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Seeding Meeting Change???

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9 minutes ago, jets said:

Of course I understand the difference between the IHSAA and the Coaches Association. In BOTH instances when I have reached out to Mr Faulkens to question first- the sectional relaignments, and second- the current FF issue being discussed, I was told it was in collaboration with or a direct request of the IHSWCA.

The reference to an Oligarchy is, if the Coaches Association is TRULY suppose to be a representative of the Coaches amongst the State...why wasn't there more information shared with the Coaches when these decisions were being made?? An email survey perhaps? Instead, it's just a few deciding the fate of many- and to me, that seems unjust 

It was put on this board in the meeting minutes, and brought up at the spring clinic meeting under Coaches Summit.  I agree that more could be done in terms of communication. In my role as secretary I will work to see if we can't better communicate these issues in the future. I can tell you that the group that met for sectional realignment was told to not discuss the realignment meeting, and that is why you didn't hear more on that.

 

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9 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Who made the suggestion that forfeits don't count any more?

If the IHSAA did, then did the IHSWCA representatives agree or did they ask the members what they thought?

I can't recall who brought the suggestion up. I didn't take meeting minutes because it wasn't an IHSWCA meeting.  I can tell you that there was a fruitful discussion that took place on the topic, and that I assume a majority agreed, or didn't voice an opinion on the topic.

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21 minutes ago, buscowrestling said:

I can't recall who brought the suggestion up. I didn't take meeting minutes because it wasn't an IHSWCA meeting.  I can tell you that there was a fruitful discussion that took place on the topic, and that I assume a majority agreed, or didn't voice an opinion on the topic.

Backdoor politics as usual, survey the members before making changes...at least that is what I am always told. Then we see crap like this. 

Since you weighed in a kid at the weight, we'll count that as a real win. Penn also told me to count their forfeit as a real win also. Hopefully I can get all of our worthless wins verified so my kids aren't punished for things out of their control. 

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Here's my 2 cents which I know ain't worth much. There is no perfect seeding system as it relates to forfeits unless every team in the state has every weight filled with a wrestler at every match.  Obviously not going to happen. I personally don't think a forfeit win should count for seeding but either way it doesn't matter a lot in the big picture. A few kids in the state may get "screwed" because they weren't seeded 4th in the sectional and lost in the pigtail round.  Probably the only way we were going to see those kids at the Bank on Friday night is if they bought a ticket to sit in the stands.  So a few tears and a life lesson that life isn't always fair never hurt any of us.  The bigger crime is the guy that loses in the ticket round who would be a state placer but drew the eventual state champ and didn't get the opportunity to wrestle back. But I guess it's just another example of a few tears and a life lesson that life isn't always fair.

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35 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Backdoor politics as usual, survey the members before making changes...at least that is what I am always told. Then we see crap like this. 

Since you weighed in a kid at the weight, we'll count that as a real win. Penn also told me to count their forfeit as a real win also. Hopefully I can get all of our worthless wins verified so my kids aren't punished for things out of their control. 

Back door politics... these are our regional reps that are here to help us make decisions; and it was a unanimous one. Not all decisions are easy or uncontroversial, but everyone in the room thought it was in best interest.

We had to make a decision on the spot, and no doubt we stand behind that. Please don’t question my ethics.

 

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9 minutes ago, WOC said:

Here's my 2 cents which I know ain't worth much. There is no perfect seeding system as it relates to forfeits unless every team in the state has every weight filled with a wrestler at every match.  Obviously not going to happen. I personally don't think a forfeit win should count for seeding but either way it doesn't matter a lot in the big picture. A few kids in the state may get "screwed" because they weren't seeded 4th in the sectional and lost in the pigtail round.  Probably the only way we were going to see those kids at the Bank on Friday night is if they bought a ticket to sit in the stands.  So a few tears and a life lesson that life isn't always fair never hurt any of us.  The bigger crime is the guy that loses in the ticket round who would be a state placer but drew the eventual state champ and didn't get the opportunity to wrestle back. But I guess it's just another example of a few tears and a life lesson that life isn't always fair.

So you only care about state qualifiers, sounds great. Keep up only caring about the top 3% of the wrestlers in the state.

