So much for small teams not being able to compete

[ENoblewrestling]

Galagore I agree whole heartedly that there are many reasons, and goals that are found in high school atheletics, I just dont see how classing a tournament that has the goal of finding the best individual would help to push goals like, participation, sportsmanship, any more than a one class tournament. 

[Y2CJ41]

A class system in an Individual sport is pointless. I live and coach in Michigan now, and you are right not to many kids will mention what class they are, but everyone I talk too wishes there class system was more like Indiana.

Do kids toss their medals in the trash after they win or are they proud of their accomplishments?  

 

Are kids learning about hard work, dedication, sportsmanship and all that other fun stuff in a classed system?

 

[Y2CJ41]

Galagore I agree whole heartedly that there are many reasons, and goals that are found in high school atheletics, I just dont see how classing a tournament that has the goal of finding the best individual would help to push goals like, participation, sportsmanship, any more than a one class tournament. 

What is the goal of high school athletics in your opinion?

A. Find out who the best is

B. Promote sportsmanship, hard work, dedication, etc.

[ENoblewrestling]

The goal of high school atheletics is to promote sportsmanship, hard work, dedication, etc.

Just wondering, do you feel that teaching kids that life can be tough, and that you sometimes have to deal with the hand that is dealt is part of that "etc" category of what we are teaching kids?

 

The goal of a tournament, no matter if it is the State Finals or Woodlan Initational, is to find out who the best is, its why they keep score, why people get eliminated, and were the hard work and dedication pays off.

[IUBjj171]

Wrestling is individual. Swimming is individual. Track is individual. You can argue all day that team wise it makes sense to have it classed. But individually if you want to be better you have to push yourself. Get yourself involved in camps and AUU teams and such.

 

Caleb schmitt was a dual sport athlete. He found time to do camps and work out in his basement on his own time when he wasnt playing soccer. A lot of castle guys do Chertow camps over the summer during moratorium and then switch back to football. Castle's 160, 189, 215, 285 started on the varsity football team that went to regionals. Some of castles wrestlers work out on their own after practice. Some have mats in their basements. They can focus on wrestling year round. THe welch brothers are ranked high and undefeated yet most of their spring and summer is dedicated to baseball.

 

Its about the work that you put in when you can and the dedication and resolve that YOU have. Not how big your school is. If you can push yourself to wrestle your best it doesnt matter if you are 1A or 5A. Its how you deal with competition.

 

When I lost i didnt say it was because he had better coaching (not possible) or his practice facilities were better. It was because he wrestled harder, smarter, or had better technique than me. And i would take myself back into the room and work harder on what i did wrong. Thats what kids can take out of a classless wrestling system.

 

There are two words that appear in bright gold in castles wrestling room: NO EXCUSES. And i firmly stick by that today with everything i do as an individual. If i do something right its because i prepared for it. If i dont do well on a test i say its because i didnt study the right material. Not well the test was biased because it focused more on chapter 5 and didnt focus more on chapter 2 and 3. And im glad Coach Harmon taught me that because i believe i am a better person because of it.

 

So thanks coach for teaching me that and pounding it into my head

 

William Gaylord

 

 

[LpBrown90]

Do kids toss their medals in the trash after they win or are they proud of their accomplishments?  

 

Are kids learning about hard work, dedication, sportsmanship and all that other fun stuff in a classed system?

 

No they don't, but lets use some good old commen sense here. In a class system you are "Not A State Champion", You are basically just a winner of another big tournament. Great accomplishment? Yes! State Champion in youre weight class" No". I don't have a problem with a class system for a team format but Individual state it is really hard to follow and quite dumb.

