The Guru Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 That we're not doing? http://awn.theopenmat.com/2013/03/2013-ncaa-division-i-qualifiers-by-home-state/ Indiana NCAA d1 qualifiers: 6 ..............Iowa 14, Illinois 17, New Jersey 24, Ohio 33, Pennsylvania 52. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 You could add Howe out with red shirt but still a land slide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 They all just work harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Hull Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Going out of state. I have a theory, and I'm all for Indiana Pride, but look at the numbers. There's more to it of course (grassroots, coaching, socio-economics, etc.) but it's not surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 That we're not doing? http://awn.theopenmat.com/2013/03/2013-ncaa-division-i-qualifiers-by-home-state/ Indiana NCAA d1 qualifiers: 6 ..............Iowa 14, Illinois 17, New Jersey 24, Ohio 33, Pennsylvania 52. Disapointing turn out for Indiana and I don't really see an All-American in the Indiana 6. Here's some of my theories/ideas for discussion. 1. The one class high school structure. Indiana based on number of particpating in the state series, has the 2nd toughest state tournament in the counry just behind California. This brings out the cream of the crop and the tough competition can inspire young wrestlers to work hard, but does it also discourage some young wrestlers. Its a big mountain to climb to get to the state championship. Some kids see that as a big sacrifice and give up. Also some kids maybe would have more success in classed system thus motivate them to push harder to the next level. In a similar comparison, California had 17 qualifiers, which is good but when you look a the population of the state maybe not as good as it should be. 2. Youth wrestling structrure. Indiana has aligned itself heavily with USA wrestling. USA wrestling is a good brand and provides an solid platform/structure to grow young talent into NCAA all-americans. But the structure is rigid and can be more costly to support the affiliation. In contrast, Ohio has very little to do with USA wrestling. Most tournaments in Ohio you don't need a card or your club doesn't have to have an affiliation to host a tournament. Also they group most there weight classes after weigh in and are not constrained by USA wrestling weight classes. They also mostly use the modified rules format, where you don't start neutral after wrestling stoppages. Indirect result, is Ohio has 3 times more youth tournaments for kids to participate. This results in less travel time, tournaments move quicker, cost less, and you're more likely to get a better matchup in the brackets and kids are less likely to cut weight. 3. Basketball overshadows wrestling Traditional emphasis on basketball pulls good athletes and out of the wrestling pool. Also wrestling media coverage is poor due to the over coverage of basketball. Indiana is surrounded by some of the greatest wrestling states in the country, and it has the potential to be just as good as these states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 But we did have 5 more than Russia, which makes us better than Russia in wrestling!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 But we did have 5 more than Russia, which makes us better than Russia in wrestling!! Oh thank god i was worried! DEMOCRACY WINS AGAIN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guru Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 But we did have 5 more than Russia, which makes us better than Russia in wrestling!! MERICA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralsDad Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Probably the biggest difference between IN and other states is the quality of the Division I programs in the state. IU and Purdue are the bottom of the Big 10. Good programs but no champions in any weight class in the conference tournament. To get an out of state offer to a Div I school takes a very special kid - like Howe. Most are going to end up in state just because of the scholarship limits and money it costs the university for out state kids. Other states youth programs are definately better ran that Indiana's though also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Caller Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 If Indiana want to compete on that level the answer is quite simple.... Travel EAST!!!!!! Go to the competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guru Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 Probably the biggest difference between IN and other states is the quality of the Division I programs in the state. IU and Purdue are the bottom of the Big 10. Good programs but no champions in any weight class in the conference tournament. To get an out of state offer to a Div I school takes a very special kid - like Howe. Most are going to end up in state just because of the scholarship limits and money it costs the university for out state kids. Other states youth programs are definately better ran that Indiana's though also. Good points. If we (wrestling community) demand better performance from our in-state college programs could that pressure make a difference? What are some of the larger, more obvious things other states are doing better than us in their youth programs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FormerHornet Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Sadly pressure on Purdue and IU won't help. I am currently studying Higher Education and currently on average, when broken down to a microlevel, virtually all division 1 universities are losing $9.5 million each year due to athletics. (Microlevel meaning cost of travel, tutors, coaches salaries, scholarships, legal fees, maintaining athletic facilities, ticket sales representatives, hiring athletic trainers, and so on) Almost every major university in America is hemorrhaging money due to sports. So the pressure most all universities are facing is how to subsidize the cost of sports. Often as a result of trying to save money they cut non revenue generating sports. Part of the issue is kids in Indiana are conditioned at birth to pick up a basketball. Hoosier lore is true. Indiana hands down is the best basketball state in the United States and is not even close to the most populated. Why? Because of tradition, fantastic coaching, media coverage, the