So much for small teams not being able to compete

[duck_and_run]

2.  I am saying by what Y2 has said he is out for his teams personal gains.

question to Y2- "Do you think your team deserves a state title?" 

Y2 quote:I believe that my kids work just as hard as the football, baseball, basketball and volleyball teams in our school, if not harder.  I feel we have a lot better team than those teams, yet they get to compete on a level playing field against schools their own size.  I would like the kids to have that same opportunity in wrestling.  According to the Genius Ratings we are the 31 out of 309 best school in the state in wrestling.  Our boys basketball team is ranked 309 out of 416 in the state and have a shot at winning sectional.  Does that seem fair to you?  It surely doesn't to me.

 

Notice his initial arguement he tries to act like class wrestling is to blame for Garrett's lack of success.  The fact is they are just establishing there program and Garrett has lost in sectionals the past two seasons to Whitko.  Whitcko is a 2a school and would be in there sectionals regaurdless of class.  He blames class wrestling for stuff that is not class wrestlings fault.

 

y2s later post

 

As a matter of fact our boy's basketball sectional is a joke, no argument there.  But they still get a trophy for winning and get the big celebration for winning.  They get t-shirts, the coaches and kids get big write-ups in the paper and all that fun stuff.  The trophy they get says sectional champions on it, it doesn't say "joke sectional champions."  Of course, we get a nice pat on the back from the people that know we are the best sports team in the school saying "good job" though.  That should be enough for the kids to make things equal right?

 

Basically even though he is being beat by small schools he wants aall the recognition that his basketball program has.  He wants something for nothing.  Typical Liberal!

[duck_and_run]

3.  y2 ducking facts

y2 quote-

classing sports means that more kids get to experience athletics

So his claim is that classing the sport of wrestling will get more individuals involved because of more team and individual success.  Three times I have debated this with facts from indiana

My Quote-

Ok here is my problem I just did a study with all the sectionals.  By your own arguments class wrestling would produce better wrestling because of more individual accomplishments.  Why do we have sectionals where the best team are ranked 109, 95, 85, and 71.  You would think that the individual achievements in the sectionals would make wrestlers flock to these programs but it hasn't happened.  Your theory is flat out shot down.  The only thing that can fix wrestling in these areas are dedicated individuals who want to see success with their wrestling programs. 

The study was done with Y2's genius rankings which he used for his debate on how his team didn't get individual recognition.

y2s response-

Wow, that is a great study, you should go into research full time.

I guess nothing is a fact unless he looks it up.  There were two seperate times I posted the same thing and he blew it off everytime.  The last one leading to him saying he was going to ban me from the site.  Trying to silence the opposition anyway he can.

[duck_and_run]

y2 lies again

Wow, one year in which small schools "dominate' the fort wayne semi-state and you want to call off all notions of class wrestling?  When these 2A schools routinely make it to the final eight, come talk to me.

 

In the late 1990's and early 2000's Matre Dei dominated the state.  With several state titles and maybe the best team in Indiana history they set the tone for small schools in indiana.  Y2 will argue that they are private so they are at a distinct advantage, but the truth of the matter is they had sever Matre Dei family names rolling thru at the time of there titles.  If Matre Dei does not push you into thinking small schools can comepete lets go to back to the Jay county team regional.  This regional to the best of my knowledge has not been won by a team bigger then 1000's students.  If we compare Garrett to these teams it actually becomes very close.  Garret has 572 students, Yorktown has 708, and Bellmont has 838 respectivly.  These may look like big differences but if we look closer they are not.   Yorktown has an extra 16.5 males per grade to choose from, and belmont has arround 35 extra males per grade.  The other difference is that Y2 forgets to look at, is the fact that Garrett does not have a swimming program while both Bellmont and Yorktown do.  It is fair to say that an extra 5 male students per class will swim and at least half of the rest will not play a winter sport.  That leaves an extra 5.5 males per class for Yorktown to go after and an extra 15 for Belmont.  That doesn't even take into account that the basketball program would be going after the extra students as well.  Basically the differences between Garrett and Yorktown are non existent and for Bellmont the differences are marginal.  These two teams along with AC(2 a)  have won the team regional for decades.  They have not only won team regional but they have also been competitive at the state team tournement as well.

