No Semi-State Brackets Until Sunday

[Coach Peck]

It's not an Inj. Default, it's a FF.

 

It could be a default if you wanted it to be.

[Y2CJ41]

Up until about 1981 (around then) the draw for the whole Individual tournament was placed in the December Bulletin for all to see.  There were numerous times when coaches defaulted wrestlers in the Finals of the Sectional so as to gain a better draw in the Regional.  One place where this happened more than once was in the Sectionals in Delaware County where I saw both John Smith and Don Patton do this to give their kid a better chance in the Regional and there team a chance of scoring more points.  I do not think either of those guys were cowards or cheats, and I doubt that if this was done this year the coach who did it was a coward or a cheat. 

Back in the olden days how did they not know the person they were trying to avoid didn't get upset or their coach pull the same thing?  Did they send a messenger bird?

 

Here is the way I look at it.  If you are telling a kid to default out to avoid someone, then you are basically telling them you don't believe in them.  I would hate to tell one of my kids I don't think you can win that match.  Right there I would lose a lot of trust and confidence in my coach if I were the wrestler.

 

Secondly, is wrestling really that big of a deal?  In the grand scheme of things will being a state qualifier be the difference between you being a doctor or a construction worker?  Will being a state qualifier increase your GPA so you get into an Ivy League school?  Will being a state qualifier help you get a loan for a house or car?  As a coach doing these things do not make sense to me as in the end, winning is secondary to being a good role model and teaching kids how to be good people and face your opponents and life struggles head on.

[Coach Peck]

 

I guess we can all agree to disagree here, but I believe that forfeiting is a little bit different than injury defaulting. He defaulted after 2 periods.

 

I think you simply have to look at what the IHSAA did a while back about forfeiting in the Team Tournament. They apparently found it unethical enough to prohibit it in the team tournament.

 

 

That decision had nothing to do with ethics.  It was based on the fact that Ray Craft complained that the fans were not getting to see their wrestler eventhough they paid their money to get in the event, and he felt that they should get to see them.

[AJ]

We may have the new "class wrestling" wrestling thread!  Everyone has an opinion and everyone has dug their heels in and stood by their opinion.

 

 

I will say whether it was unethical or not or if the boy was hurt or not, the fact the coach was on the phone and then it happened just made it look bad. 

 

I do hope the young man recovers well because some posts say he was hurt and may not wrestle today or possibly this Saturday.

[Coach Peck]

Back in the olden days how did they not know the person they were trying to avoid didn't get upset or their coach pull the same thing?  Did they send a messenger bird?

You would be surprised at the lengthes people went too to get an edge....actually you probably would not be that surprised because they still go to great lengthes.  (Absolutely does not make it right)

 

Here is the way I look at it.  If you are telling a kid to default out to avoid someone, then you are basically telling them you don't believe in them.  I would hate to tell one of my kids I don't think you can win that match.  Right there I would lose a lot of trust and confidence in my coach if I were the wrestler.

I think you are about right.

 

Secondly, is wrestling really that big of a deal?  In the grand scheme of things will being a state qualifier be the difference between you being a doctor or a construction worker?  Will being a state qualifier increase your GPA so you get into an Ivy League school?  Will being a state qualifier help you get a loan for a house or car?  As a coach doing these things do not make sense to me as in the end, winning is secondary to being a good role model and teaching kids how to be good people and face your opponents and life struggles head on.

I agree...there are lots of things more important than wrestling

[hogleg]

 

It will work itself out this weekend though, who says he will even win his first match?

 

My thoughts exactly.  If this all happened the way it is reported to have on this topic, the best thing that can happen is that the kid who threw the match gets caught in a headlock and stuck  in the first period.

[redriderbbs]

This might sound weird, but I feel bad for the kid who won by the "injury" default.  He has to look at his Sectional champion ribbon everyday, knowing that he didn't earn it.

[CT]

1) In years past, SS packets were to be passed out by the host AD following the conclusion of all wrestling.  That way, no one was to know the SS draw until after all wrestling was done, so that no one could strategically pick their SS draw with 100% confidence.  Occassionally, an AD passed out the draws midway through the Regional, thinking he was just crossing something off his to do list.  Now, that did give those coaches an unfair advantage over coaches at the other Regionals.  So, not making public the SS draw until it is certain all Regionals have completed competition does make sense.