Kids getting a raw deal because the powers that be think it would be fun to screw with them tells me enough. Even better is when one of the powers in control uses this new rule to possibliy his advantage against a sectional opponent.

 

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2 minutes ago, ehscoach said:

Back door politics... these are our regional reps that are here to help us make decisions; and it was a unanimous one. Not all decisions are easy or uncontroversial, but everyone in the room thought it was in best interest.

We had to make a decision on the spot, and no doubt we stand behind that. Please don’t question my ethics.

 

Making a change without doing due diligence in research is an extremely poor decision. 

You might as well drive another nail in the coffin of teams that don't fill a full squad. 

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2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So you only care about state qualifiers, sounds great. Keep up only caring about the top 3% of the wrestlers in the state.

Kids getting a raw deal because the powers that be think it would be fun to screw with them tells me enough. Even better is when one of the powers in control uses this new rule to possibliy his advantage against a sectional opponent.

 

Not what I'm saying. I would love for the seeding to be perfect every time at every sectional and no kid to ever get "screwed". However, there is no perfect system for seeding especially as it relates to forfeits. So either way, counting the wins or not counting the wins there will be a few kids that lose in the pigtail rounds that maybe should have been seeded 4th. Again, just a life lesson.  So I guess if you have a perfect system, let's hear about it instead of bitching about the system in place.

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Just now, WOC said:

Not what I'm saying. I would love for the seeding to be perfect every time at every sectional and no kid to ever get "screwed". However, there is no perfect system for seeding especially as it relates to forfeits. So either way, counting the wins or not counting the wins there will be a few kids that lose in the pigtail rounds that maybe should have been seeded 4th. Again, just a life lesson.  So I guess if you have a perfect system, let's hear about it instead of bitching about the system in place.

Instead of worrying about forfeits maybe our great powers could fix the bracketing and make sure the pig tail matches get assigned to unseeded wrestlers first then the lowest seeds as needed. 

Nope instead we'll change the whole system and do it late enough that no one can properly prepare for it. Personally, I would have forfeited to the 145lber from Churubusco when we were wrestling our 4th string guy against him if I knew this fantastic new rule. Why give a kid a free win any more? 

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9 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Instead of worrying about forfeits maybe our great powers could fix the bracketing and make sure the pig tail matches get assigned to unseeded wrestlers first then the lowest seeds as needed. 

Nope instead we'll change the whole system and do it late enough that no one can properly prepare for it. Personally, I would have forfeited to the 145lber from Churubusco when we were wrestling our 4th string guy against him if I knew this fantastic new rule. Why give a kid a free win any more? 

We could seed all 9 or 10 wrestles and make those last 2 or 4 seeds wrestle the pigtail matches.  Also, any teams that enter a forfeit at a weight should automatically be placed in the pigtail brackets first.  These could help eliminate a few of the problems. Of course, seeding meetings would last even that much longer than they already last.

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18 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So you only care about state qualifiers, sounds great. Keep up only caring about the top 3% of the wrestlers in the state.

Kids getting a raw deal because the powers that be think it would be fun to screw with them tells me enough. Even better is when one of the powers in control uses this new rule to possibliy his advantage against a sectional opponent.

 

This is up there with the craziest things i've seen on this site. My varsity was sick. My back-up was ineligible at the time of the match.  Your varsity 120 and 152 didn't wrestle that day, no one is making insane accusations that you were ducking kids.  Don't be ridiculous, there is not reason why I wouldn't have my 85 pound kid wrestle yours and let him wrestle against Northrop.  Quit trying to make up something that doesn't exist. 

3 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Instead of worrying about forfeits maybe our great powers could fix the bracketing and make sure the pig tail matches get assigned to unseeded wrestlers first then the lowest seeds as needed. 

Nope instead we'll change the whole system and do it late enough that no one can properly prepare for it. Personally, I would have forfeited to the 145lber from Churubusco when we were wrestling our 4th string guy against him if I knew this fantastic new rule. Why give a kid a free win any more? 

Great idea.

BTW we are either in a dual or a tournament with every sectional school except for two- Bishop Dwenger (who we used to dual, but had a scheduling change) and Huntington North (who just joined this year).  I have no clue but out of curiosity how many do you see?  We are not running from anyone, or trying to cheat any system. We make every effort to see every sectional team. Your accusations on this are complete and total nonsense. 