[awood1]

I  didn't actually feel like ramblong through the previous 9 pages of the same old same old, but living in CA for a few years now I feel like sharing that experience is worth the typing.

 

California has classes for TEAM AND THE FIRST ROUND OF INDIVIDUAL ONLY!!  AND they only do that 1 ROUND!  Basically all of the conference champs within a section (about as many schools as the entire state of IN, there are 10 sections total in CA)  So as far as "class" wrestling goes in CA, its ONLY for teams and the 1st Rd. of the individual tnmt.

 

In the individual tnmt., they have wrestlebacks at EVERY LEVEL!!  In the 1st Round of the individual tnmt  They call them Divisions (i.e. Each Division (class) has a "local" tnmt. against schools of similar size) and a # of wrestlers from schools of similar size all advance to Masters.  They have 32 entries at Masters, all from the same Section (6 each from D1 North and D1 South, 5 each from D2, D3, D4 and D5)  Then a certain # of wrestlers from each Sections Masters advance to State for a 40 man bracket.  Of course each step along the way has full wrestle backs.

 

The State tournament is comprised of 1146 matches over 2 days.  The highest placing kid from the local HS last year won his 1st 2, then lost 1, then won 4, lost 1 (to the same guy he lost to before) and won his final match for 5th place.  He was a Senior and went on to Senior Nationals.....and placed 5th there also!

 

I guess what I am seeing is that "class" wrestling does exist in CA, but no kid has ever said I am a _____ Division State Champion, runner-up or placer.  When you are State Champ in CA, you are the best in the state without question.

[duck_and_run]

Over the past 4 post I have proven I should not be thrown off the site.  Allthough Y2 has not directly stated that class wrestling is the solution for everything, he has implied it several times.  He has implied that the team he helps out with is at a disadvantage all bigger schools and the only way to fix that is to class the sport.  I on the other had have disproven all his so called facts with logic and reason.  I have proven that he thinks like a Liberal, he dodges facts from the same information he uses, he thinks Garrett is entitiled to something, and last but not least the disadvantage that Garrett has compared to a school like Yorktown or Bellmont is non existent.

 

Last thing Y2's liberal checklist

    1.  Sense of entitlement:  CHECK

    2.  Thinks everything is unfair:  CHECK

    3.  Tries to push an agenda even though the people don't want it:  CHECK

    4.  Can not comprehend facts that disprove his own:  CHECK

    5.  Thinks everyone deserves trophys just for trying:  CHECK

Conservatives remember

when your not RED your Y2BLUE

[KarlHungus]

It's Whitko

[KarlHungus]

Ok lets start this thing let me get my whole arguement out.

1.  Lets be generous and say that the team portion needs to be classed.  Why would the individual tournement be unfair to small school individuals. 

Y2 said:

a state qualifier if you are from a big school, you have a 3X greater chance of making it to state.

 

This statment maybe statistacally true, but what does it show.  To me it shows that some big schools just have better wrestling programs in place.  If you are to believe Y2's liberal ideas you are saying that at birth a wrestler born in a big school district is better then a wrestler born in a small school district.  By voting to class the individual portion of the tournement you are also saying there is no way to overcome this.  Basically you are beat before you start. 

 

 

Y2 - "Statistics show"

 

manvswild - "To me it shows"

 

Winner - Y2

[KarlHungus]

3.  y2 ducking facts

y2 quote-

classing sports means that more kids get to experience athletics

So his claim is that classing the sport of wrestling will get more individuals involved because of more team and individual success.  Three times I have debated this with facts from indiana

My Quote-

Ok here is my problem I just did a study with all the sectionals.  By your own arguments class wrestling would produce better wrestling because of more individual accomplishments.  Why do we have sectionals where the best team are ranked 109, 95, 85, and 71.  You would think that the individual achievements in the sectionals would make wrestlers flock to these programs but it hasn't happened.  Your theory is flat out shot down.  The only thing that can fix wrestling in these areas are dedicated individuals who want to see success with their wrestling programs. 