 

2) Duncan was injured vs Kieffer at the New Pal Invite.  Doctor visits & all.  He did not wrestle in the teams' 3 meets between then and the Sectional (Conference & 2 duals).  

 

3) Duncan did not inj def in the semi's or in the 3/4 match to get a place in the opposite bracket from Kieffer.  The final decision to default for 3/4 was not made until after the match to go had been wrestled.  One does not make the decision to default into a Sectional champ lightly.  Thinkaboutit.

 

4) It is for the athlete, his parents and coach to evaluate risk.  Sorry, but opposing coaches, tournament administrators or fans have no play in this.        

 

5) If you want to wrestle your athlete in a match that doesn't have to be wrestled, and take a risk of an injury that could end his season, will you go right ahead.  Knock yourself out.  And btw, what exactly would that prove?  What life lesson would that supposedly teach?  

 

6) And question, what of the coach who sends his kid out to attack his opponent's taped knee?  Unethical or strategic?

 

7) Final thought... Were the Shelbyville coaches, who were the hosts and running the seeding meeting, unethical in manuevering the seeding for the benefit of their 119 & 125 wrestlers?  I think not.  Ticked me off big time, but they were simply working within the rules for the benefit of their athletes.  They did catch the other coaches asleep- totally unsuspecting that it would be anything but Kieffer 1 Duncan 2 at 119 and Wright Kieffer at 125.  I suspect that next year those other coaches will not be caught asleep and that Shelbyville may experience some backlash.  Hey, it's a competition.

 

     

[rebels4life]

Not that it really matters, but Josh did wrestle Seve at New Pal, invite.  Infact they were seeded 1 Fisher 2 Kieffer 3 Duncan. I think the coaching staff at Roncalli does a pretty good job of touching each team in that sectional.  So when you seed a wrestler its pretty clear who should be 1,2, and so on.  

[aoberlin]

I did not read through all ten pages of this, so I don't know if this was brought up.  I, as a coach, always thought brackets were handed out after the tournament.  Then you knew who you drew for the following weekend.  With that said, it is obviously unethical and poor sportsmanship to try to use prior knowledge to your advantage, which NO ONE should be trusted with.  You are not teaching your kids anything but how to work a flawed system.  The flawed system being the brackets coming out to early and having no wrestle backs.  Again this brings up the fact that our tournament needs changed.  It is absolutely ridiculous that our kids should have to suffer year in and year out because IHSAA likes to compare wrestling to basketball. The "There Can Be Only One" mentality needs to go, it's not always about winning the State Championship, for some kids making it to Semi-State or State is the goal. It is always saddening to see a Senior walk off of the mat for the last time after working extremely hard, for who knows how many years, when he knows and you know that he should be going to the next level.  For those of you that say "But I love the ticket round", there will always be a ticket round and you wouldn't love if you got screwed over by it a couple of times.  If our tournament was set up correctly in the first place we would not run into people trying cut corners and cheat. 

[KarlHungus]

I did not read through all ten pages of this, so I don't know if this was brought up.  I, as a coach, always thought brackets were handed out after the tournament.  Then you knew who you drew for the following weekend.  With that said, it is obviously unethical and poor sportsmanship to try to use prior knowledge to your advantage, which NO ONE should be trusted with.  You are not teaching your kids anything but how to work a flawed system.  The flawed system being the brackets coming out to early and having no wrestle backs.  Again this brings up the fact that our tournament needs changed.  It is absolutely ridiculous that our kids should have to suffer year in and year out because IHSAA likes to compare wrestling to basketball. The "There Can Be Only One" mentality needs to go, it's not always about winning the State Championship, for some kids making it to Semi-State or State is the goal. It is always saddening to see a Senior walk off of the mat for the last time after working extremely hard, for who knows how many years, when he knows and you know that he should be going to the next level.  For those of you that say "But I love the ticket round", there will always be a ticket round and you wouldn't love if you got screwed over by it a couple of times.  If our tournament was set up correctly in the first place we would not run into people trying cut corners and cheat. 

