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Seeding Meeting Change???

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9 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

This will lead to more dual meet forfeits especially when sectional opponents are wrestling. Why would a team send a backup out there when the dual is well in hand against another team's better wrestler(s)? 

We already have to go to 6 dual meets, how much harder will it be for schools that do not field a full team to find those two extra matches? 

The net effect of this decision is not good, but by the sound of it the IHSAA held a gun to the committee's head and made them make a decision on the spot. Since they are volunteers it means they can do whatever they want without repercussion or any disagreements.

Not sure anyone is saying anything about not being able to disagree with them.  I believe this is what the whole thread is about and they have responded to many of the comments.  Now as far as repercussions go I say we flog them or make Sam shave is flowing locks of hair.

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15 hours ago, Fabio Jr. said:

Volunteering does not prevent criticism. It's the same with iswa stuff when they do things people don't agree with (qualifiers) you can criticize. Yes busco is giving his time that's admirable and I don't think he as a person should take the heat for this but I'm sick of people using the exscuse of volunteering as a means to avoid criticism for doing something poorly.

I agree.  Just curious if we are talking about buscowrestling where it sounds like if he hadn't volunteered would have left a position empty.  Putting a guy on the spot to make that decision or even a group to make that decision may not have been able to come up with the specific scenarios that cause the problem.  It appears they would have to assume some coach would be out to screw kids by forfeiting when they had a kid who could wrestle to make the decision everyone wanted them to make.  I think they made an honest mistake when pressured for a decision.  They should work to correct it, but to beat them up for making an honest mistake doesn't seem right. It still sounds like the only real solution to this is getting the unseeded pigtails away from the #1 and #2 seeded kids.

I don't know anything about the iswa stuff.  Volunteers in general don't do it to mess it up or screw people over.  Maybe they hold on to old ways too long and get in the way of advancement or better ways.  If these are leaders and holding things back intentionally, hold them to whatever standard you want.  

 

Edited by doctorWrestling

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12 minutes ago, doctorWrestling said:

I agree.  Just curious if we are talking about buscowrestling where it sounds like if he hadn't volunteered would have left a position empty.  Putting a guy on the spot to make that decision or even a group to make that decision may not have been able to come up with the specific scenarios that cause the problem.  It appears they would have to assume some coach would be out to screw kids by forfeiting when they had a kid who could wrestle to make the decision everyone wanted them to make.  I think they made an honest mistake when pressured for a decision.  They should work to correct it, but to beat them up for making an honest mistake doesn't seem right. It still sounds like the only real solution to this is getting the unseeded pigtails away from the #1 and #2 seeded kids.

I don't know anything about the iswa stuff.  Volunteers in general don't do it to mess it up or screw people over.  Maybe they hold on to old ways too long and get in the way of advancement or better ways.  If these are leaders and holding things back intentionally, hold them to whatever standard you want.  

 

It doesn't sound like the IHSWCA consider the decision a "mistake" like others do.

We have a weight at our sectional with some very good wrestlers and with 10 teams the worst record is 14-10. The last two unseeded wrestlers could draw a seeded guy that happens to also be a state qualifier. This forfeit thing could really do damage and send a kid that has a shot at regional or beyond home early. A guy that is 21-4 might find it hard to get a seed and be thrown into the hopper to hopefully not draw a top seed.

THAT is what needs fixed FIRST!

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23 minutes ago, doctorWrestling said:

I agree.  Just curious if we are talking about buscowrestling where it sounds like if he hadn't volunteered would have left a position empty.  Putting a guy on the spot to make that decision or even a group to make that decision may not have been able to come up with the specific scenarios that cause the problem.  It appears they would have to assume some coach would be out to screw kids by forfeiting when they had a kid who could wrestle to make the decision everyone wanted them to make.  I think they made an honest mistake when pressured for a decision.  They should work to correct it, but to beat them up for making an honest mistake doesn't seem right. It still sounds like the only real solution to this is getting the unseeded pigtails away from the #1 and #2 seeded kids.

I don't know anything about the iswa stuff.  Volunteers in general don't do it to mess it up or screw people over.  Maybe they hold on to old ways too long and get in the way of advancement or better ways.  If these are leaders and holding things back intentionally, hold them to whatever standard you want.  

 

I think the situation was handled poorly if the IHSAA put us on the spot did anyone say well we weren't aware of this can we have a few days to discuss with our Constituents or send out a survey? Was this known ahead of time and just overlooked? The whole thing was just handled wrong. And the reprecuasions will be the cause of some outcry warrented or not.