The study was done with Y2's genius rankings which he used for his debate on how his team didn't get individual recognition.

y2s response-

Wow, that is a great study, you should go into research full time.

I guess nothing is a fact unless he looks it up.  There were two seperate times I posted the same thing and he blew it off everytime.  The last one leading to him saying he was going to ban me from the site.  Trying to silence the opposition anyway he can.

 

Y2 - Classing wrestling would give a chance to build programs - Can't prove because we haven't gone to class to compare but has appeared to happen in Oregon.

 

manvswild - A "study" of sectionals with rankings.  Does not address size or health of programs involved so is therefore INVALID to Y2's original post and rightly blown off as incomprehensible.

 

winner - Y2

[KarlHungus]

2.  I am saying by what Y2 has said he is out for his teams personal gains.

question to Y2- "Do you think your team deserves a state title?" 

Y2 quote:I believe that my kids work just as hard as the football, baseball, basketball and volleyball teams in our school, if not harder.  I feel we have a lot better team than those teams, yet they get to compete on a level playing field against schools their own size.  I would like the kids to have that same opportunity in wrestling.  According to the Genius Ratings we are the 31 out of 309 best school in the state in wrestling.  Our boys basketball team is ranked 309 out of 416 in the state and have a shot at winning sectional.  Does that seem fair to you?  It surely doesn't to me.

 

Notice his initial arguement he tries to act like class wrestling is to blame for Garrett's lack of success.  The fact is they are just establishing there program and Garrett has lost in sectionals the past two seasons to Whitko.  Whitcko is a 2a school and would be in there sectionals regaurdless of class.  He blames class wrestling for stuff that is not class wrestlings fault.

 

y2s later post

 

As a matter of fact our boy's basketball sectional is a joke, no argument there.  But they still get a trophy for winning and get the big celebration for winning.  They get t-shirts, the coaches and kids get big write-ups in the paper and all that fun stuff.  The trophy they get says sectional champions on it, it doesn't say "joke sectional champions."  Of course, we get a nice pat on the back from the people that know we are the best sports team in the school saying "good job" though.  That should be enough for the kids to make things equal right?

 

Basically even though he is being beat by small schools he wants aall the recognition that his basketball program has.  He wants something for nothing.  Typical Liberal!

 

Y2 - Has said he has no problem competing with Whitko numerous times.  He has only said he wants the OPPORTUNITITY to compete on a level playing field like other sports.

 

manvswild - Accuses Y2 of only looking for personal glory.  Doesn't add up.

 

winner - Y2

[KarlHungus]

y2 lies again

Wow, one year in which small schools "dominate' the fort wayne semi-state and you want to call off all notions of class wrestling?  When these 2A schools routinely make it to the final eight, come talk to me.

 

In the late 1990's and early 2000's Matre Dei dominated the state.  With several state titles and maybe the best team in Indiana history they set the tone for small schools in indiana.  Y2 will argue that they are private so they are at a distinct advantage, but the truth of the matter is they had sever Matre Dei family names rolling thru at the time of there titles.  If Matre Dei does not push you into thinking small schools can comepete lets go to back to the Jay county team regional.  This regional to the best of my knowledge has not been won by a team bigger then 1000's students.  If we compare Garrett to these teams it actually becomes very close.  Garret has 572 students, Yorktown has 708, and Bellmont has 838 respectivly.  These may look like big differences but if we look closer they are not.  Yorktown has an extra 16.5 males per grade to choose from, and belmont has arround 35 extra males per grade.  The other difference is that Y2 forgets to look at, is the fact that Garrett does not have a swimming program while both Bellmont and Yorktown do.  It is fair to say that an extra 5 male students per class will swim and at least half of the rest will not play a winter sport.  That leaves an extra 5.5 males per class for Yorktown to go after and an extra 15 for Belmont.  That doesn't even take into account that the basketball program would be going after the extra students as well.  Basically the differences between Garrett and Yorktown are non existent and for Bellmont the differences are marginal.  These two teams along with AC(2 a)  have won the team regional for decades.  They have not only won team regional but they have also been competitive at the state team tournement as well.

