than just suggesting pack on some muscle by lifting weights and eating protein and you can compete with the big boys who are just naturally bigger than you.  I don't know, guess it sounds like an apples to apples deal to me.

[1oldwrestler]

Because no 103lbers started the season at 120, they all started the season at 102.9. 

 

Not saying that at all.  I agree there are plenty of kids sawing a leg off to get down to 103, I just don't know of too many dropping 20 to do it.  But you are making my point with the numbers you referenced above.  Plenty of kids at 120 will lose the 17 pounds to get to 103 but few that were OVER 120 were dropping all the way to 103.  Now those kids walking around over 120 will easily consider 106 as the weight drop is 16 or so pounds.  I love it when we agree.

[Y2CJ41]

Not saying that at all.  I agree there are plenty of kids sawing a leg off to get down to 103, I just don't know of too many dropping 20 to do it.  But you are making my point with the numbers you referenced above.  Plenty of kids at 120 will lose the 17 pounds to get to 103 but few that were OVER 120 were dropping all the way to 103.  Now those kids walking around over 120 will easily consider 106 as the weight drop is 16 or so pounds.  I love it when we agree.

Wrestlers will cut weight no matter what the weight classes are.  I hate to be the one that breaks this news to you.  Whether the lowest weight class is 75lbs or 150lbs, wrestlers will cut weight to get to that weight class or any weight class for that matter.

 

There are now rules in place that have limited the number of kids eligible for the lowest weight class.  To me that is one of the biggest reasons for the dramatic increase in forfeits and the increase in number of freshmen and sophomores in the weight class.  Back in the late 1990's 103 and 112 had quite a few juniors and seniors, but that is not the case these days.

[Y2CJ41]

The issue they are trying to impart to you isn't magically growing your enrollment, it's that just through hard work you can compete with the big boys too.  That is no different than just suggesting pack on some muscle by lifting weights and eating protein and you can compete with the big boys who are just naturally bigger than you.  I don't know, guess it sounds like an apples to apples deal to me.

Lets see in order for this kid to compete he should be lifting weights, well any kid any weight should be doing this, and since he is smaller he probably needs to be eating good.  In order for a small school to be more competitive they need to add more students.  I don't see the corelation here.  One is something an individual and coach can control the other is not.  Kids can and will grow believe it or not, schools on the other hand may or may not grow.

 

Apples to oranges

[1oldwrestler]

Wrestlers will cut weight no matter what the weight classes are.  I hate to be the one that breaks this news to you. 

 

You don't have to break any of this to me.  I'm the one who has posts removed for making fun of the weight management program the IHSAA has imposed and how little to no effect it has on kids cutting temendous amounts of weights.  If there's anybody on this site shining a flashlight on the dirty little secret we all like to ignore, the fact that kids are still cutting way too much weight to get to a class, it's me.  So spare me the lecture.  The point of my post wasn't to listen again to how 103 is the most forfeited class, etc, etc, blah, blah.  I GET IT!  I just think it's curious that you and Mr. Hungus think it's OK to tell an undersized kid, sorry pee wee for your size deficiency.  Just get bigger by lifting and eating protein, then you'll be able to compete with kids NATURALLY bigger than you when you go nuts when someone says that all a small school has to do is work harder and they'll be able to compete with schools of larger ENROLLMENT.  Really, rationalize all you want but, conceptually, there is no diffrence between telling a wrestling team to work harder to compete with bigger schools and telling a little guy to lift weights and eat protein so he can compete with bigger guys.

[maligned]

 

maligned, can you explain to me how going from 9 weight classes (103 to 145) to what is now 8 weight classes (106 to 145) is not taking a weight class away?.....there is now one less weight class in that range....in my opinion, something got taken away.....????...either 135 or 140......

 

If you have a pie that is cut into 8 pieces and you remove all the cut lines and re-cut the pie in 7 pieces, you didn't eliminate one specific cut line as you suggest.  Instead, you make all new cut lines so that the 7 pieces are equal just as the 8 pieces were supposed to be equal.  This is the situation we have.  No one specific weight class was taken away.  All were removed and completely new divisions were made...it just happens that a couple are the same as before.

