Team State Debate

[tskin]

hahaha SamDad is attacking me now.  I must be a popular guy.  Back at yea SamDad whoever you may be

[KarlHungus]

Karl, you are saying we should focus on changes that is best for the non elite programs since its only the elite programs that are involved and also you are saying focus on changes for the small schools since the team state has no bearing on them.

 

No I said we should focus on potential changes that would effect the largest numbers of kids and programs.

 

What is it about the IHSAA dont you see.  First, you have to keep something before you can change it.  I am really confused as to why people keep saying, why do this or why do that when it only involves the elite programs.

 

I'm not sure how many times I can say it, but it is my understanding that the team state tournament is dead in the water.  Even if it survives (which I hope it does because it does gives top programs a tangible goal) I don't think trying to get 80% of the programs who have never so much as a won a team regional to back this drive is a winning proposition.  Again, keeping the team state in it's present form is preferable to having no team state.  I am not anti-elite program.

 

Who are those programs?  Can someone list them?  Can someone like Jeffersonville be considered elite.  They lost by 10 or less points to EMD and Castle the last couple of years.  They are busting their tale to beat those teams.  I am sure Danny is selling team, team, team.  Otherwise he would not have 18 juniors and 23 seniors.  Thats 41 kids who probably dont wrestle if he does not have them sold on beating EMD and the new powerhouse, Castle, who could not get a sniff a few years back when small school EMD dominated the state.  I will say it again, Perry had 3 kids in its club at our first club practice and 12 on the high school team at the end of our first year.  We put a plan together, we recruited like crazy(but not as good as struck does).  How can we have more kids out than some schools that have twice as many students as us?  How is that possible?  By numbers alone we should not be able to do that.  Just like EMD or Belmont or Yorktown or Roncalli should not be able to compete with the 5a schools with 4000 kids but they do.  And, I dont want to here the recruiting stuff.  Roncalli is in my district.  We share kids and they dont recruit.  But, they do compete.

 

Half of the wrestling schools are smaller than any you have mentioned.  Many small schools are doing the same things you have done, but the difference is they have 5 on the team at the end of the first year,  can possibly fill a complete line up at the end of the year 4, trying to get kids more mat time but coaches and athletes are playing or coaching baseball and running track.  Many small schools have the same high expectations they do at elite schools, but the reality is that numbers matter.

 

So, we should not focus on keeping team state, rather focus on doing something that will benifit the nonelite and also the small schools so that they can do something that they, for the most part, have never done before and win the coaches trophy or if so deemed by the IHSAA, the individual team state championship.  I just do not understand that mentality and never will.  Again, I appreciate listening to both sides of something and I am very open to anytthing that helps this sport I love but I am very blinded to something that seems to hurt our sport more than it helps an dif you truly believe team state is hurting our sport please convince me.  I am all ears(as is Wes Wesly:)-red alert.

 

Smaller schools have never done it before because there has never been a classed team state tournament.  It sounds like you are saying a small school state championship would be meaningless to a school like Whitko, Delphi, Hanover Central, Jimtown, etc, etc.  I guess I don't understand that mentality and never will.

[tskin]

I can see the benifits of classing the team portion of state.  Two classes like soccer is moving to might be a start then a possible three class system.  I think any more than that would be over kill.

 

For a two class system I could see a cutoff somewhere in the mid to upper 700's

 

For a three class cutoffs something like  A-500's AA-1200's AAA-everyone else. 

 

Not sure of exact enrollments and if this would even leave even amount of teams for a bracketed tourney but it is a ballpark.

[indyt]

Not at all saying anything negative against a small school state championship.  I am in favor of class.  Must keep it first.  Its not dead and its very far from meaningless as you put it.  Lets rally behind whats important and you can not move on all of those aspects if you dont have the dang thing. 

[KarlHungus]

Not at all saying anything negative against a small school state championship.  I am in favor of class.  Must keep it first.  Its not dead and its very far from meaningless as you put it.  Lets rally behind whats important and you can not move on all of those aspects if you dont have the dang thing. 

 

Where did I say that team state was meaningless?  It obviously has great meaning to a few programs.  Like I said before, trying to get 80% of the schools that historically have little chance of ever making, let alone winning a team state title does not sound like a battle I want fight.