 

Y2 - "When 2A schools from Fort Wayne semi-state routinely make the final 8, come talk to me."

 

manvswild - Uses Mater Dei from EVANSVILLE to try to debunk.  Tries to say the parochial Mater Dei does not have an advantage because the same family names are on roster???????  Uses two schools that are 3A.  Thats 3A, and not 2A to defend his point. 

 

winner- Y2

[KarlHungus]

Duck:

 

The more you type the stronger the argument for class wrestling becomes.  Peck away.

[Y2CJ41]

y2 lies again

Wow, one year in which small schools "dominate' the fort wayne semi-state and you want to call off all notions of class wrestling?  When these 2A schools routinely make it to the final eight, come talk to me.

 

In the late 1990's and early 2000's Matre Dei dominated the state.  With several state titles and maybe the best team in Indiana history they set the tone for small schools in indiana.  Y2 will argue that they are private so they are at a distinct advantage, but the truth of the matter is they had sever Matre Dei family names rolling thru at the time of there titles.  If Matre Dei does not push you into thinking small schools can comepete lets go to back to the Jay county team regional.  This regional to the best of my knowledge has not been won by a team bigger then 1000's students.  If we compare Garrett to these teams it actually becomes very close.  Garret has 572 students, Yorktown has 708, and Bellmont has 838 respectivly.  These may look like big differences but if we look closer they are not.   Yorktown has an extra 16.5 males per grade to choose from, and belmont has arround 35 extra males per grade.  The other difference is that Y2 forgets to look at, is the fact that Garrett does not have a swimming program while both Bellmont and Yorktown do.  It is fair to say that an extra 5 male students per class will swim and at least half of the rest will not play a winter sport.  That leaves an extra 5.5 males per class for Yorktown to go after and an extra 15 for Belmont.  That doesn't even take into account that the basketball program would be going after the extra students as well.  Basically the differences between Garrett and Yorktown are non existent and for Bellmont the differences are marginal.  These two teams along with AC(2 a)  have won the team regional for decades.  They have not only won team regional but they have also been competitive at the state team tournement as well.

Lets count the mistakes in this post

1. Matre Dei is spelled Mater Dei

2. Garret is spelled with two t's

3. There is no such thing as the Jay County Team Regional

4. Adams Central has never won a team regional, they have won one regional in the individual format.

5. Adams Central is a 1A team

6. Adams Central has not been competitive in the team state tournament.  They have only won three sectionals in the history of their program.  The last time was 1990, the team tournament wasn't introduced until the mid-1990's. 

 

Not too bad, you are averaging about one mistake per sentence.

[hogleg]

Lets count the mistakes in this post

1. Matre Dei is spelled Mater Dei

2. Garret is spelled with two t's

3. There is no such thing as the Jay County Team Regional

4. Adams Central has never won a team regional, they have won one regional in the individual format.

5. Adams Central is a 1A team

6. Adams Central has not been competitive in the team state tournament.  They have only won three sectionals in the history of their program.  The last time was 1990, the team tournament wasn't introduced until the mid-1990's. 

 

Not too bad, you are averaging about one mistake per sentence.

 

It's like a Michael Moore documentary.

[Boot]

Over the past 4 post I have proven I should not be thrown off the site.  Allthough Y2 has not directly stated that class wrestling is the solution for everything, he has implied it several times.  He has implied that the team he helps out with is at a disadvantage all bigger schools and the only way to fix that is to class the sport.  I on the other had have disproven all his so called facts with logic and reason.  I have proven that he thinks like a Liberal, he dodges facts from the same information he uses, he thinks Garrett is entitiled to something, and last but not least the disadvantage that Garrett has compared to a school like Yorktown or Bellmont is non existent.