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Just now, WOC said:

We could seed all 9 or 10 wrestles and make those last 2 or 4 seeds wrestle the pigtail matches.  Also, any teams that enter a forfeit at a weight should automatically be placed in the pigtail brackets first.  These could help eliminate a few of the problems. Of course, seeding meetings would last even that much longer than they already last.

Forfeits are already placed last, so they are in the pig tails.

We NEED to place the unseeded wrestlers in the spots against unseeded wrestlers in the pig tails instead of randomly drawing those matches. This should be a simple fix and some sectionals actually do this already, but we have been told that it is not correct and this type of change needs to be done by our association.

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1 minute ago, buscowrestling said:

This is up there with the craziest things i've seen on this site. My varsity was sick. My back-up was ineligible at the time of the match.  Your varsity 120 and 152 didn't wrestle that day, no one is making insane accusations that you were ducking kids.  Don't be ridiculous, there is not reason why I wouldn't have my 85 pound kid wrestle yours and let him wrestle against Northrop.  Quit trying to make up something that doesn't exist. 

Great idea.

BTW we are either in a dual or a tournament with every sectional school except for two- Bishop Dwenger (who we used to dual, but had a scheduling change) and Huntington North (who just joined this year).  I have no clue but out of curiosity how many do you see?  We are not running from anyone, or trying to cheat any system. We make every effort to see every sectional team. Your accusations on this are complete and total nonsense. 

We put in backups and didn't forfeit, so your wins were VALID. Our win at 106lbs was not a valid win. There is a difference, we put wrestlers on the mat so your kid wasn't give a worthless win aka forfeit. Since you are saying there is a "valid" reason for your forfeit and you didn't dodge my kid then we can count that forfeit he received as a REAL win right?

We wrestle six of the nine teams in the sectional, thank you very much.

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Who's Churubusco???  Been a small town Indiana hoosier all my life until I moved to the burg and have never associated that word with wrestling.  How can they have such influence on our wrestling community...  sad.....

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9 hours ago, ehscoach said:

Back door politics... these are our regional reps that are here to help us make decisions; and it was a unanimous one. Not all decisions are easy or uncontroversial, but everyone in the room thought it was in best interest.

We had to make a decision on the spot, and no doubt we stand behind that. Please don’t question my ethics.

 

after all this controversy, do you still think this was the best decision ?

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21 hours ago, Clan Campbell said:

Who's Churubusco???  Been a small town Indiana hoosier all my life until I moved to the burg and have never associated that word with wrestling.  How can they have such influence on our wrestling community...  sad.....

To answer your questions about any influence that may have in the wrestling community all I can tell you is that I joined the association.  I volunteered to help with some committees that they had, volunteered as a regional rep. I ran for the position of secratary twice unopposed. Literally any influence that I have is available to anyone willing to put in some time to help with the IHSWCA.

In terms of our wrestling program (which I am not sure has anything at all to do with my ability to volunteer for the coaches association) we are a small community about 10 minutes from Northwest Fort Wayne.  We are not Prairie Heights or Adams Central, but I have to admit that I am a little surprised that a small school wrestling aficionado like yourself didn't know we finished 2nd, 1st, and 5th at the first three team states.  Thats not to say that we are the greatest team in the state, but we have done some good things for a small team, and are generally fairly competitive for a school our size. 

Are you advocating that only big schools have a say in the IHSWCA?  Is there some sort of success factor you feel should be in place for IHSWCA volunteers?

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22 hours ago, Clan Campbell said:

Who's Churubusco???  Been a small town Indiana hoosier all my life until I moved to the burg and have never associated that word with wrestling.  How can they have such influence on our wrestling community...  sad.....

Busco has always produced good quality wrestlers and kids for their size. Just because your mud hole isn’t near ours it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or have a history.

Also Sam is one member of a group that made this decision. Maybe the decision wasn’t vetted well enough but that group does have good intentions and at least they are putting effort forth.