[IUBjj171]

It seems we have three groups of people

 

CLASS

UNCLASSED

HYBRID (team state only)

 

More and more people keep offering the opinion of only changing team state and less people are at the extremes

 

Why must individual change too? Y2 is it imperative that individual change also or would you be happy just to see the team section change

[Y2CJ41]

No they don't, but lets use some good old commen sense here. In a class system you are "Not A State Champion", You are basically just a winner of another big tournament. Great accomplishment? Yes! State Champion in youre weight class" No". I don't have a problem with a class system for a team format but Individual state it is really hard to follow and quite dumb.

What do the school administers call those kids that win individual championships in Michigan? I am curious how they are recognized by their schools, newspapers, friends and family.  Are they considered state champions or just a tournament champion?

[Y2CJ41]

It seems we have three groups of people

 

CLASS

UNCLASSED

HYBRID (team state only)

 

More and more people keep offering the opinion of only changing team state and less people are at the extremes

 

Why must individual change too? Y2 is it imperative that individual change also or would you be happy just to see the team section change

The stats of the past 11 years have shown a great disparity at the individual state finals in the terms of small school kids and big school kids represented.  On top of that if you can admit that a team is affected by numbers to me the individual is affected by numbers. 

[pirates rule]

this is getting old fast.

[IUBjj171]

The stats of the past 11 years have shown a great disparity at the individual state finals in the terms of small school kids and big school kids represented.  On top of that if you can admit that a team is affected by numbers to me the individual is affected by numbers. 

There are good kids from small programs like indian creek, princeton and others that dont have full teams yet their kids excel! Castle is lucky if they have a full JV. After this year they are going to have  to find some kids to fill the holes that will be left at 189 215 and 285 because im not sure any of those classes have JV. Its not numbers in individual. ITs about the athlete pushing themselves and making themselves excel. Are you saying a kid cant win state because his school isnt over 600? Thats bs! its not an underdog story if drake stein or jeff weiss win state because they are really that good! But say princeton's football team comes out and beats warren central, then it is because its a team effort of a school against another almost 4 times its size

[Silence Dogood]

The stats of the past 11 years have shown a great disparity at the individual state finals in the terms of small school kids and big school kids represented.  On top of that if you can admit that a team is affected by numbers to me the individual is affected by numbers. 

 

I still don't understand how you feel this is the case.  Your statistics show that big schools have 75% of the students and have 75% of the state qualifiers.  Do you expect that despite having 75% of the students, big schools would have only 50% of the wrestling talent?  Why would you expect or hope for the results to be different for the individual tournament?  

 

As for the team being affected and not the individual - it is possible for one to hold the position that the team is affected based on the talent distribution (big schools have more numbers and it's easier for them to fill the roster), but that the individual is not.

 

 

[cewrestlingfan]

I still don't understand how you feel this is the case.  Your statistics show that big schools have 75% of the students and have 75% of the state qualifiers.  Do you expect that despite having 75% of the students, big schools would have only 50% of the wrestling talent?  Why would you expect or hope for the results to be different for the individual tournament?  

 

As for the team being affected and not the individual - it is possible for one to hold the position that the team is affected based on the talent distribution (big schools have more numbers and it's easier for them to fill the roster), but that the individual is not.

 

 

 

I agree that this is the correct logic.

[KarlHungus]

The goal of high school atheletics is to promote sportsmanship, hard work, dedication, etc.

Just wondering, do you feel that teaching kids that life can be tough, and that you sometimes have to deal with the hand that is dealt is part of that "etc" category of what we are teaching kids?

 

The goal of a tournament, no matter if it is the State Finals or Woodlan Initational, is to find out who the best is, its why they keep score, why people get eliminated, and were the hard work and dedication pays off.

 

They would still be learning the lessons that life is tough and you have to deal with what is dealt if there was a class tournament.  It happens in most of the other states.  They just would get to compete in a substantially more equitable system like their peers in other sports and other states.