 

Last thing Y2's liberal checklist

    1.  Sense of entitlement:  CHECK

    2.  Thinks everything is unfair:  CHECK

    3.  Tries to push an agenda even though the people don't want it:  CHECK

    4.  Can not comprehend facts that disprove his own:  CHECK

    5.  Thinks everyone deserves trophys just for trying:  CHECK

Conservatives remember

when your not RED your Y2BLUE

 

When did wrestling become political? This is a wrestling forum, leave your political views at the door. The more you talk the more you prove the stereotype of republicans as closed minded and afraid of change.

[Galagore]

Hopefully everyone realizes that once wrestling is classed, this debate will cease.  Maybe it will last another season, but 5 years later no one will even think about whether or not it should be classed.  No one talks anymore about whether or not basketball should be classed.  It's just reality. 

[ENoblewrestling]

Yeah but who said it is going to ever be classed.  As a coach I have been to all of the IHSWCA clinics over the past three years and have never heard it brought up as an option by the IHSWCA leadership.  I also feel that it is not even close to being a clear cut issue for the coaches.  It will be very interesting to see how the results of the surveys taken at sectional come out, but would bet that the classed indivdual tournament will not be the favored opionion, and if it is, it will at least be an extremely close vote.

There are alot of different opinions on this subject on this board, and more importantly held by coaches all across the state.  I think that all of them are valide, and that coaches want what they feel is best for their kids, and the sport.  

I myself coach at a small school and have seen some of our top guys fall out of the tournament early, if it was classed we would have had a few extra kids make it to state, but in my opionion they had great seasons regaurdless, and by making it to the round to go in semi-state showed that they on an individual basis could contend with anybody in the state.  We did not need to go against small school kids, we had 5 seniors last year that could compete with anybody, and this year we have a group of kids that can do the same, they may not get to state or win titles, but they compete hard and win or lose at least we know that we go out each time and compete against the best.

That being said I feel that the team tournament should be classed, and have at least 3 classes to give every team a shot.  I can see peoples points about class wrestling, but I think that while the non-class indivdual fans often times won't hear the class fans side, it is equally as close minded for those who want a classed tournament to just blow off everybody elses thoughts because they disagree with them.  The fact is that no matter how you put it the individual touurnament is a one on one competion,  and the reason for it is to find out who the best wrestlers are.  It is not to be watered down, it is for the best of the best.  Again it only takes an individual.  The team portion is for the best TEAM, and that takes 14 guys, thus obviously smaller schools are at  a disadvantage, and I think that most reasonable people could agree it should be classed.  I think the real hot-botton issue is with the indidual tournament, and I think that there are arguaments for both sides of it, and honestly from reading the posts i feel that the non-class arguments are just as well thought out and make as much sense if not more that the classed arguments, but are shot down by a close-minded but louder minority.

[Y2CJ41]

Last year the IHSAA announced that the top four from regional were advancing to the semi-state level.  This means that it is watering down the semi-state tournament.  Did you like this idea or would you favor only the top two from regionals advancing to the semi-state level over top four.

[IUBjj171]

Mater Dei IS 2A

[Y2CJ41]

And Mater Dei has 99% graduation rate and 95% of their students go on to college.  When you find a public school of any size with statistics like those please tell me.  Those statistics alone show me that Mater Dei is worlds different than a public school the same size. 

[ENoblewrestling]

I dont think this was a bad move, because in the end it is not changing the integrity of the state finals.  As I said earlier I do understand a lot of what the class wrestling argument is trying to say.  I also agree that it is good to give wrestlers more chances and oppurtunities at success, and advancing four definiantly does that.  What I disagree with is that we need to expand the finals into a classed tournament because it is basically saying that you are worse because you go to a smaller school.  I would even be for expanding the number who make it to state, but I do not think there should be seperations for classes.  If we took 32 to state and the 16 extra kids that make it in are from big schools so be it.  They are the 16 next best, they earned it.  Also what about if a kid moves to a small school from a big school, like Braxton this year, he's had a good year, and hopefully it continues past Saturday.  Was he at some disadvantage because he went from a bigger school to a smaller school?  If we were classed wouldn't the fact that he was from a bigger school originally put all of the smaller school kids at a disadvantage?