I don't think Sam or anyone in that position was trying to be malicious their is just a better way that could have been handled. Addendums where a forfeit where a wrestler weighed in at that weight or an extra kid the weight below should count as a win. At least then the kids not getting a free weigh in. But my opinion is a wins is a win is a win fft blow out last min win all those are one and the same and should be treated as such. Are we going to start saying a tie in winning percentage will go to who has the most falls next? It can be a very slippery slope here. 

 

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This could also be a case of the IHSAA Being the IHSAA I wasn't there I do not know. But I would like to think there is some semblance of understanding and common sense being exspressed. That being said I know the commissioner also looked a bunch of coaches In the eye and said team state wasn't going anywhere so who knows

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23 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

It doesn't sound like the IHSWCA consider the decision a "mistake" like others do.

We have a weight at our sectional with some very good wrestlers and with 10 teams the worst record is 14-10. The last two unseeded wrestlers could draw a seeded guy that happens to also be a state qualifier. This forfeit thing could really do damage and send a kid that has a shot at regional or beyond home early. A guy that is 21-4 might find it hard to get a seed and be thrown into the hopper to hopefully not draw a top seed.

THAT is what needs fixed FIRST!

I totally understand your point and it is messed up, but wouldn't you consider this weight at your sectional a rare circumstance?  If a 21-4 kid isn't getting a seed at sectional, someone worthy is definitely not making it to regional.  How do you prevent a coach in that scenario from not just bumping kids up during duals to avoid losses?  There are other games to play that have the same result as forfeiting.  I still think the problem is controlling where the pigtails are wrestled but I may be missing something.

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2 hours ago, doctorWrestling said:

I totally understand your point and it is messed up, but wouldn't you consider this weight at your sectional a rare circumstance?  If a 21-4 kid isn't getting a seed at sectional, someone worthy is definitely not making it to regional.  How do you prevent a coach in that scenario from not just bumping kids up during duals to avoid losses?  There are other games to play that have the same result as forfeiting.  I still think the problem is controlling where the pigtails are wrestled but I may be missing something.

There are three weights right now with the potential for a wrestler with a winning record to be unseeded. There are a couple others that are close. 

The comment about bumping happens a lot now. That won't change, but what could and probably will change is throwing out JV guys to fill spots when the dual is in hand. In the past if you bumped around a better guy that guy still got a REAL win on his record, but now it is drastically different. You'd be surprised how many seeds are going to be determined by an extra forfeit or two now.

I probably would not be as upset if they fixed the bracket "snafu" that has gone on forever. At least then if my kid drops out of a seed I am not going to be worrying about him drawing a top seed in the pig tails.

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If this was a rule last year, why all the sudden discussion?  Were coaches not fully made aware of this rule last year?  It just seems odd that a rule with this much discussion, which apparently went into effect last year and was not used by most sectionals, would now be heavy in discussion.  

Is this now a focus of the IHSAA?

If Dane would not have made this post, would this have even came to light in the manner that it currently has or would it have just been ignored like last year?

Will there be any consequences for all the sectionals who did not follow this rule last year?  And if not, would that set a precedent that a sectional does not have to follow the rule this year?

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48 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

There are three weights right now with the potential for a wrestler with a winning record to be unseeded. There are a couple others that are close. 

The comment about bumping happens a lot now. That won't change, but what could and probably will change is throwing out JV guys to fill spots when the dual is in hand. In the past if you bumped around a better guy that guy still got a REAL win on his record, but now it is drastically different. You'd be surprised how many seeds are going to be determined by an extra forfeit or two now.

I probably would not be as upset if they fixed the bracket "snafu" that has gone on forever. At least then if my kid drops out of a seed I am not going to be worrying about him drawing a top seed in the pig tails.

Joe,  I have another  idea for a potential solution.   I'snt the reason we do the pigtails is so it to avoid the possibility of having 6 matches in a day with full wrestle backs with a 16 man bracket.  Now the only way we would have a potential of 6 matches would be if we had 13 or more wrestlers in the bracket.  And to do that,  the wrestler would have to have no byes and make the 3rd and 4th place match.    That situation would be very unlikely to happen, because how many brackets don't have 13 or more wrestlers with forfeits or  not even having 13 teams.

Heres the solution,  run full brackets with double elimination.   Say we do hit the scenario of the 6th match. This would be a consolation final.  Here's the change.  Postpone the consolation final to the next week at regional.  Make it a pigtail at the regional.   This would add just one match to the regional and the winning wrestler would potentially have 4 matches the day at regionals at most. No big deal.