[Darrick Snyder]

Y2, Karl, and Others,

 

I understand that the current team state system has little affect on most programs, but here are a few points:

 

 

1.) Just because it doesn't affect your kids doesn't mean it doesn't affect lots of others....or that it isn't the best for wrestling...  No one is going to stop wrestling because there is a Team State, but wrestlers will stop wrestling if there is not a team state.

 

2.) We all seem to be in agreement that a CLASSED TEAM STATE would be best for schools so lets start there.  I think you would be shocked at how much focusing on the team can improve your numbers and level of excitement for programs.  Mishawaka has always had a strong program, but once we focused on the team our numbers have gone through the roof.  My first year we had 32 kids on our team.  I have 76 now!  The TEAM has grown our program.

 

3.) If we went to lets say 3 classes, it wouldn't be the same twenty teams competing for the title...and I do not believe it would just be 60 teams...smaller schools would then have a chance to succeed as a team.  I am confident thier numbers would increase and most schools would be competing and caring about the team aspect.  Y2 are you telling me that you can't get a team together at Garrett that could compete for a trip to team state if it was classed?  I know you and I know how much you love wrestling and how much time you put in...Imagine being able to take your ENTIRE team to a state tournament.  YOUR entire team is state qualifiers or placers or champs...they all get to make the trip, they all get the patches, the medals, the rings.  It is truly indescrible...and would do wonders for any program...and with team state classed teams COULD do it. 

 

Y2 you would still have your indivdual studs competing for a trip to the indivdual state finals.  That wouldn't change, but now they would not just be working for themselves, but also for the success of the team.  I can't not explain in words how much more you can get out of them when they are working for their teammates too.  We don't even talk about indivduals state here, but we have won it the last 4 out of 5 years.  Why?  Because the guys are training for themesleves and thier team.  It has lead to us having even more indivdual studs. 

 

Lets fight for what is best for our sport!  CLASSED team state is what is best...so lets get it...don't give up...don't admit to defeat.  Other states have it...It CAN happen...Talk to MIchigan coaches about a classed team state and waht it has done for thier programs.

 

Thanks

Darrick Sndyer

[KarlHungus]

Y2, Karl, and Others,

 

I understand that the current team state system has little affect on most programs, but here are a few points:

 

 

1.) Just because it doesn't affect your kids doesn't mean it doesn't affect lots of others....or that it isn't the best for wrestling...  No one is going to stop wrestling because there is a Team State, but wrestlers will stop wrestling if there is not a team state.

 

No one said it doesn't affect the schools that realistically can compete for a team title.  I feel supporting a measure that would positively effect all programs is a better use of time and energy.

 

 

2.) We all seem to be in agreement that a CLASSED TEAM STATE would be best for schools so lets start there.  I think you would be shocked at how much focusing on the team can improve your numbers and level of excitement for programs.  Mishawaka has always had a strong program, but once we focused on the team our numbers have gone through the roof.  My first year we had 32 kids on our team.  I have 76 now!  The TEAM has grown our program.

 

When the IHSWCA proposes a 3 class team state tournament series to the IHSAA, I will support it 100%.  (I am not holding my breath)  I will still contend, however, that an individual class tournament is what is best for the vast majority of wrestlers and programs.  I seem to recall the last time the coach's association dealt with a class issue, the proposal was shot down by association leadership despite overwhelming support from the rank and file coaches.

 

Contrary to popular opinion, small schools do focus on the TEAM aspects of the sport.  However, winning the Afton Quad or the Winamac Super Six doesn't have the same cache as Regional, Semi-State or State Champion.

 

My school has a realistic shot at a sectional title this year....would be quite an accomplishment for as school of 290 kids.  Our reward...missing a practice before regionals and maybe winning 1 or 2 matches.  We would be proud as hell but thats the reality of things. 

 

3.) If we went to lets say 3 classes, it wouldn't be the same twenty teams competing for the title...and I do not believe it would just be 60 teams...smaller schools would then have a chance to succeed as a team.  I am confident thier numbers would increase and most schools would be competing and caring about the team aspect.  Y2 are you telling me that you can't get a team together at Garrett that could compete for a trip to team state if it was classed?  I know you and I know how much you love wrestling and how much time you put in...Imagine being able to take your ENTIRE team to a state tournament.  YOUR entire team is state qualifiers or placers or champs...they all get to make the trip, they all get the patches, the medals, the rings.  It is truly indescrible...and would do wonders for any program...and with team state classed teams COULD do it.