[IUBjj171]

And Mater Dei has 99% graduation rate and 95% of their students go on to college.  When you find a public school of any size with statistics like those please tell me.  Those statistics alone show me that Mater Dei is worlds different than a public school the same size. 

Yes the graduation rates are different. If had gone to mater dei (thank god I didn't) my parents would have killed me to be paying that much and flunked.

 

But you avoided the argument. So they are private. But their kids play 2-3 sports. Are thy forced to wrestle no. They just have a lot of family that wrestles. You look at the rosters there are sims, boots, weinzapfels, goebels everywhere. The kids want to wrestle. They weren't recruited ( I hope not haha jk). My junior year they had a full varsity and two full jv squads.

 

second of all having a multisport school can help. I played football and my coach told two of my friends who were linemen if they wanted to play varsity they should wrestle because it will make them more athletic and coordinated. Itts true. Better tackling and coordination. They did it. We are a 5A school and our coach didn't care if they were missing offseason workouts. He knew they would be better off. Try getting your schools football coach on board. Help fill those bigger weights. Coaches work together in the offseason.

 

I just don't think classing individual is the answer. No reason for anyone to be I'm

ature about anything. No political agenda. No I win you lose. Just this is myopinion based on these facts/ views.

[Y2CJ41]

I dont think this was a bad move, because in the end it is not changing the integrity of the state finals. 

So you don't want to water down state, but you're fine with watering down the other levels of the tournament.  Interesting to say the least.

 

As I said earlier I do understand a lot of what the class wrestling argument is trying to say.  I also agree that it is good to give wrestlers more chances and oppurtunities at success, and advancing four definiantly does that.  What I disagree with is that we need to expand the finals into a classed tournament because it is basically saying that you are worse because you go to a smaller school. 

The statistics state if you are a state qualifier you are 3X more likely to be from a small school, isn't that stating you aren't as likely to be good if you are from a small school?  You don't need to say it, the facts speak for themselves.  

 

I would even be for expanding the number who make it to state, but I do not think there should be seperations for classes.  If we took 32 to state and the 16 extra kids that make it in are from big schools so be it.  They are the 16 next best, they earned it. 

Just a minute ago, you said not to water down the state finals, but now you are saying you wouldn't mind more kids being allowed to go to state aka watering it down.  Can you make up your mind?  Are you saying that when Churubusco went to semi-state in football a couple years ago they didn't earn it because it was in a classed format?  Are you saying that all the wrestlers that qualify for state in classed states don't earn it?  Do you think for some odd reason that since something is classed people don't work hard at it?

 

Also what about if a kid moves to a small school from a big school, like Braxton this year, he's had a good year, and hopefully it continues past Saturday.  Was he at some disadvantage because he went from a bigger school to a smaller school?  If we were classed wouldn't the fact that he was from a bigger school originally put all of the smaller school kids at a disadvantage?

He was at an advantage at a bigger school because he could probably just concentrate on wrestling and wrestling only.  He could go to open mats in the fall and get the rust off a lot quicker than if he played football like he probably did at Busco.  If he wrestled year round, yes it would be an advantage since the small school kids would most likely be playing football and running track or playing baseball.  Right now one of your kids is having a hard time deciding on playing baseball or wrestling in the spring.  He wants to help the baseball team, but wants to also get to the next level in wrestling.  If he is at Carroll, the decision is simple, wrestle.

[JC3390]

If this generation divides wrestling into 3 classes, the next will want 6, and the next will want 12 ?

I guess at some point we could just make everyone a State Champion just for participating?  Now I realize that this is a ridiculous argument, but change always brings with it unintended consequences.