[chambers]

There are good kids from small programs like indian creek, princeton and others that dont have full teams yet their kids excel! Castle is lucky if they have a full JV. After this year they are going to have  to find some kids to fill the holes that will be left at 189 215 and 285 because im not sure any of those classes have JV. Its not numbers in individual. ITs about the athlete pushing themselves and making themselves excel. Are you saying a kid cant win state because his school isnt over 600? Thats bs! its not an underdog story if drake stein or jeff weiss win state because they are really that good! But say princeton's football team comes out and beats warren central, then it is because its a team effort of a school against another almost 4 times its size

 

Princeton is not really a small school. Neither is Heritage Hills. Both are 3A schools in the 5 class football and 3A in the sports are are divided in 4 classes.

[Y2CJ41]

I still don't understand how you feel this is the case.  Your statistics show that big schools have 75% of the students and have 75% of the state qualifiers.  Do you expect that despite having 75% of the students, big schools would have only 50% of the wrestling talent?  Why would you expect or hope for the results to be different for the individual tournament?  

 

As for the team being affected and not the individual - it is possible for one to hold the position that the team is affected based on the talent distribution (big schools have more numbers and it's easier for them to fill the roster), but that the individual is not.

 

 

Because 75% of the participants in the state tournament aren't from big schools, it is 50% of the participants.

[KarlHungus]

I still don't understand how you feel this is the case.  Your statistics show that big schools have 75% of the students and have 75% of the state qualifiers.  Do you expect that despite having 75% of the students, big schools would have only 50% of the wrestling talent?  Why would you expect or hope for the results to be different for the individual tournament? 

 

As for the team being affected and not the individual - it is possible for one to hold the position that the team is affected based on the talent distribution (big schools have more numbers and it's easier for them to fill the roster), but that the individual is not.

 

 

 

I suppose you could believe that the team is affected based on enrollment but the individual is not in theory.  But in doing so, you would be discounting the advantages of better facilities, more coaches, better practice partners, usually better-in season compeition, and a higher likelyhood of being able to specialize that come with many larger programs and very few small school programs.

[Y2CJ41]

The goal of high school atheletics is to promote sportsmanship, hard work, dedication, etc.

Just wondering, do you feel that teaching kids that life can be tough, and that you sometimes have to deal with the hand that is dealt is part of that "etc" category of what we are teaching kids?

 

The goal of a tournament, no matter if it is the State Finals or Woodlan Initational, is to find out who the best is, its why they keep score, why people get eliminated, and were the hard work and dedication pays off.

Didn't the football team learn some life lessons this year?

 

Kids learn that life isn't fair in other ways than just having a single class wrestling tournament. They learn its not fair when a ref screws you out of a takedown.  They learn its not fair when you get a crappy draw at semi-state.  They learn its not fair when their practice partner gets injured.  They learn its not fair when their coach up and leaves for another school.  There are many areas where a kid learns those lessons.  Why not make one thing a little more fair and let them be able to control more of what is not fair.

[Silence Dogood]

Because 75% of the participants in the state tournament aren't from big schools, it is 50% of the participants.

 

But the small schools have fewer talented indivduals to start with.  They might have the same number of sectional entrants, but they don't have the same initial talent distribution.

 

Let's compare it to track. In the 100m dash, each school can enter 2 individuals at sectional. If we broke it down into same two categories you have for wrestling, big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students.  Since the small schools and big schools would have the same number of participants entered into the sectional, would expect them to have the same number of state qualifiers? Or would you expect big schools to have closer to 75% of the state qualifiers since they are presumably starting with 75% of the individuals with the natural talent to be state qualifiers.  

 

Again, I concede that this supports the argument  for classing the team tournament, but fail to see how it demonstrates any unfairness as far as the individual tournament is concerned.

[Y2CJ41]

But the small schools have fewer talented indivduals to start with.  They might have the same number of sectional entrants, but they don't have the same initial talent distribution.

 

Let's compare it to track. In the 100m dash, each school can enter 2 individuals at sectional. If we broke it down into same two categories you have for wrestling, big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students.  Since the small schools and big schools would have the same number of participants entered into the sectional, would expect them to have the same number of state qualifiers? Or would you expect big schools to have closer to 75% of the state qualifiers since they are presumably starting with 75% of the individuals with the natural talent to be state qualifiers. 