[charger.dad]

Maybe if Tony's dad wasn't such a runt, he'd be bigger...

 

hey hey now.....just cause i'm a little big in the gut is no reason to make fun of me.....lol.....actually, i was built just like tony at that age.....about 100lbs coming out of 8th grade......but between 8th and 9th gardes i shot up....i was 180 when i graduated high school....and now, somehow, 30 plus years later i'm 230......how does that happen?.....

[charger.dad]

If you have a pie that is cut into 8 pieces and you remove all the cut lines and re-cut the pie in 7 pieces, you didn't eliminate one specific cut line as you suggest.  Instead, you make all new cut lines so that the 7 pieces are equal just as the 8 pieces were supposed to be equal.  This is the situation we have.  No one specific weight class was taken away.  All were removed and completely new divisions were made...it just happens that a couple are the same as before.

 

 

i suppose you can twist it around and to some people make that point sound right, but the bottom line is that there were 9 weight classes thru 145 and now there are 8......that is one less now matter how you cut the pie........and that means one less kid wrestling in that weight range versus last year.....do the math.....9 - 8 = 1 (one less weight class).....and i no my math cuz i wint 2 skool in mishagin.....

[maligned]

 

i suppose you can twist it around and to some people make that point sound right, but the bottom line is that there were 9 weight classes thru 145 and now there are 8......that is one less now matter how you cut the pie........and that means one less kid wrestling in that weight range versus last year.....do the math.....9 - 8 = 1 (one less weight class).....and i no my math cuz i wint 2 skool in mishagin.....

 

No one said there isn't one less weight class.  We're in agreement.  I'm saying that no SPECIFIC weight was taken away any more than any other.  People keep trying to zero in on the weight that was taken away (maybe 135, maybe it was 140).  I'm saying that none of those SPECIFIC weights were taken away.  They were ALL taken away and replaced with a new group of weights that amounts to one less than before below 145 pounds. 

[fwrestler]

Lets see in order for this kid to compete he should be lifting weights, well any kid any weight should be doing this, and since he is smaller he probably needs to be eating good.  In order for a small school to be more competitive they need to add more students.  I don't see the corelation here.  One is something an individual and coach can control the other is not.  Kids can and will grow believe it or not, schools on the other hand may or may not grow.

 

Apples to oranges

 

You're misinterpreting what 1oldwrestler is saying here.  The problem is that you'e equating the term "work harder" with "add more students."  They're not the same thing.  "In order for a small school to be more competitive they need to add more students."  This is not necessarily true.  Look at teams like Mater Dei.  When people arguing against a classed system say that teams need to work harder to compete with the bigger schools, they're not saying those schools should magically increase their enrollment, they're saying that the wrestlers on those teams should put in more work in the offseason by lifting, attending camps and tournaments, etc.  They're saying it's possible for a school with small enrollment to compete with naturally bigger schools through hard work, just like you're saying it's possible for smaller wrestlers to compete with naturally bigger ones by lifting weights and eating right.  Seems like apples to apples to me.

[NLCards]

No one said there isn't one less weight class.  We're in agreement.  I'm saying that no SPECIFIC weight was taken away any more than any other.  People keep trying to zero in on the weight that was taken away (maybe 135, maybe it was 140).  I'm saying that none of those SPECIFIC weights were taken away.  They were ALL taken away and replaced with a new group of weights that amounts to one less than before below 145 pounds. 

 

To argue that this effects the first 8 (now 7) weight classes equally sounds like a huge rationalization. While it might effect each weight class to some degree, I think it's pretty clear that it will effect the old 135 and 140 the most, 130 a little less, 125 and 119 hardly at all (only 1 pd. difference) and maybe 112 and 103 a bit depending on if there will indeed be more weight cutting or not to try and get down to the lowest weight.