relatively speaking cheap costs to participate, the abundance of youth leagues, the AAU system which promotes traveling to face elite competition, it's classed so more kids have the ability on a "big" stage to showcase their talent, and many more factors. Indiana wrestling is slowly heading in the right direction. But it is going to take sometime. I think something to consider if the Olympics do not reinstate wrestling the effects could be devastating for the sport and I foresee many universities cutting programs due to the fact their would be no more room for advancement in the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGoatGrappler Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 One of the things they do is TRAVEL. I'm a firm believer that in order to be the best, you have to wrestle the best. For the most part, our IN HS kids don't get to do that (other than Disney Duals in the "off-season" and some USAW events) but they don't travel as a team out of IN during the season. With the IHSAA travel restriction, IN HS teams will never get the benefits that the PA teams do by travelling. The top team at the Reno Tournament of Champions (dubbed the "toughest tournament in the country") has been won by a PA high school team many times. The PA team that won this year flew right over our great state on their way to Nevada. PA and OH teams beat the snot out of each other all year making each other better when the IN teams stay home. Ohio's Rule: 2) Out of State Travel A wrestling team may travel out of state to compete in contests (scrimmages, previews and games) in states or provinces in Canada that are contiguous to Ohio regardless of distance traveled. The states include Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania and West Virginia. The province includes Ontario. Additionally, a wrestling team may travel out of state one time per interscholastic season to compete in states or provinces in Canada that are not contiguous to Ohio... hmmm... makes one wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 There is nothing stopping our top teams from seeking competition in neighboring states. MD goes to Missouri, and they've been to Ohio many times. I know that Merriville has been to the same tournament in Missouri as MD and Mishawaka has wrestled teams from Michigan (I think). Teams like Perry should seek competition outside the state. Teams from the region have a short trip to the Chicago suburbs that have really good teams. Now, maybe they have looked at doing this and just haven't been able to make it work due to scheduling or other issues. I guess my point is don't blame the travel restrictions when there are some many good teams in our neighboring states that we don't attempt to wrestle (at least it doesn't appear that we have attempted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I think there are a few factors involved: 1. Population density is greater in most of those states. More athletes to go around and a greater chance that lightening will strike and you will more well wired athletes on the mat. Hard work will take a person so far and then a certain amount of genetics comes into play. 2. Quality of coaching. We have good dedicated coaches in Indiana, but how many of them have competed at the college level for any length of time? Most of the states listed have alot more colleges that offer wrestling than Indiana does thus more potentially better coaches. Does it mean that a wrestler who has competed in college for four years will always be a better coach than someone who is a "Lay" coach....absolutely not, but if you had a poll of ten and the only thing you knew was the level of competition that they had attained to then which ones are yo going to bet on as far as being the best coaches? 3. Tradition. In Indiana we continue to struggle with tradition. We have our tradition the only problem is that it is limited to a relatively small circle of people. Basketball is so huge in Indiana because of tradition. Football has made great strides and has went from only a few kids being looked at by Major Colleges to where it is more common place. The Colts have helped Football. I think that ISWA programs have helped wrestling move from almost no National recognition to the point today where we are thinking about how can we get into the elite group instead of simply how can we get off the mat which was how it was 20-30 years ago. Solutions: 1. There is nothing we can do to make our population as big as PA, NJ, CA so why worry. 2. Our coaching has improved of late because of efforts by the ISWA and the IHSWCA, but we still have a ways to go. We need to continue to get more coaches involved. We need to strive to develop college programs. Louisville has been talking about wrestling. It is in Kentucky, but that would benefit Indiana wrestling in terms of post HS opportunities as well as them graduating people that might want to coach. We also need to figure out ways to encoourage wrestling at Indiana colleges whehter it being adding the sport to their actual programs or developing teams that will compete at the NCWA level. 3. Our tradition has improved due to the various wrestling organizations and we need to keep working to showcase the benefits of kids wrestling. We have to continually inspect our image to see what we can do to make our sport look good. Sometimes we shoot ourselves in the foot. Enough for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PANKOStrengthSpeed Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I do not like to offer reasons/explanations and not solutions. BUT, and this is aside from the wrestlers we train...most of the athletes we train are kids that have 5'10" and shorter dads that believe they are going to play college basketball. I am all for young athletes dreaming, but I hate the fact that a lot of kids ride the pine in basketball because they have given up wrestling, or never wrestled because of a Div I/NBA dream. 3/5, 60% of the Big 10 Basketball First Team went to high school or goes to college in Indiana. It is a cultural thing. It is hard to break. I do think Indiana is moving in the right direction, and I have no doubt that school, club and private coaches will press on like hell to make sure the sport continues to grow in this state. Adrian Panko, pankostrengthandspeed.