 

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On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:05 PM, JMILL said:

If the dominant wrestler takes him down 27 times in a match and the kid doesn't like it he should do something to stop getting taken down. 

If he could do something to stop him, he wouldn't have been taken down 27 times.

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How about wrestlebacks till everyone is satisfied. Then they just hand out participation trophies. No more whining and crying that my Johnny didn't get treated fairly. Geez!

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6 minutes ago, 1prouddad said:

How about wrestlebacks till everyone is satisfied. Then they just hand out participation trophies. No more whining and crying that my Johnny didn't get treated fairly. Geez!

Great idea,   wrestlebacks.  Lets throw in class wrestling while your being generous.

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Joe,  I have another  idea for a potential solution.   I'snt the reason we do the pigtails is so it to avoid the possibility of having 6 matches in a day with full wrestle backs with a 16 man bracket.  Now the only way we would have a potential of 6 matches would be if we had 13 or more wrestlers in the bracket.  And to do that,  the wrestler would have to have no byes and make the 3rd and 4th place match.    That situation would be very unlikely to happen, because how many brackets don't have 13 or more wrestlers with forfeits or  not even having 13 teams.

Heres the solution,  run full brackets with double elimination.   Say we do hit the scenario of the 6th match. This would be a consolation final.  Here's the change.  Postpone the consolation final to the next week at regional.  Make it a pigtail at the regional.   This would add just one match to the regional and the winning wrestler would potentially have 4 matches the day at regionals at most. No big deal.

 

You could do walkovers and/or a repêchage as well.  Illinois used to do walkovers at state, but they do repechage for early losers.

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On 1/15/2018 at 7:36 PM, Fabio Jr. said:

Volunteering does not prevent criticism. It's the same with iswa stuff when they do things people don't agree with (qualifiers) you can criticize. Yes busco is giving his time that's admirable and I don't think he as a person should take the heat for this but I'm sick of people using the exscuse of volunteering as a means to avoid criticism for doing something poorly.

I agree that volunteering should not vaccinate you from criticism.  At the same time, I also don't think it should necessarily be grounds for attacks on one's ethics and scruples just because of differences in opinions. I think one should be able to debate issues without needing to demean someone and attack another's integrity just because of honest disagreements.

One can surely even point out perceived mistakes on another person's part without villifying them and attacking their character.

Being the biggest sarcastic demeaning bully on the forum doesn't necessarilly make one correct on all issues.

(To make sure there is no misunderstanding, I am not suggesting that Fabio, Jr. behaves in such a manner.)

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The problem with any of the rules is there is always some exception where the rule doesn't seem to do what we "think" is right.  So, we can certainly discuss it here (this is after all a discussion forum).  But the simple fact of the matter is whether you count FF or don't there will be circumstances where the rule seems absurd.

My son has been injured for much of the season and weighed in, then not wrestled.  Not dodging anybody, just getting his 6 certified weigh-ins (required by rule).  He's only wrestled in 2 tournaments (often bumped up a weight for 'team reasons') and has received at least 2 FF in his 12 matches.  So, it might be tough luck for him come seeding time.  But, so be it.  He'll wrestle whoever steps out against him.

Frankly, I'd love to see him hit #1 seed before the semi's.  When he pins that kid it will help our team in the sectional championship race since we won't have to wait 'til the finals to beat him:).

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I was wondering how this actually turned out for Y2CJ41.  I honestly don't know so not trying to be a smart aleck.  Just wondered if it actually happened like you were worried it would or if it was not an issue.

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26 minutes ago, doctorWrestling said:

I was wondering how this actually turned out for Y2CJ41.  I honestly don't know so not trying to be a smart aleck.  Just wondered if it actually happened like you were worried it would or if it was not an issue.

At 106 my kid was the 5th seed, we could have argued for the 4 but it didn't matter. Anyway my kid got 3rd and the Churubusco kid who was the 3rd seed got 5th losing to a guy we pinned twice that day. We never got to see the 2nd seed.

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

At 106 my kid was the 5th seed, we could have argued for the 4 but it didn't matter. Anyway my kid got 3rd and the Churubusco kid who was the 3rd seed got 5th losing to a guy we pinned twice that day. We never got to see the 2nd seed.

My plan of having him play hooky at the 5 way and then missing school Monday (so no one would be on to us) in order to get the seed was foiled!

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37 minutes ago, buscowrestling said:

My plan of having him play hooky at the 5 way and then missing school Monday (so no one would be on to us) in order to get the seed was foiled!

But you prevented us from having a shot at the third seed, so that part worked out.

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