 

The thing that I have always loved about wrestling is that unlike most other sports ?you? are rewarded for ?your? hard work up to the limits of ?your? resolve and ?your? ability.  When you reach those limits you reach the limits of your personal success.  Why is it that so many people want to turn wrestling into a sport much like others where the bar is lowered to accommodate those who lack resolve or who have attained the limit of their ability? 

People today are too quick to blame others for their shortfalls and too slow to determine to improve their situation through hard work. 

 

We are where we are because of decisions that we have made and not because we are being treated unfairly.  If programs are suffering it is because coaches, administrators, parents, and athletes made choices that looked good at the time but had unintended consequences.  If programs are excelling it is because coaches, administrators, parents, and athletes made good decisions that helped them get to where they are. 

 

In life there are always those who have an easier path just because of circumstances.  There are also those who have to struggle for everything. 

We are who we are because of what we have had to overcome and not because of what we have been given.

 

[ENoblewrestling]

First off what I am saying is that I am not for dividing the finals into classes, I agree that I may not have been as clear as what I could have. What I should have said is that I am all for expanding the tournament in a reasonable way as long as it is the best that make it, not a classed version because some smaller schools are not as good.

 

As for the second statement I have said on the site several times that I am for a classed team portion, so no I do not take anything away from our football team for making it to semi-state in a classed team format.  In an individual tournament, it is for the individual, not the team.  What if track was classed, it is an individual sport.  Are you telling me that if a kid wins small state running like say a 11.2 100, and the slowest time for a qualifrer in the big class is like 11.3 that the kid "winning" the small state had really accomplished what the others had?

 

I know what my kids are thinking about other sports, I encourage them to play other atheletics because it will help all of our programs, and the coaches here work together.  The athelete that you are talking about is very dedicated to wrestling and will put it first, and find times to do other sports in the spring, and I hope fall as well.  Look at the post with state ranked kids participating in more that one sport.  If its such a big deal why is Bellmont so good everyear?  Nearly their whole lineup is in multiple sports.  What about kids like Schendel, McCray, Novy, Mornue (sp) for you guys they all play other sports from what ive heard, and they seem to do just fine in wrestling.

[Disco]

Yeah but who said it is going to ever be classed.  As a coach I have been to all of the IHSWCA clinics over the past three years and have never heard it brought up as an option by the IHSWCA leadership.  I also feel that it is not even close to being a clear cut issue for the coaches.  It will be very interesting to see how the results of the surveys taken at sectional come out, but would bet that the classed indivdual tournament will not be the favored opionion, and if it is, it will at least be an extremely close vote.

There are alot of different opinions on this subject on this board, and more importantly held by coaches all across the state.  I think that all of them are valide, and that coaches want what they feel is best for their kids, and the sport.  

I myself coach at a small school and have seen some of our top guys fall out of the tournament early, if it was classed we would have had a few extra kids make it to state, but in my opionion they had great seasons regaurdless, and by making it to the round to go in semi-state showed that they on an individual basis could contend with anybody in the state.  We did not need to go against small school kids, we had 5 seniors last year that could compete with anybody, and this year we have a group of kids that can do the same, they may not get to state or win titles, but they compete hard and win or lose at least we know that we go out each time and compete against the best.

That being said I feel that the team tournament should be classed, and have at least 3 classes to give every team a shot.  I can see peoples points about class wrestling, but I think that while the non-class indivdual fans often times won't hear the class fans side, it is equally as close minded for those who want a classed tournament to just blow off everybody elses thoughts because they disagree with them.  The fact is that no matter how you put it the individual touurnament is a one on one competion,  and the reason for it is to find out who the best wrestlers are.  It is not to be watered down, it is for the best of the best.  Again it only takes an individual.  The team portion is for the best TEAM, and that takes 14 guys, thus obviously smaller schools are at  a disadvantage, and I think that most reasonable people could agree it should be classed.  I think the real hot-botton issue is with the indidual tournament, and I think that there are arguaments for both sides of it, and honestly from reading the posts i feel that the non-class arguments are just as well thought out and make as much sense if not more that the classed arguments, but are shot down by a close-minded but louder minority.

Another good reasonable post.