 

20 teams realistically can compete to make a run for team state right now.

 

3 classes x 20 = 60 schools realistically competing.  Would it be more than 60.  Possibly, but how many more?  More than would be positively affected by a classed individual state.  I doubt it.  I would love to see classes at both the individual and team level because then the highest amount of kids and programs are positively impacted.   

 

Lets fight for what is best for our sport!  CLASSED team state is what is best...so lets get it...don't give up...don't admit to defeat.  Other states have it...It CAN happen...Talk to MIchigan coaches about a classed team state and waht it has done for thier programs.

 

I agree....where is the petition to sign....where is the proposal....when is this going to be proposed to the IHSAA? 

[Y2CJ41]

Not everyone is for this, see Nickster's comments above.  He believes that classing is a bad thing.

[1oldwrestler]

IMO, if the team series was done away with I wouldn't shed any tears.  My kids wrestle at a H.S. that won one Sectional title in the four years my oldest went there and I really don't think it will change much for my youngest when he goes thru.  Big school, a few pretty competitive kids throughout the lineup, no state champs on the horizon.  I say all this to let you know that I'm biased.  If my kids attended a wrestling factory I'd probably have a different opinion.  However, this being said, I really don't think the team series does much to grow the popularity of the sport.  Classing the individual series has plenty of validity as far as growing interest in the sport.  However, what I'm trying to figure out is, which group of coaches is against classing altogether?  If its the big school coaches, why?  I read earlier that he only way classing will take place is if the Coaches Assoc pushes it.  If this is true, what do coaches overall think of classing anything about h.s. wrestling here in IN?  It's obvious the small school guys want it classed but why are the big boys (if indeed, they are) digging their heels in?  What's their rationale for wanting to keep the state state single classed, be it individual or team?  It seems like the big boys are moving on wanting to class the team portion now that they are scared of losing team series altogether.  Kind of like, lets all band together for the common good of the sport but were only going to go so far.  Or is it that most of the coaches, big or small, really don't give a rip about classing one way or the other so the problem is motivating the masses to take action.  If I had to guess, I'd say it's the latter.

[Y2CJ41]

Here are some of the reasons for no class wrestling that I have heard over the years

1. Mater Dei would win all the championships

2. We wouldn't know who the best is

3. It would water our tournament down

4. Remember Milan

5. It ruined basketball

6. We wouldn't have the spotlight on the finals

7. Just work harder, that is all it takes

8. School size doesn't matter if you work hard

9. History and tradition

10.The kids don't want it

[1oldwrestler]

Here are some of the reasons for no class wrestling that I have heard over the years

1. Mater Dei would win all the championships

2. We wouldn't know who the best is

3. It would water our tournament down

4. Remember Milan

5. It ruined basketball

6. We wouldn't have the spotlight on the finals

7. Just work harder, that is all it takes

8. School size doesn't matter if you work hard

9. History and tradition

10.The kids don't want it

 

I've read all this stuff before Joe but this mostly sounds like fans of the sport talking, not coaches who know what's going on.  I guess I want to know if it's true that classing things will take place if the Coaches Assoc pushes for it.  If this is true, then what are the real reasons behind the coaches not wanting to class things.  Is it apathy or  money?

[ENoblewrestling]

Y2 and Karl you keep stating that you want a system that will effect the most kids. Using that idea then a classed team state would effect more kids in a way then the classed indivdual.

Let's look at these two scenarios.

1. Classed team three classes, 60 teams with a legit shot.

2. Three indivdual classes, 16 qualifiers, 14 weights.

 

1.  60 X 14 is 840 wrestlers effected

2. 3 X 14 X 16 is 672 wreestlers effected

 

This doesn't even take into acount that the individual side would only effect the studs, the team side would be all wrestlers good, bad, or otherwise.  All kids on that team would be champions, and qualifiers, varsity, jv everyone.

[1oldwrestler]

1. Classed team three classes, 60 teams with a legit shot.

 

So you are saying that 20 teams in each class would have a "legit" shot at winning a title.  Pretty sure that's overstating the number by a wide margin.  I'll give you 10 teams per class with a legit chance of winning a team title but I think that too is a way high number.