[CoachW33]

It seems to me that those who are upset with the new weights will be the teams made weaker by the move, those who are satisfied may be benefiting from the switch, just an observation. There were going to be people unhappy either way, if it stayed the same or changed. I'm for it...it makes my team tougher, for at least the next year. We'll see how my feelings change in 2 years.

[wildcatcountry97]

There are several things to consider here ? not just one.

 

1st ? We should also be considerate of trying to produce the best product and have the best parody between weights. I have been a proponent for a long time of bumping up 103 to 106 b/c you could more quickly acclimate to 103 with less talent. ie: a young freshman will have a better chance at a state medal than the exact same talent level 145lber.

 

2nd ? As indyT pointed out, you cannot hand pick the exceptions to the rule and argue for your point with this as reasoning.

 

3rd ? 3 of our weight classes are within or over 200lbs!  You have to be kidding me! As pointed out by a fan on the board ? now he has 3 weight classes he can skip at Conseco. This is the exact same point as my 103 argument ? a kid with little talent who is a 275 muscle shark can much more easily succeed than a muscle bound 145lber with the exact same talent level.

 

Sure- give everyone their chance and make opportunities for everyone. But, we should have more weight classes in the middle not the top. When 21% of your weightclasses are within 5 or over 200lbs we have a problem. This will also greatly limit competition between the small schools and large schools as small schools wont be able to fill teams at the top and will give up a lot more forfeits .

 

[awood1]

I agree with you aoberlin.

 

I'm also of the opinion that if they weren't using flawed statistical methods, they might have come to a different conclusion.  When they use just wrestler data, they are introducing a bias, which I suspect was not properly accounted for.  In particular, it ignores all those who aren't wrestling because they weigh 90 lbs.

 

Yes, there are more forfeits at 103 than 285, but how many of those 285 pounders are 215 pounders  (or even real 189 pounders) wrestling up to fill the spot?  See that all the time.  Shifting guys up is standard procedure, which is another bias which may not have been adjusted for in the data.

 

So it's OK for an 189lber to wrestle up against a guy with a 96lb weight advantage(285-189), but asking a 98lber to wrestle a kid 8lbs heavier is an injustice?

 

Truth be told, I personally believe that this is a much bigger issue to the parents and coaches.  Of all the 103lbers I have ever known, I have never heard them bitch about the size, strength or age of their opponent.  It is what it is and that is what makes wrestling great.

[bharmon01]

To be honest I haven't read everything on here, but I read something about kids not cutting 20 pounds but they may cut 16 to make 106 versus 103. My first thought was - are they following the weight loss program?

In my day 20 pound loss was the norm, they issued us "plastics" the first day of practice - my senior year I cut from 120 to 98. Changing weight classes will not stop cutting weight.

The question is -"Is this in the best interest of the sport?"

Like someone pointed out you can't move a kid up to wrestle 103, but you can move kids up to wrestle in the upper weights.

How many of the 189, 215 and hwt kids could have wrestled at a lower weight but moved up to fill out the weight classes?

This is where I think the study is flawed. It makes it look like we have more big kids than is really true.

I hate losing the little guy and the kid in the middle - If its that big a deal lets just add another weight at the top and not cut out the little or middle weight kid.

I have had to forfeit the lower weights before and have kids move up to fill out the top. If we are really all about the sport then who cares if we may have to forfeit a weight class and lose a meet? Before you say anything Castle has forfeited 103 and 112 in the past and had underweight kids wrestle at the top.

Give all kids little and big a chance to experience the GREATEST SPORT OF ALL.

The bottom line this is what we have been dealt with for next year so we will have to suck it up and deal with it. Some like it, some don't - the question is "is this good for our sport?" I don't think so, but that is just my opinion. If we don't like it then we need to fight for change just like 1995.

Another question is how is this going to effect uniforms and warm-ups? Do we need to order bigger singlets if we are lucky enough to get these big kids out? Do we need new warm-ups if you put the old weight classes on our warm-ups?