jchas Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 My 2 cents. You can't compare a public school to a private school. MD may only have the enrolment of a 2A school. But they get a lot of the best wrestlers from a city the size of Ft. Wayne. I would love to see private schools have to use a map system to be classified. 1) Take a map of the area. 2) Mark where all the kids that participle in athletics live. 3) Use the population density factor for the area to figure the class. Then you would have a much better representation of the schools true class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Sound in theory but a logistical nightmare considering they cant even count the number of students correctly the first time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 I am sure it would not be that hard. I am sure there are people out there who would help the ISHAA gather info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigtoe19 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Men, let me tell you Public/Private is a very touchy subject with Mr. Cox @ the IHSAA !!!! Watch what you say!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Christmas Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 your argument would make sense if Mater Dei were competing at the 2A level. the chose to bump up to 3A which is the highest class with the largest schools. so please explain what you hope to accomplish ny mapping? they would simply be 3A which is where they are competing. I just don't understand the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU89 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Mater Dei's enrollment puts them in class 1A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Christmas Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Mater Dei's enrollment puts them in class 1A [/quote as I was responding to the initial post, not knowing the exact enrollment. this just proves the irrelevance of the initial complaint even further. thank you for the correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook and half Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 My 2 cents. You can't compare a public school to a private school. MD may only have the enrolment of a 2A school. But they get a lot of the best wrestlers from a city the size of Ft. Wayne. I would love to see private schools have to use a map system to be classified. 1) Take a map of the area. 2) Mark where all the kids that participle in athletics live. 3) Use the population density factor for the area to figure the class. Then you would have a much better representation of the schools true class jchas I cannot speak for other Catholic schools in Indiana, but I am aware of the situation at Mater Dei. Mater Dei has seven elementary schools which feed the high school. The other Catholic school in Evansville, Memorial, is located on the east side of town. Memorial has a situation similar to Mater Dei. Here are the facts about Mater Dei’s line-up: 106, Will Egli: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Philip. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. His mother is a Mater Dei graduate. 113, Kyle Luigs: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Wendel. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. His dad and grandfather were Mater Dei wrestlers and graduates. 120, Alex Johnson: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Westside Catholic. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 126, Nick Lee: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Corpus Christi. One year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 132, Blake Jourdan: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Holy Redeemer. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 138, Wyatt Seng: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Philip. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother and father are Mater Dei graduates; his dad was also a wrestler for MD. 145, Josh Pierre: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Westside Catholic. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother and father are Mater Dei graduates. 152, Logan Weinzapfel: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Corpus Christi. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother and father are Mater Dei graduates. Father was a State Qualifier. 160, Ashton Forzley: Began wrestling for Resurrection in the fourth grade when his family moved to Evansville. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother was a Mater Dei graduate. 170, Bennet Kempf: Wrestled for Westside Catholic from Kindergarten to fourth grade. Began wrestling again in high school. The first-year starter’s dad is a Mater Dei graduate. 182, Sam Bassemier: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Philip. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. His dad is a Mater Dei graduate and State Qualifier. 195, Seth Orth: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Holy Redeemer. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 220, Adrian Butler: Transferred to Mater Dei from Harrison High School after his freshman year. Wrestled junior varsity for Mater Dei his sophomore year and became a starter this year. With a 10-6 record, Adrian is likely the least-experienced of any of the starters—and one of the Red and Gold’s favorite wrestlers. 285, Levi Massey: Wrestled from Kindergarten until fourth grade for Westside Catholic. Started wrestling again as a junior. Became a starter this year. Levi’s grandfather, Fred Happe, was a State Champion for Mater Dei in 1964. In Evansville, as far as “getting the best wrestlers”, the situation is the reverse of what you describe. Typically, many Catholic kids in Evansville attend Catholic school until the 8th-grade, then transfer to a public High School. They take their wrestling training with them. In any given year, look on the rosters of the Evansville public schools and you will find wrestlers that grew up in the Mater Dei and Memorial feeder programs. This year is no exception. As far as recruiting goes, if you have $7500 (annual tuition) and are willing to take your kid to school and pick him up, you also can be recruited to Mater Dei. BTW- Mater Dei is a small 2A school with an enrollment of about 500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 I give props to EMD for wrestling in