[ENoblewrestling]

That is the number that I have alsways seen thrown out there.  I mean if you finish top two at sectionals than you have a shot. That's the number Y2 and Karl put out there.  I would say 20 eassily have a shot at making every year, maybe not winning it, but making it which is a great accomplihment.

[KarlHungus]

Y2 and Karl you keep stating that you want a system that will effect the most kids. Using that idea then a classed team state would effect more kids in a way then the classed indivdual.

Let's look at these two scenarios.

1. Classed team three classes, 60 teams with a legit shot.

2. Three indivdual classes, 16 qualifiers, 14 weights

 

1.  60 X 14 is 840 wrestlers effected

2. 3 X 14 X 16 is 672 wreestlers effected

 

This doesn't even take into acount that the individual side would only effect the studs, the team side would be all wrestlers good, bad, or otherwise.  All kids on that team would be champions, and qualifiers, varsity, jv everyone.

 

And people accuse y2 of manipulating statistics.

 

20 teams wont qualify for state in each class. I said that 20 teams per class might have a shot at qualifying for a team state.  At max there would be 8 teams that qualify.  That means only 336 kids would be effected.

 

Classing the individual would would allow struggling programs the opportunity to build around their one or two studs who reach the ultimate goal, the state finals.  Yes, it would be "watered down", but in 5 years the kids won't know the difference and struggling programs can legitimately see the light at the end of the tunnel.  Wrestling wins!

 

I am not arguing against a classed team state, it would be wonderful addition to a classed individual state finals.

[ENoblewrestling]

And people accuse y2 of manipulating statistics.

 

20 teams wont qualify for state in each class. I said that 20 teams per class might have a shot at qualifying for a team state.  At max there would be 8 teams that qualify.  That means only 336 kids would be effected.

 

Classing the individual would would allow struggling programs the opportunity to build around their one or two studs who reach the ultimate goal, the state finals.  Yes, it would be "watered down", but in 5 years the kids won't know the difference and struggling programs can legitimately see the light at the end of the tunnel.  Wrestling wins!

 

 

I am not arguing against a classed team state, it would be wonderful addition to a classed individual state finals.

 

Haha ok that was a bit of manipulation, at least ill admit to it.  The point is that a lot of wrestlers would be affected by a classed team competion to, and not just studs, all kids.  I really think that the chance at competing on the team level would effect a lot more teams than you think. 

[KarlHungus]

However, what I'm trying to figure out is, which group of coaches is against classing altogether?

 

I don't think there is a defined set of coaches that are anti-classing.

 

  If its the big school coaches, why?  I read earlier that he only way classing will take place is if the Coaches Assoc pushes it.  If this is true, what do coaches overall think of classing anything about h.s. wrestling here in IN?

 

Some years ago, it is my understanding that there was a survey of some kind done by the coach's association in which classing had overwhelming support of the rank and file coaches.  Instead of drafting a proposal the association tabled it and opted to propose wrestlebacks i believe.

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

Haha ok that was a bit of manipulation, at least ill admit to it.  The point is that a lot of wrestlers would be affected by a classed team competion to, and not just studs, all kids.  I really think that the chance at competing on the team level would effect a lot more teams than you think. 

Just like now where it affects... well the top 15 teams maybe.

[1oldwrestler]

I don't think there is a defined set of coaches that are anti-classing.

 

 

Some years ago, it is my understanding that there was a survey of some kind done by the coach's association in which classing had overwhelming support of the rank and file coaches.  Instead of drafting a proposal the association tabled it and opted to propose wrestlebacks i believe.

 

 

 

So the issue, it seems to me, is getting the Coaches Assoc to push for classing.  Instead of belaboring the point on here with no end in sight, what has to be done to get the Coaches Assoc on board?  Or is it just too fun to complain, argue, name call, whine, get mad, spend hours researching and compiling data, etc., etc.?

[indyt]

Again, its getting old for a few of you to just make up things and say now that we are in jeopardy of losing team state the big schools are all for class.  If someone who is wiser than I can go back to over last year you can see that I was all for it then as well.  I admitted that originally we did not want class only because we wanted to be the team to beat EMD.  Someone else a lot tougher than us got it done.  I have always said a class team state would be awesome for the state, communities and wrestling (as well as a big pocket book for the IHSAA).