 

Again, I concede that this supports the argument  for classing the team tournament, but fail to see how it demonstrates any unfairness as far as the individual tournament is concerned.

In my mind a single class system states that everyone is equal no matter what.

 

In my mind if that is true, each individual that steps foot on the track or wrestling mat has an equal shot at making it to the state finals.  Each team is only allotted a given number of entries, so therefore each has the same shot at going to state.  Therefore, each team should theoretically have the same number of state qualifiers.

[KarlHungus]

But the small schools have fewer talented indivduals to start with.  They might have the same number of sectional entrants, but they don't have the same initial talent distribution.

 

Let's compare it to track. In the 100m dash, each school can enter 2 individuals at sectional. If we broke it down into same two categories you have for wrestling, big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students.  Since the small schools and big schools would have the same number of participants entered into the sectional, would expect them to have the same number of state qualifiers? Or would you expect big schools to have closer to 75% of the state qualifiers since they are presumably starting with 75% of the individuals with the natural talent to be state qualifiers. 

 

Again, I concede that this supports the argument  for classing the team tournament, but fail to see how it demonstrates any unfairness as far as the individual tournament is concerned.

 

It has long been held by many single class advocates that the size of school has nothing to do with the amount of talent.  It is all on how hard you work etc.  IF that was the case, then 50% of finalists should come from small schools.  I for one, do not believe that is the case.

[FormerHornet]

I am fairly pleased with our current system, however, I do believe that we should possess full wrestle backs.  Not true 2nd but true 3rd.  On top of that I do believe duck_and_run was out of line calling Y2 liberal... It is one thing to disagree with an individual in an adult manner it is another to attack his character in order to attempt prove your point.  

[cewrestlingfan]

I suppose you could believe that the team is affected based on enrollment but the individual is not in theory.  But in doing so, you would be discounting the advantages of better facilities, more coaches, better practice partners, usually better-in season compeition, and a higher likelyhood of being able to specialize that come with many larger programs and very few small school programs.

 

1. Many larger school facilities are not all that great.

2. Most schools that have multiple additional coaches are unpaid volunteers.

3. Good wrestlers will make thier practice partners better.

4. Schools can enter events with better in season competion no matter thier size.

5. Kids at large schools are at a disadvantage because it is much more difficult to excel in multiple sports.

[Silence Dogood]

I suppose you could believe that the team is affected based on enrollment but the individual is not in theory.  But in doing so, you would be discounting the advantages of better facilities, more coaches, better practice partners, usually better-in season compeition, and a higher likelyhood of being able to specialize that come with many larger programs and very few small school programs.

 

Those are good arguments. But the statistics cited by Y2  do not support the position that on the whole a big school individual has net advantage over a small school individual.  Big schools have 75% of the students and presumably 75% of the naturally talented wrestlers.  If there was a net advantage to being an individual from a big school, one would expect then that big schools would have more than 75% of the individual state qualifiers.  Why is this not the case? Do some small schools have certain advantages that they are utilizing and some big schools either not have these advantages, aren't utilizing them, or have disadvantages that are equalizing the advantages?

[Silence Dogood]

In my mind a single class system states that everyone is equal no matter what.

 

In my mind if that is true, each individual that steps foot on the track or wrestling mat has an equal shot at making it to the state finals.  Each team is only allotted a given number of entries, so therefore each has the same shot at going to state.  Therefore, each team should theoretically have the same number of state qualifiers.

 

They do have an equal opportunity, but some people are just faster or naturally more talented than others to begin with.  It's not a coin flipping contest - individual charecteristics/talents have to be factored in.  Statistics would presumably predict that a group with 75% of the people would have 75% of the natural talent.  Why are you then surprised that they have 75% of the state qualifiers?