base Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 From The Mat forums today.... Embarassing Occurrence in Florida http://www.thematforums.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=323760&sid=a1439da68f6c3a5cc781748892151ebb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 From The Mat forums today.... Embarassing Occurrence in Florida http://www.thematforums.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=323760&sid=a1439da68f6c3a5cc781748892151ebb And we complain about the IHSAA! At least we say no to wrestle-backs so we don't get the magical 6th match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 And we complain about the IHSAA! At least we say no to wrestle-backs so we don't get the magical 6th match. This sounds like poor planning, obviously you know this could happen. You have to recognize this might occur with a 16 man bracket and at least make a two day tournament. Why do we hate wrestlebacks so much in Indiana? It ensures the wrestlers place. Also, class wrestling has it's pros and cons. Im sure Joe could point out the cons. I do have to embarrasingly admit that the "class wrestling debate" goes on the talk forum in my home state. Out west, its quite common to have at least four classes per state or four state tournaments. Most these states have a smaller population than Indiana. This results in state tournament formats where you have 32 teams per class. To qualify, they have four "Regionals" of eight schools. Half the wrestlers qualify for the state tournament. So the ratio of state qualifiers is 16 out of 32 or 50%. Compare that to Indiana where you have 16 out of 312 or 5.1%. Indiana is much more exclusive. The embarrasing thing is that there is always a regional at a lighter weight were only 4 schools cant field a wrestler. The result is that just by weighing in, you automatically qualify for state. Seems unfair from the Indiana perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosgrove Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 There shall only be ONE! and ONE to rule them all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runner-up Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I'm confused...This shouldn't happen because of the rule change. You can see the details of the forfeit rule here: http://www.nfhs.org/content.aspx?id=8884 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I'm confused...This shouldn't happen because of the rule change. You can see the details of the forfeit rule here: http://www.nfhs.org/content.aspx?id=8884 I don't think they got the memo. I thought the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collegestatguy Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Why don't all states go to one class like we do. When I was in high school I liked having one class. You got to wrestle the best kids in the state because it didn't matter how big your school was. And if you win the state tournament, you are truly the best in the state. I just don't understand how you can go any other way. Other small schools might disagree with me, but I came from a small school and I didn't have a problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 The kid was forced to forfeit the match due to having five matches already. It didn't say he had any forfeits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Why don't all states go to one class like we do. When I was in high school I liked having one class. You got to wrestle the best kids in the state because it didn't matter how big your school was. And if you win the state tournament, you are truly the best in the state. I just don't understand how you can go any other way. Other small schools might disagree with me, but I came from a small school and I didn't have a problem with it. Two things: 1. Over 40 states have class wrestling 2. You know the NCAA is classed...right? You are a Wabash fan so you should be telling Danny and Anderson to schedule Iowa, Penn State, Oklahoma State instead of Trine and the other D3 schools so you can test yourselves against the best. I believe that Mr. Lefever was very happy with taking home an All-American award and I have never heard someone approach him and say it didn't mean squat since it wasn't a D1 award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki27 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 The kid was forced to forfeit the match due to having five matches already. It didn't say he had any forfeits. it was only 10 kids in a 16 man bracket so if he was 1 of the 2 kids that lost in the first round he and the other kid shoul have gotten a bye in the first round of consis. Then in the second round of consis there should've been 2 matches and 2 byes now you're left with 4 in the winners and 4 in the losers. He should not have had to wrestle more than 5 times unless they counted his forf against his total or they put those 2 losers of the first round against each other immediately which would have been wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 it was only 10 kids in a 16 man bracket so if he was 1 of the 2 kids that lost in the first round he and the other kid shoul have gotten a bye in the first round of consis. Then in the second round of consis there should've been 2 matches and 2 byes now you're left with 4 in the winners and 4 in the losers. He should not have had to wrestle more than 5 times unless they counted his forf against his total or they put those 2 losers of the first round against each other immediately which would have been wrong. Actually look at the possibility of winning the first round, then losing in the second and drawing into the guy that lost first round. That will give the kid 6 matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collegestatguy Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Two things: 1. Over 40 states have class wrestling 2. You know the NCAA is classed...right? You are a Wabash fan so you should be telling Danny and Anderson to schedule Iowa, Penn State, Oklahoma State instead of Trine and the other D3 schools so you can test yourselves against the best. I believe that Mr. Lefever was very happy with taking home an All-American award and I have never heard someone approach him and say it didn't mean squat since it wasn't a D1 award. Two very good points. And I'm not taking anything away from Reece. He's an awesome wrestler. The D3 nationals are very tough. I would imagine there are some kids there that could have gone to a D1 program but decided to go D3 instead so placing there is a very tough thing to do. Im just saying I like how Indiana does their high school state tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Wrestling Fanpage Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 There shall only be ONE! and ONE to rule them all BUMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki27 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 That's why they should've separated the byes. My point is it shouldn't have happened if anyone knew how to set up the brackets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Two very good points. And I'm not taking anything away from Reece. He's an awesome wrestler. The D3 nationals are very tough. I would imagine there are some kids there that could have gone to a D1 program but decided to go D3 instead so placing there is a very tough thing to do. Im just saying I like how Indiana does their high school state tournament. Did