 

Here are a few other philosophies I will debate.  I keep hearing this one-why should we take a day away from practice to wrestle in a tournament we are going to lose(team regionals).  I must be a really dumb coach.  Our kids love to compete much more than they love practice.  We welcome the mid week break.  Practice at that time of year is much shorter and to be honest, I can not, nor can our kids stand, 5 straight days of practice at that time of the year.  Compete, win or lose, its more fun!!  In fact, as Zeke Jones said in our room one day, all Olympic athletes after being polled agreed that it was not winning the drove them but rather the love of competition.

 

And this one-" it wears our kids out"-man sakes alive-are you serious.  Minnesota does both tournaments in conjunction with each other.  Tyler Bowling wrestled for us his soph and jr year.  He went back to Apple Valley his senior year and on back to back days he was wrestling in the team and individual tournament.  He was a state runner up and his team won state on successive days.  He and many of his teammates like Destin McCauley(spelling)did the same.  Since when did kids of this age become so brittle or are we just not as tough as Minn. kids. I can tell you this and so will Tyler Bowling.  Our room was the toughest room he had been in, not the most talented but the toughest. 

 

So here we are.  Is it be selfish and not fight for something that is good for the sport so that we can have what we want but will never get if we lose this.  We need to keep team state.  We will not be able to class anything right away if you know anything about the IHSAA.  It will only happen is steps.  We have to prove we are together on something or else we will not move forward.  Put whats best for kids, whats best for wrestling and yes, if it has to be, whats best for the 20 team BS I keep hearing.  The number is so much more than 20 but it sounds as if many are conceding their chances and packing it in.  Those of you that are not in the infamous 20(I still want to know who those teams are by the way), was your big speech all last year that we can win the coaches trophy and be state champs.  Do you really like the idea that 4 kids on a team can win a team championship.  Really??

[KarlHungus]

So the issue, it seems to me, is getting the Coaches Assoc to push for classing.  Instead of belaboring the point on here with no end in sight, what has to be done to get the Coaches Assoc on board?  Or is it just too fun to complain, argue, name call, whine, get mad, spend hours researching and compiling data, etc., etc.?

 

The coaches association is the only means to propose changes outside of the IHSAA.  The question is whether the association is presently organized enough to have any juice with the IHSAA.  I do think communication has improved with the rank and file coaches in the past year with Coach Hoover's posts on the website.  Until then I guess we will continue to complain, argue, name call, whine, get mad and spend hours researching and compiling data.

[indyt]

Karl, you are correct.  There needs to be organization.  At the coaches meeting a committee was supposed to be set up.  At the coaches meeting everyone had a voice and nobody gave any negative feedback at the end when Coach Snyder gave his pep rally.  But, now, they must have changed their minds. He asked for a vote and got 100 percent.  Where is the committee?  Where is the unity?  You are right.  We must be together.

[KarlHungus]

Again, its getting old for a few of you to just make up things and say now that we are in jeopardy of losing team state the big schools are all for class.  If someone who is wiser than I can go back to over last year you can see that I was all for it then as well.  I admitted that originally we did not want class only because we wanted to be the team to beat EMD.  Someone else a lot tougher than us got it done.  I have always said a class team state would be awesome for the state, communities and wrestling (as well as a big pocket book for the IHSAA).

 

Perception is often times reality.  When two coaches of prominent programs with hopes to win a team state title this year start a push for a classed team state tournament it appears they are doing this out of self interest.  I don't think that perception is just made up out of thin air.  Frankly, I don't have a problem with it.  Mishawaka and Perry Meridian deserve to have a team state tournament.  I am not anti team class, I just want classed individual as well.

 

Here are a few other philosophies I will debate.  I keep hearing this one-why should we take a day away from practice to wrestle in a tournament we are going to lose(team regionals).  I must be a really dumb coach.  Our kids love to compete much more than they love practice.  We welcome the mid week break.  Practice at that time of year is much shorter and to be honest, I can not, nor can our kids stand, 5 straight days of practice at that time of the year.  Compete, win or lose, its more fun!!  In fact, as Zeke Jones said in our room one day, all Olympic athletes after being polled agreed that it was not winning the drove them but rather the love of competition.