 

Good points.  I would add that the chance of our sport getting wrestlebacks or any proposed change lessens every time the IHSAA hears of incidents like this.

[patriotpride]

1) In years past, SS packets were to be passed out by the host AD following the conclusion of all wrestling.  That way, no one was to know the SS draw until after all wrestling was done, so that no one could strategically pick their SS draw with 100% confidence.  Occassionally, an AD passed out the draws midway through the Regional, thinking he was just crossing something off his to do list.  Now, that did give those coaches an unfair advantage over coaches at the other Regionals.  So, not making public the SS draw until it is certain all Regionals have completed competition does make sense.

 

2) Duncan was injured vs Kieffer at the New Pal Invite.  Doctor visits & all.  He did not wrestle in the teams' 3 meets between then and the Sectional (Conference & 2 duals).  

 

3) Duncan did not inj def in the semi's or in the 3/4 match to get a place in the opposite bracket from Kieffer.  The final decision to default for 3/4 was not made until after the match to go had been wrestled.  One does not make the decision to default into a

Sectional champ lightly.  Thinkaboutit.

 

4) It is for the athlete, his parents and coach to evaluate risk.  Sorry, but opposing coaches, tournament administrators or fans have no play in this.        

 

5) If you want to wrestle your athlete in a match that doesn't have to be wrestled, and take a risk of an injury that could end his season, will you go right ahead.  Knock yourself out.  And btw, what exactly would that prove?  What life lesson would that supposedly teach?  

 

6) And question, what of the coach who sends his kid out to attack his opponent's taped knee?  Unethical or strategic?

 

7) Final thought... Were the Shelbyville coaches, who were the hosts and running the seeding meeting, unethical in manuevering the seeding for the benefit of their 119 & 125 wrestlers?  I think not.  Ticked me off big time, but they were simply working within the rules for the benefit of their athletes.  They did catch the other coaches asleep- totally unsuspecting that it would be anything but Kieffer 1 Duncan 2 at 119 and Wright Kieffer at 125.  I suspect that next year those other coaches will not be caught asleep and that Shelbyville may experience some backlash.  Hey, it's a competition.

 

     

 

 

These are the guidelines posted in the IHSAA winter bulletin for seeding meetings:

 

B. Suggested Procedures to Follow at the Sectional Seeding Meeting

1. Equipment and Supplies: Chalkboard, numbers and shaker bottle; suffi cient

chairs and tables; suffi cient blank bracket sheets for each weight class and coach.

Brackets will also be needed for classes in which all schools do not enter.

2. Have the head coach stand, introduce himself and his assistant and tell what

school they represent.

3. Follow the conduct of tournament recommendations in the Offi cial Wrestling

Rules?Rule 10.

4. Each coach is to prepare a complete individual record of his wrestlers to be

seeded including opponents? names, schools and match scores.

5. Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seedings are being decided.

The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the

brackets so that they will not meet each other until the fi nals. Seeding shall be

based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted

advantage.

6. Consideration for determining seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance:

a. Head to head competition; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins

gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times,

then the winner of the last match gets the seed.);

b. Record against common opponents;

c. A returning champion or runner-up in the same weight class;

d. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has

wrestled at least 10 matches;

NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a

wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets

criteria in a, b or c. A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless

he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the

bracket.

7. A seeded contestant shall have the same opportunity to draw for a bye as other

 

I think they really overlooked number  5  and went on.

 

[theckman]

Up until about 1981 (around then) the draw for the whole Individual tournament was placed in the December Bulletin for all to see.  There were numerous times when coaches defaulted wrestlers in the Finals of the Sectional so as to gain a better draw in the Regional.  One place where this happened more than once was in the Sectionals in Delaware County where I saw both John Smith and Don Patton do this to give their kid a better chance in the Regional and there team a chance of scoring more points.  I do not think either of those guys were cowards or cheats, and I doubt that if this was done this year the coach who did it was a coward or a cheat. 