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I have to say this has made buscowrestling come out smelling like roses.  I don't know why we always want to assume the worst of someone and the big school guy has to act like Busco's not worthy to make a decision because clearly the big schools should decide everything.  All the guy did was volunteer, donate his time, and try to help.  Then he is accused of shenanigans and demeaned.  I would really hope coaches have more ethics than they are given credit for and there is a good reason why some stuff happens even if it appears bad to those without information on the scenario.  I don't know anyone in this drama, but would say thanks to the guy who volunteered.  I am sure none of them intended to screw kids over.  Hopefully they do listen and make improvements and everyone learns from mistakes made.  As a whole (with few exceptions), everyone in the sport ( I will make an exception for the IHSAA who I do believe doesn't care or know about the sport ) is more like your brother than your enemy.

Edited by doctorWrestling

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10 hours ago, doctorWrestling said:

I have to say this has made buscowrestling come out smelling like roses.  I don't know why we always want to assume the worst of someone and the big school guy has to act like Busco's not worthy to make a decision because clearly the big schools should decide everything.  All the guy did was volunteer, donate his time, and try to help.  Then he is accused of shenanigans and demeaned.  I would really hope coaches have more ethics than they are given credit for and there is a good reason why some stuff happens even if it appears bad to those without information on the scenario.  I don't know anyone in this drama, but would say thanks to the guy who volunteered.  I am sure none of them intended to screw kids over.  Hopefully they do listen and make improvements and everyone learns from mistakes made.  As a whole (with few exceptions), everyone in the sport ( I will make an exception for the IHSAA who I do believe doesn't care or know about the sport ) is more like your brother than your enemy.

Agreed!

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Volunteering does not prevent criticism. It's the same with iswa stuff when they do things people don't agree with (qualifiers) you can criticize. Yes busco is giving his time that's admirable and I don't think he as a person should take the heat for this but I'm sick of people using the exscuse of volunteering as a means to avoid criticism for doing something poorly.

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On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:34 PM, buscowrestling said:

To answer your questions about any influence that may have in the wrestling community all I can tell you is that I joined the association.  I volunteered to help with some committees that they had, volunteered as a regional rep. I ran for the position of secratary twice unopposed. Literally any influence that I have is available to anyone willing to put in some time to help with the IHSWCA.

In terms of our wrestling program (which I am not sure has anything at all to do with my ability to volunteer for the coaches association) we are a small community about 10 minutes from Northwest Fort Wayne.  We are not Prairie Heights or Adams Central, but I have to admit that I am a little surprised that a small school wrestling aficionado like yourself didn't know we finished 2nd, 1st, and 5th at the first three team states.  Thats not to say that we are the greatest team in the state, but we have done some good things for a small team, and are generally fairly competitive for a school our size. 

Are you advocating that only big schools have a say in the IHSWCA?  Is there some sort of success factor you feel should be in place for IHSWCA volunteers?

Sorry, been away for a few days volunteering for the sixth wrestling tournament I've ran this year, then spending time with family before I'm off to India.  I can see my comment is inflammatory toward your school's history and apologies to those in the busco community; however at risk of more personal attacks, and I declare I'm no aficionado as you claim, but its interesting that I spent most of my life in eastern Indiana and yes I'm sorry but Churubusco isn't a wrestling name, at least not in the mud hole environment of my up bringing.  The sad thing  that I comment on is why isn't the historical core strength of IN wrestling not part of the decision process?  Perhaps they are and I'm just too ignorant to know that they are.  I will restate what I said before, this is bad for Indiana wrestling, especially the small communities like Churubusco.

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This will lead to more dual meet forfeits especially when sectional opponents are wrestling. Why would a team send a backup out there when the dual is well in hand against another team's better wrestler(s)? 

We already have to go to 6 dual meets, how much harder will it be for schools that do not field a full team to find those two extra matches? 

The net effect of this decision is not good, but by the sound of it the IHSAA held a gun to the committee's head and made them make a decision on the spot. Since they are volunteers it means they can do whatever they want without repercussion or any disagreements.

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8 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

 Why would a team send a backup out there when the dual is well in hand against another team's better wrestler(s)? 

 

 

Maybe to get that backup wrestler a match against a quality opponent.  Isn't one of the important things to get as many kids as possible matches whenever there is an opportunity? Edited by Y2CJ41
Fixed format

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5 hours ago, WOC said:

Maybe to get that backup wrestler a match against a quality opponent.  Isn't one of the important things to get as many kids as possible matches whenever there is an opportunity?

We have a varsity B schedule for that. 

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