Reece throw his plaque away since it was from D3 nationals and he wasn't "the best?" Did Coach Irwin and Anderson shame him because he only placed at D3 nationals and didn't place at D1 nationals? There is a reason why 40+ states and the NCAA has class athletics. The only states to have an individual singlet class tournament are: Indiana, Kentucky, California, New Jersey, Hawaii, Delaware, Vermont and Arkansas. That is 41 out of 49 states with wrestling as a sanctioned sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 That's why they should've separated the byes. My point is it shouldn't have happened if anyone knew how to set up the brackets. They separated the byes, 3 byes on each side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki27 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 They separated the byes, 3 byes on each side. you have 4 groups of 4. In your scenario groups 2 and 3 have a match in the first round. If it were groups 1 and 3 or 2 and 4 they wouldn't have had the problem and you still have 3 byes on both sides of the bracket. They just set the bracket up wrong and its a shame that kid didn't get to wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collegestatguy Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Did Reece throw his plaque away since it was from D3 nationals and he wasn't "the best?" Did Coach Irwin and Anderson shame him because he only placed at D3 nationals and didn't place at D1 nationals? No he didn't and that's why I just credited him with being an awesome wrestler and saying that the D3 nationals are very tough. You are making it sound like I'm putting down D3 wrestling when in fact I'm not. And I understand that there are very few states that do individual state tournaments. I'm just saying I like the way Indiana does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 No he didn't and that's why I just credited him with being an awesome wrestler and saying that the D3 nationals are very tough. You are making it sound like I'm putting down D3 wrestling when in fact I'm not. And I understand that there are very few states that do individual state tournaments. I'm just saying I like the way Indiana does it. When you say there only needs to be one champion in high school, it should translate into the same for college that has a classed system. Without a classed system in college Wabash wouldn't have a team. You need to realize how much a classed system is good for college wrestling...when you accept that you will also realize how a classed system helps high schools too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basic13s Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I'm not sure of how this would work but if the IHSAA sanctioned a three class individual tourney could MD even bump up to 3A? Would there be a legacy system for teams with 3 or 4+ state champs multiple years? Interesting to discuss even though a lot of people are burnt out on class discussion. #CAB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I'm not sure of how this would work but if the IHSAA sanctioned a three class individual tourney could MD even bump up to 3A? Would there be a legacy system for teams with 3 or 4+ state champs multiple years? Interesting to discuss even though a lot of people are burnt out on class discussion. #CAB Two classes would be ideal for individual state with the number of schools we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 My idea to have are cake and eat it to. Lets have a class tournament with 3 classes. This would shorten the state tournament a week. Then use the additional week to have the ultimate state championship and take the 4 placers from each classs and then have a them wrestle off for the championship. We would have class state champions like the others states, but the other states woulndnt have the ultimate state champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 My idea to have are cake and eat it to. Lets have a class tournament with 3 classes. This would shorten the state tournament a week. Then use the additional week to have the ultimate state championship and take the 4 placers from each classs and then have a them wrestle off for the championship. We would have class state champions like the others states, but the other states woulndnt have the ultimate state champion. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a class state championship? That didn't seem to work too well for basketball when they first tried it. It seems to me you want the class system, but you also want to tell the kid that won in the class system they really aren't the state champion. That is like the NCAA D3 champions being invited to D1 nationals and then you telling them "see you aren't all that since you got beat by the D1 guys." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjayroza Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 IMO - I like the idea of having classed Team State, but like having one class when it comes to individual tournament. It seems like that it is obvious that the larger 3A schools (on average) will be deeper and have more of a talent pool to pick from. In this instance having it classed should be a no-brainer. However, if we class the individual tournament I think we will miss some great match-ups. For example, if this year was classed we wouldn't see a possible Micic vs Lee match-up. If Micic were to win the 2A and Lee the 3A they both would be champs, but I definitely would have liked to see them wrestle. I just think we would be missing out on this. I do understand that it would be great to grow the sport. (More participants, more schools involved, more interest) However, I like knowing who is #1 in the state. I like seeing this unfold and having all of our questions answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a class state championship? That didn't seem to work too well for basketball when they first tried it. It seems to me you want the class system, but you also want to tell the kid that won in the class system they really aren't the state champion. That is like the NCAA D3 champions being invited to D1 nationals and then you telling them "see you aren't all that since you got beat by the D1 guys." I don't think so. It would give a realistic goal for some of the smaller schools to actually compete with each other and not get squashed by the big guy. You could win your state championship, and then you get you're big school vs small school (Hoosiers experience). The NCAA used to let the D2 All-Americans compete in the NCAA D1 tournament and occasionally one some of those guys would have placed. This didnt take away from their D2 accomplishments. It was icing on the cake. The biggest difference from basketball and wrestling was that was a team thing and the wrestlers are individual. We see already that occassionaly the small school guy can hop in and do something. I think the debatable question in the multiple class system vs the one class system: Does one promote more participation over the other? Does the fact that we have one class, and the mountain is so high to win something, that high schoolers forgo competing in wrestling. Or is it that we have one class, does the goal of becoming the true state champ motivate kids to work harder and make a more competitive environment that encourages wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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