 

I was going to bring this up but Coach Peck beat me to it. 

 

Back in the previous format, when the sectionals were smaller and each could choose their own time schedule, there was one sectional that always chose the late start.  The coaches would know the results of the other sectionals before their finals started.  Attending the finals of that sectional, I saw more than one wrestler take a dive and lose a match in order to set up a more favorable draw at the regionals.  I remember one case where it happened that the wrestler did get 2nd in the regional but it screwed him in his draw for semistate.  The wrestler he "lost" to in the sectional ended up 3rd in the regional and got a better draw at the semistate, qualifying for state.

[Walter Sobchak]

It's league play smokey..... sorry but you were OVER THE LINE....MARK IT ZERO or you are entering a world of PAIN!!!  

 

It was not ethical for me to pull my piece out at the lanes, but hey it got us into the next round!!  Just wish those guys at the league office wouldn't have scheduled it for Saturday.... I DONT ROLL ON SHABBAS!!

 

As the DUDE said, I was not wrong, but I was an @ss#$le.....  maybe the kid is a fragile like smokey?  

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

I was going to bring this up but Coach Peck beat me to it.  

 

Back in the previous format, when the sectionals were smaller and each could choose their own time schedule, there was one sectional that always chose the late start.  The coaches would know the results of the other sectionals before their finals started.   Attending the finals of that sectional, I saw more than one wrestler take a dive and lose a match in order to set up a more favorable draw at the regionals.  I remember one case where it happened that the wrestler did get 2nd in the regional but it screwed him in his draw for semistate.  The wrestler he "lost" to in the sectional ended up 3rd in the regional and got a better draw at the semistate, qualifying for state.

Since it was done in that past, does it make it right all of a sudden?

[theckman]

Since it was done in that past, does it make it right all of a sudden?

 

Didn't say it was right, now, did I.  Just making an observation and a comment.  This is a DISCUSSION board, right?

[KarlHungus]

Since it was done in that past, does it make it right all of a sudden?

 

not ethical then and not ethical now

[theckman]

not ethical then and not ethical now

My sentiments exactly. 

I loved it when the kid who took a dive screwed himself out of a trip to state.

[Walter Sobchak]

Karl..... it what you and Jackie do ethical????... you treat objects like they are women ...MAN....

 

 

[theckman]

Karl..... it what you and Jackie do ethical????... you treat objects like they are women ...MAN....

 

 

 

That's the 2nd post of yours where I have no clue what it means.  It's hell to be over the hill (I'm assuming that's why I don't understand it).

[Walter Sobchak]

eckman... you are out of your element... you must be an achiever to understand my logic...

 

 

[NickS]

We may have the new "class wrestling" wrestling thread!  Everyone has an opinion and everyone has dug their heels in and stood by their opinion.

 

 

I will say whether it was unethical or not or if the boy was hurt or not, the fact the coach was on the phone and then it happened just made it look bad. 

 

I do hope the young man recovers well because some posts say he was hurt and may not wrestle today or possibly this Saturday.

 

If the kid is out for Saturday, then it definitely changes how the incident will be perceived, not so much for tonight though in my mind.

[frigginhurts]

agree with wcs145

[awood1]

Cowardly but more gray area.

 

It's not often that I feel compelled to deliver lessons in parenting to anyone, but in this case it seems worth repeating.  Since my kids were old enough to carry on a conversation I have told them, "There will always be choices in your life and you will have to face the outcome of those choices.  Mom and I will do our best to help you and guide you to make the right choices along the way, but truth is you will be alone more often then not when those choices ar made.  When that time comes, you WILL know the right answer.  Whether or not you CHOOSE to make the right choice is a question of whether or not you choose to listen to your heart."

 

I don't think there is a man among us that can say in his heart of hearts that losing on purpose for an easier route to advancement is EVER the right choice.  I could be wrong, but the voice is pretty clear when I ask myself that question.

[theckman]

eckman... you are out of your element... you must be an achiever to understand my logic...

 

 

 

lol....I'm out of my element in lots of places, but not when discussing wrestling.  And if you're second statement is true, I'll stay not being an "achiever" (whatever that means).