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 There is nothing stopping our top teams from seeking competition in neighboring states. MD goes to Missouri, and they've been to Ohio many times. I know that Merriville has been to the same tournament in Missouri as MD and Mishawaka has wrestled teams from Michigan (I think). Teams like Perry should seek competition outside the state. Teams from the region have a short trip to the Chicago suburbs that have really good teams. Now, maybe they have looked at doing this and just haven't been able to make it work due to scheduling or other issues. I guess my point is don't blame the travel restrictions when there are some many good teams in our neighboring states that we don't attempt to wrestle (at least it doesn't appear that we have attempted). We can't compete in the toughest tournaments in the neighboring states... I would consider that stopping us. No good team is gonna take time to dual us untill we can compete in tournies like the dvorak or Iron man. Until the IHSAA changes the stupid rule that doesnt affect Indiana athletes then we will never be able to do that. It's not difficult to understand. A rule is in place that has no effect on Indiana athletes except not allowing them to compete with the nations best. The 600 mile rule is fine i get that. But why does it matter if Pennsylvania or Florida wanna send their athletes across the country? WHO CARES!? I think this would allow us to send some of our best athletes to the Iron man and start to give Indiana some National Cred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 We can't compete in the toughest tournaments in the neighboring states... I would consider that stopping us. No good team is gonna take time to dual us untill we can compete in tournies like the dvorak or Iron man. Until the IHSAA changes the stupid rule that doesnt affect Indiana athletes then we will never be able to do that. It's not difficult to understand. A rule is in place that has no effect on Indiana athletes except not allowing them to compete with the nations best. The 600 mile rule is fine i get that. But why does it matter if Pennsylvania or Florida wanna send their athletes across the country? WHO CARES!? I think this would allow us to send some of our best athletes to the Iron man and start to give Indiana some National Cred. Didn't stop MD from wrestling St. Paris Graham a few years ago (or St. Ed's way back in the day) or going to the Cheesehead or going to Cincy. And by the way, I agree that the rule is stupid. But there are plenty of opportunities to find good out of state competition within the rules. Unfortunately few teams in Indiana seek out those opportunities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Didn't stop MD from wrestling St. Paris Graham a few years ago (or St. Ed's way back in the day) or going to the Cheesehead or going to Cincy. And by the way, I agree that the rule is stupid. But there are plenty of opportunities to find good out of state competition within the rules. Unfortunately few teams in Indiana seek out those opportunities. Mater Dei had credentials they won state 9 straight times. 3x State champions is good but Graham or Eds is not gonna waste a dual to wrestle Perry. I know Tonte said he tried to schedule a dual with Moeller but was unable to do so. the Fact remains is we have no respect. The impidious is on us to try and find better competition but those schools can go and wrestle 2-3 teams of that calibur in state. Which is why we need to have access to tournaments like Powerade and Ironman so that we can show that we can hang with the big dogs. Now the Dvorak is a possible tournament to get in it stays in the parameters of the rules as far as I can see. (surprised me) Its no iron man but its close. Who wants to take the plunge? Perry could make the strongest case to get in but they would probably need to drop North Mont. Realistically I think we could have a top 5 dual team finish top 10 there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I do not like to offer reasons/explanations and not solutions. BUT, and this is aside from the wrestlers we train...most of the athletes we train are kids that have 5'10" and shorter dads that believe they are going to play college basketball. I am all for young athletes dreaming, but I hate the fact that a lot of kids ride the pine in basketball because they have given up wrestling, or never wrestled because of a Div I/NBA dream. 3/5, 60% of the Big 10 Basketball First Team went to high school or goes to college in Indiana. It is a cultural thing. It is hard to break. I do think Indiana is moving in the right direction, and I have no doubt that school, club and private coaches will press on like hell to make sure the sport continues to grow in this state. Adrian Panko, pankostrengthandspeed.com Gelen Robinson. Check that bloodline. It's not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 The impidious I think you mean "impetus." Sorry, couldn't help myself. I know, I'm a jag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 That is correct. Fix away my browser at work does not spell check and i'll be the first to admit my generation is worthless without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Mater Dei had credentials they won state 9 straight times. 3x State champions is good but Graham or Eds is not gonna waste a dual to wrestle Perry. I know Tonte said he tried to schedule a dual with Moeller but was unable to do so. the Fact remains is we have no respect. The impidious is on us to try and find better competition but those schools can go and wrestle 2-3 teams of that calibur in state. Which is why we need to have access to tournaments like Powerade and Ironman so that we can show that we can hang with the big dogs. Now the Dvorak is a possible tournament to get in it stays in the parameters of the rules as far as I can see. (surprised me) Its no iron man but its close. Who wants to take the plunge? Perry could make the strongest case to get in but they would probably need to drop North Mont. Realistically I think we could have a top 5 dual team finish top 10 there. Start smaller. Instead of trying to schedule top 5 teams in the nation like St. Paris Graham, how about just a top 5 team in the state of Ohio or Illinois? Beating teams like that will get you some notice and could open a door to a match up with the St. Eds of the world. Staying put in Indiana and beating up on the same teams every year doesn't do anything to enhance a national profile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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