the largest class. Truelly that is probably where they Belong. This subject goes well beyond wrestling. Private schools dominate the ISHAA series as a whole. Why is that? I would say it is because they are able to bring in athletes from a much larger area than The normal public school. For this reason I like the map idea. Their enrollment would be based on the population density surrounding the school + the size of the area where the athletes live. This would be a much more realistic representation of class size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachM Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 The recruiting question is basically a moot point anymore, open enrollment allows kids to basically go to what ever school they want public or private. Many of the top teams in the state have kids transfer in from other schools, some are because of family movement and some because of better wrestling programs. At least MD has taken it upon themselves to move up to 3A and compete with the big schools, I know the MD recruiting issue is as old as their first state title so I think it is worn out by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 That is why I never said anything about recruiting. People are free to send their kids anywhere they want. I truly have no problem with recruiting. I only gave a option, that I believe would better represent a schools true class size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 Here is another options. 1) Take a record of where the athlete from the private school would attend. 2) See what class that would be. 3) Average the Class for the Athletes. 4) That would be your ISHAA Class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 The private/public thing goes way deeper than recruiting. First off, EVERY private school recruits. They MUST or they will close their doors. Many times it doesn't take much as the kids have had parents, uncles, aunts, etc all go to that school so it is a given they will attend the said school. Also take a look at a private school's website and they almost always boost about high test scores, graduation rate and college acceptance rate. If a private school doesn't recruit they won't have students and thus tuition to pay the bills. Secondly, you need to look at the types of kids that go to a private school vs. public. At a public school you have kids that don't want to be there, we all know those type of kids. They barely get by and obviously are not in extracurricular activities. Private schools have a lot less of these kids mainly because their parents are paying a good chunk of change for them to attend. Also you will have a lot less special education kids at private schools because they simply do not have the staff to support those kids. Those types of kids are also much less likely to participate in extracurricular activities. In the end those types of kids plus many others such as that means the school already has a built in percentage of kids not eligible or willing to participate in extracurricular activities. Lastly, you need to look at the money side of things. Many times if a kid is attending a private school that hints at two other family characteristics. First most likely they are a two parent family. Everyone knows that having a stable home life never hurts kids academically or athletically. Second, if the family can afford $3-5K or more, they are usually more apt to afford camps or private lessons in athletics. One last thing before people start naming kids who are the exceptions, I am speaking generally and know there are many, many exceptions to these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook and half Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 That is why I never said anything about recruiting. People are free to send their kids anywhere they want. I truly have no problem with recruiting. I only gave a option, that I believe would better represent a schools true class size. When you say "they get the best wrestlers from a city the size of Fort Wayne", it is implied md is "recruiting" wrestlers. Jchas, md's talent is home grown. Y2 gives a fair accounting of the whys and hows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 When you say "they get the best wrestlers from a city the size of Fort Wayne", it is implied md is "recruiting" wrestlers. Jchas, md's talent is home grown. Y2 gives a fair accounting of the whys and hows. No, it says exactly what is say. You get your talent spread out over a city the size of Ft. Wayne. The same as Ft. Wayne Snider. (5A) school. Cathedral get theirs from all over Indy. Most schools are 5A. If you take "some" of the best kids from school systems that are 5A schools. Then you should be a 5A school. If you take them from an area that supports 3A schools. Than you should be 3A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrq Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 No, it says exactly what is say. You get your talent spread out over a city the size of Ft. Wayne. The same as Ft. Wayne Snider. (5A) school. Cathedral get theirs from all over Indy. Most schools are 5A. If you take "some" of the best kids from school systems that are 5A schools. Then you should be a 5A school. If you take them from an area that supports 3A schools. Than you should be 3A I must agree perfect example Bishop Luers football team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook and half Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 No, it says exactly what is say. You get your talent spread out over a city the size of Ft. Wayne. The same as Ft. Wayne Snider. (5A) school. Cathedral get theirs from all over Indy. Most schools are 5A. If you take "some" of the best kids from school systems that are 5A schools. Then you should be a 5A school. If you take them from an area that supports 3A schools. Than you should be 3A I ignored mark twain's good advice. "You should never argue with a fool, an onlooker may not be able to tell the difference." you should go on a football message board to espouse your musings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 jchas I cannot speak for other Catholic schools in Indiana, but I am aware of the situation at Mater Dei. Mater Dei has seven elementary schools which feed the high school. The other Catholic school in Evansville, Memorial, is located on the east side of town. Memorial has a situation similar to Mater Dei. Here are the facts about Mater Dei’s line-up: 106, Will Egli: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Philip. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. His mother is a Mater Dei graduate. 113, Kyle Luigs: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Wendel. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. His dad and grandfather were Mater Dei wrestlers and graduates. 120, Alex Johnson: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Westside Catholic. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 126, Nick Lee: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Corpus Christi. One year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 132, Blake Jourdan: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Holy Redeemer. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 138, Wyatt Seng: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Philip. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother and father are Mater Dei graduates; his dad was also a wrestler for MD. 145, Josh Pierre: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Westside Catholic. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother and father are Mater Dei graduates. 152, Logan Weinzapfel: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Corpus Christi. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother and father are Mater Dei graduates. Father was a State Qualifier. 160, Ashton Forzley: Began wrestling for Resurrection in the fourth grade when his family moved to Evansville. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother was a Mater Dei graduate. 170, Bennet Kempf: Wrestled for Westside Catholic from Kindergarten to fourth grade. Began wrestling again in high school. The first-year starter’s dad is a Mater Dei graduate. 182, Sam Bassemier: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Philip. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. His dad is a Mater Dei graduate and State Qualifier. 195, Seth Orth: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Holy Redeemer. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 220, Adrian Butler: Transferred to Mater Dei from Harrison High School after his freshman year. Wrestled junior varsity for Mater Dei his sophomore year and became a starter this year. With a 10-6 record, Adrian is likely the least-experienced of any of the starters—and one of the Red and Gold’s favorite wrestlers. 285, Levi Massey: Wrestled from Kindergarten until fourth grade for Westside Catholic. Started wrestling again as a junior. Became a starter this year. Levi’s grandfather, Fred Happe, was a State Champion for Mater Dei in 1964. In Evansville, as far as “getting the best wrestlers”, the situation is the reverse of what you describe. Typically, many Catholic kids in Evansville attend Catholic school until the 8th-grade, then transfer to a public High School. They take their wrestling training with them. In any given year, look on the rosters of the Evansville public schools and you will find wrestlers that grew up in the Mater Dei and Memorial feeder programs. This year is no exception. As far as recruiting goes, if you have $7500 (annual tuition) and are willing to take your kid to school and pick him up, you also can be recruited to Mater Dei. BTW- Mater Dei is a small 2A school with an enrollment of about 500. Best post of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 I believe you called me a fool for having a different opinion then yours. You obviously want to believe that private schools are on the same level playing field with public schools. The numbers just don't show that to be the case. Year after year the private schools win title after title. You can continue to believe what you believe. But that does not make it truth. "A fool is someone who does the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome." I for one am no fool. Private schools will continue to dominate the state series until we change something. That is a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samaj Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I didn't realize private schools dominated our sport?? Football maybe, but not wrestling. Mater Dei must "back". It took less than 24 hours for recruiting implications to show up. Ridiculous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 I didn't realize private schools dominated our sport?? Football maybe, but not wrestling. Mater Dei must "back". It took less than 24 hours for recruiting implications to show up. Ridiculous! I am sorry but that was not my intentions when this post started. I started this topic off of the original post so that it would not take away from what the teams did at State. I once again don't care about recruiting. EMD is a great program and competes on the highest level. And yes this in not really a wrestling problem. But it is a big issue in ISHAA sports. I just thought people would maybe be open to different way of classing schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 [glow=red,2,300]This is what I was replying to but I did not want to make the state tournament a class discussion. I guess I did exactly what I didn't want to do.[/glow]Posts: 98 View Profile Personal Message (Offline) School: Griffith Re: Yorktown 2A champs « Reply #14 on: Today at 10:23 AM »Quote Quote from: Y2CJ41 on Yesterday at 06:07 PM Time to bump up? I agree with this. You can only be a big fish in a little pond for so long. If their excellent program really wants to see where they stand, I would love to see them bump up. Maybe the ISHWA can adopt the same bump up rules, as the IHSAA did for Football. Just a thought. I would really like to see Yorktown do that at Disney and for Team State. It would be great for Wrestling. I like their program, I would love to see how they do against the BIG DOGS. Isn't EMD considered 1A or 2A technically? Report to moderator Logged Panther Out! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WrestleMan State Placer ** Posts: 500 View Profile Personal Message (Online) School: Too cool for school Re: Yorktown 2A champs « Reply #15 on: Today at 10:37 AM »Quote EMD has about 500 students. I think they would qualify as a 1A school going strictly by numbers. I'm glad they choose to bump up to 3A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki27 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 A lot of states have a separate state championship for parochial schools and others automatically bump parochial schools up 1 division in football anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piscis1956 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 The private/public thing goes way deeper than recruiting. First off, EVERY private school recruits. They MUST or they will close their doors. Many times it doesn't take much as the kids have had parents, uncles, aunts, etc all go to that school so it is a given they will attend the said school. Also take a look at a private school's website and they almost always boost about high test scores, graduation rate and college acceptance rate. If a private school doesn't recruit they won't have students and thus tuition to pay the bills. Secondly, you need to look at the types of kids that go to a private school vs. public. At a public school you have kids that don't want to be there, we all know those type of kids. They barely get by and obviously are not in extracurricular activities. Private schools have a lot less of these kids mainly because their parents are paying a good chunk of change for them to attend. Also you will have a lot less special education kids at private schools because they simply do not have the staff to support those kids. Those types of kids are also much less likely to participate in extracurricular activities. In the end those types of kids plus many others such as that means the school already has a built in percentage of kids not eligible or willing to participate in extracurricular activities. Lastly, you need to look at the money side of things. Many times if a kid is attending a private school that hints at two other family characteristics. First most likely they are a two parent family. Everyone knows that having a stable home life never hurts kids academically or athletically. Second, if the family can afford $3-5K or more, they are usually more apt to afford camps or private lessons in athletics. One last thing before people start naming kids who are the exceptions, I am speaking generally and know there are many, many exceptions to these. You make some very fine points, Y2. There is a very good reason why many private schools excel both academically and athletically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piscis1956 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 jchas I cannot speak for other Catholic schools in Indiana, but I am aware of the situation at Mater Dei. Mater Dei has seven elementary schools which feed the high school. The other Catholic school in Evansville, Memorial, is located on the east side of town. Memorial has a situation similar to Mater Dei. Here are the facts about Mater Dei’s line-up: 106, Will Egli: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Philip. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. His mother is a Mater Dei graduate. 113, Kyle Luigs: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Wendel. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. His dad and grandfather were Mater Dei wrestlers and graduates. 120, Alex Johnson: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Westside Catholic. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 126, Nick Lee: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Corpus Christi. One year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 132, Blake Jourdan: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Holy Redeemer. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 138, Wyatt Seng: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Philip. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother and father are Mater Dei graduates; his dad was also a wrestler for MD. 145, Josh Pierre: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Westside Catholic. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother and father are Mater Dei graduates. 152, Logan Weinzapfel: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Corpus Christi. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother and father are Mater Dei graduates. Father was a State Qualifier. 160, Ashton Forzley: Began wrestling for Resurrection in the fourth grade when his family moved to Evansville. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. Mother was a Mater Dei graduate. 170, Bennet Kempf: Wrestled for Westside Catholic from Kindergarten to fourth grade. Began wrestling again in high school. The first-year starter’s dad is a Mater Dei graduate. 182, Sam Bassemier: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for St. Philip. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. His dad is a Mater Dei graduate and State Qualifier. 195, Seth Orth: Began wrestling in Kindergarten for Holy Redeemer. Three year member of the Mater Dei Junior Wildcats. 220, Adrian Butler: Transferred to Mater Dei from Harrison High School after his freshman year. Wrestled junior varsity for Mater Dei his sophomore year and became a starter this year. With a 10-6 record, Adrian is likely the least-experienced of any of the starters—and one of the Red and Gold’s favorite wrestlers. 285, Levi Massey: Wrestled from Kindergarten until fourth grade for Westside Catholic. Started wrestling again as a junior. Became a starter this year. Levi’s grandfather, Fred Happe, was a State Champion for Mater Dei in 1964. In Evansville, as far as “getting the best wrestlers”, the situation is the reverse of what you describe. Typically, many Catholic kids in Evansville attend Catholic school until the 8th-grade, then transfer to a public High School. They take their wrestling training with them. In any given year, look on the rosters of the Evansville public schools and you will find wrestlers that grew up in the Mater Dei and Memorial feeder programs. This year is no exception. As far as recruiting goes, if you have $7500 (annual tuition) and are willing to take your kid to school and pick him up, you also can be recruited to Mater Dei. BTW- Mater Dei is a small 2A school with an enrollment of about 500. Thank you for posting. I find this all very interesting. I'm always impressed with what EMD accomplishes athletically with their size of school ... not only in wrestling. That said, I think you missed Mr. Chastain's point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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