 

I think my point was taken out of context here.  Of course we would compete, win or lose, and it is a lot more fun then practice.  Are the dumb coaches the ones that wrestle their JV at team regional or hold out their studs who might be a little banged up because they know they have 0 chance of advancing to team semi-state.

 

And this one-" it wears our kids out"-man sakes alive-are you serious.  Minnesota does both tournaments in conjunction with each other.  Tyler Bowling wrestled for us his soph and jr year.  He went back to Apple Valley his senior year and on back to back days he was wrestling in the team and individual tournament.  He was a state runner up and his team won state on successive days.  He and many of his teammates like Destin McCauley(spelling)did the same.  Since when did kids of this age become so brittle or are we just not as tough as Minn. kids. I can tell you this and so will Tyler Bowling.  Our room was the toughest room he had been in, not the most talented but the toughest.

 

who said this?  I didn't see it in this thread.

 

So here we are.  Is it be selfish and not fight for something that is good for the sport so that we can have what we want but will never get if we lose this.

 

Do WE (all coaches) want a classed team tournament?  I think so but I am not sure.  Does the coach's association know what the coaches want?

Losing team state in the short term does not automatically mean there will never be changes in the future.

 

I fear that saving a one class team state returns us to status quo and everyone will go about business as usual except for a few loud messageboard posters.

 

We need to keep team state.  We will not be able to class anything right away if you know anything about the IHSAA.  It will only happen is steps.  We have to prove we are together on something or else we will not move forward. 

 

Why should a small school coach think that change will be coming if we just keep the status quo?  Maybe a short term set back like losing team state is just what the association needs to really become organized and push for real changes?

 

Put whats best for kids, whats best for wrestling and yes, if it has to be, whats best for the 20 team BS I keep hearing.  The number is so much more than 20 but it sounds as if many are conceding their chances and packing it in.

 

I don't see it as BS at all.  There are probably about 20 programs that have the combination of coaching, support, geography, feeder system, etc. to compete for a state title in any given year.  You add talent to that list and you are down to about 10. Here they are: Crown Point, Perry Meridian, Penn, Mishawaka, Bellmont, Mater Dei, Yorktown, Cathedral, Bloomington South, and Castle.  If one of those 10 teams doesn't win the team state title this year I will buy you the beverage of your choice. 

 

What makes you say coaches are packing it in?  They just have different goals for their team.

 

Those of you that are not in the infamous 20(I still want to know who those teams are by the way), was your big speech all last year that we can win the coaches trophy and be state champs.  Do you really like the idea that 4 kids on a team can win a team championship.  Really??

 

No...the speech was "Out of 10 varsity wrestlers, we qualified 7 to regional, 3 to semi-state, and one to state.  We have 10 returners to the line up and lost sectionals by 40 points.  Let's work our butts off so we can win sectionals next year." 

 

I don't like the idea of 4 guys winning a team championship but I am willing to live with it, if it produces changes that will positively effect wrestling at all schools.

[KarlHungus]

Karl, you are correct.  There needs to be organization.  At the coaches meeting a committee was supposed to be set up.  At the coaches meeting everyone had a voice and nobody gave any negative feedback at the end when Coach Snyder gave his pep rally.  But, now, they must have changed their minds. He asked for a vote and got 100 percent.  Where is the committee?  Where is the unity?  You are right.  We must be together.

 

Status quo

[ENoblewrestling]

After the coaches association meetings I sent coach snyder some ideas I had about showing unity with our association on this topic.  I "signed up" to be on the comitee to save team state.  I think we are waiting on word back about when we can meet and things like that.  

either way here are some of the ideas that I proposed to Derrick.  

 

This summer I got married.  My wife and I sent out a couple of hundred invites with pre- stamped returns.  we recieved a couple of hundred responces back in fairly short order. So with that in mind-

 

1.  Send out a letter to each wrestling coach in the state explaining the importance of first keeping team state, then classing it.  With the letter we put a prestamped "postcard" that they sign, and check off that they want to keep team state, and then check again if they are for the eventual classing of team state.  If we dont recieve a responce we call the coach until we get one.  In a few weeks I really think we could get 90% of the coaches to respond to this.

 

2.  We send out a letter to every principal and A.D. in the state explaining what we want.  If we can get the coaches letters back we could show that we have a 90%  backing for keeping team state.  They are representing us, if this is what we can all agree upon as being best for the sport I think they would be more inclined to back us.