Devils27 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I love that the state championships are now determined at one meet. It is similar to college where the best team takes the big prize. I do feel we're a step behind hwne it comes to wrestlebacks. If you lose first round you're out of the tourney hence getting the same point value as someone else. Also if you make the Semi's you're guaranteed 4th place. We've all seen State champs default at Semi-state, take 4th and then ruin a great wrestlers chance of being on the medal stand. I think full wrestlebacks would make State the true State Championships and making every match count that much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toe the Line Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 some of the best wrestling at the NCAA's is in the wrestle backs!!! This would be a huge benefit to high school wrestling if it was somehow changed! Should not take that much to make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I totally disagree that the individual state championships, even with full wrestlebacks, proves who the best team is. We've seen teams win with only 4 or 5 wrestlers. That's not a team. Indiana high school wrestling is not college where all the top teams have 9 or 10 of the 10 weights represented AND there are 32 per weight class AND there are full wrestlebacks. In that case, the cream definitely rises to the top much more clearly. If there were a classed tournament and 32 per bracket, I would agree with you; but not as we stand now. (I do agree that wrestlebacks would be nice, obviously, but I will always care much more about this issue for semi-state where guys come from wide-ranging qualities of regionals and are paired so randomly. The disparity between quality of semi-states feeding state are much less, so that the seeding is at least in the realm of reasonable. I've run all the probabilities and the theoretical "best 4" from each weight class at semi-state knock one of the other "best 4" out of state finalist contention almost 60% of the time.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I totally disagree that the individual state championships, even with full wrestlebacks, proves who the best team is. I agree a team dual even is still the best way to determine a team champion. However, if we must go by this type of individual tournament system to determine a team champion I would like to see scoring and advancement points start at sectional and continue through the entire season. In that system at least every team has their entire line up in with a chance to contribute. In my view many of the best "teams" in the state still lose a majority of their wrestlers somewhere at the semi-state level and in this system their contribution would help show more of the "teams" ability. Sure the continuous scoring scenario its not a perfect system either but at least it helps show more depth of a team than just waiting to score whoever make it to the state finals. And for the class folks "team-wise" they could easily develop it into a continued separate scoring for each Class as the tournament progresses too. But, I'll take the team dual tournament (with separate classes like our IHSWCA event) over even this method if it would ever get reinstated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Caller Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I love that the state championships are now determined at one meet. It is similar to college where the best team takes the big prize. I do feel we're a step behind hwne it comes to wrestlebacks. If you lose first round you're out of the tourney hence getting the same point value as someone else. Also if you make the Semi's you're guaranteed 4th place. We've all seen State champs default at Semi-state, take 4th and then ruin a great wrestlers chance of being on the medal stand. I think full wrestlebacks would make State the true State Championships and making every match count that much more. PREACH SIR!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils27 Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Well this is what we have been presented with and cannot go back to the Dual meet State Championships. So let's improve our current set up. Full Wrestlebacks should of been obvious when this was instated. Seeds are gonna happen so just forget about that. People have been trying to get seeds forever, just no logical. You should ask a coach that has been to a Mishawaka seeding meeting. 32 coaches getting after it for their kids haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 if we cant have a team state we will never have wrestlebacks... and to say the best team is crowned state champion is the dumbest thing i have ever heard.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Well this is what we have been presented with and cannot go back to the Dual meet State Championships. So let's improve our current set up. Full Wrestlebacks should of been obvious when this was instated. Seeds are gonna happen so just forget about that. People have been trying to get seeds forever, just no logical. You should ask a coach that has been to a Mishawaka seeding meeting. 32 coaches getting after it for their kids haha. I agree. Stop looking back and move ahead. Improve the current set up with full wrestle backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You realize you're asking for the IHSAA to make this a 3-day event, thus making making them have to reserve Bankers Life for another day, pay an extra day for officals, and kids have to miss an extra day of school. Bobby Cox will not allow that, especially if they are not willing to waive a single weigh in so that we as a state can run our own dual tournament free of any cost of the IHSAA. I agre we have to make the best of what we got but be realistic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Wait, which thread am I in? Oh, for a second I was sure I was in the cliches thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Wait, which thread am I in? Oh, for a second I was sure I was in the cliches thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils27 Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Well, It wouldn't have to be an extra day of school off. Friday, Saturday and Sunday just like Illinois does. Also reserving an extra day of Bankers would just mean more of a cost to us not IHSAA. I'm just trying to bring up some points that could progress our sport, not sound cute on a message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julio Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 IHSAA will never allow sports to take place on Sunday, so that idea is out. You would have to run 3 rounds on Friday to get full wrestle backs in the state finals. If other states use the individual tournament to determine their state champ, why should Indiana not do the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangarrray Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Illinois does not wrestle on Sundays either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 We can do it that way, but it doesn't find the best team... its like deciding who wins a the football title based on the number of all state players on your team...it'd be dumb. Have them wrestle a dual to prove they are the best TEAM in the state not the best small group of individuals. And julio with that logic other states also have team tournaments why cant Indiana do that as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 And julio with that logic other states also have team tournaments why cant Indiana do that as well? Because the coaches made a mockery of it and the IHSWCA wasn't forward enough thinking to do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Well, It wouldn't have to be an extra day of school off. Friday, Saturday and Sunday just like Illinois does. Also reserving an extra day of Bankers would just mean more of a cost to us not IHSAA. I'm just trying to bring up some points that could progress our sport, not sound cute on a message board. wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsfangms Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Out of curiousity, how many times during the team dual format did the team that won the team state title also win the Coach's Trophy? Just looking at the past two years, the Team that won the Coach's Trophy also happened to be the team that won the team state title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 it happens i know Griffith won it one year when they had all their studs. fact being it should be determined by a team competition not how 3-8 kids do in an individual tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils27 Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 That's an argument all in itself. If you have 4 state champion on one team out of 14 weight classes in the entire state you should be the team state champion. They weren't forfeiting the other weights. There were other kids there. I think they even had a state place winner other then the fab 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 then how come when they went to team state that year they didnt win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Oh i should also mention my Jr year 3 state champions 1 3rd 1 4th we won the coaches trophy before the semis even started...lost in Team state quarter finals Also won it my Sr year lost in Finals it happens...so why not actually wrestle to prove who the best is... i know we are not getting it back but to say that this is a better system for a team championship is stupid and lazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsfangms Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I asked a simple question regarding the number of times the team that won the Coach's Trophy also won the Team Dual title. I know twice off the top of my head that they didn't match-up, when Lowell won it 2000 and when Griffith won the Coach's Trophy and finished second at the Dual Team event. I'd like to know how many times it's actually matched up, I'm not trying to determine what is the better system, but actually trying to see if more often than not they are the same winners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 In my short search of the IHSWCA website i could find no listing of past coaches trophy winners... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsfangms Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I appreciate the effort. So you had your two examples from Mishawaka and my two examples makes 4 so far when they did not match-up, during Mater Dei's run I'm confident that each year they won they won both, the past two years it matches, Crown Point won both. So while we aren't going to get the pure team champion, some are hoping for, more often than not the two actual do match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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